Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
More on Taxation and Spending for Yanks
compassionate_warrior
Veteran
Today I heard a radio report that alarmed me. The topic was the discussions going on in the US Congress on how to balance the budget in the face of an astronomically increasing deficit. Congress (both parties) are discussing ways of cutting domestic spending: cutting Medicare, adjusting Social Security in various ways, etc. President Obama, in contrast, favors raising taxes on the rich. Members of the public were interviewed to get their opinion. Most said that cuts are necessary, even working-class and lower-middle-class people said this. Or at least, these were the interviews selected for the report, produced by the Pew Research group.
I see several fallacies going into the popular opinions expressed, and the Congressional agenda. I think there is no question Obama's position is the correct one. The apparent ignorance of the voting public is puzzling, perhaps the result of a propaganda campaign...??
1) Domestic spending hasn't been cut sufficiently, the government is being profligate with regard to domestic spending.
2) Cutting domestic spending is the only option.
3) Raising taxes on the rich is for some reason unacceptable or impractical or counter-productive.
The above statements are false.
1) Domestic spending has already been cut (beginning about 10 years ago, with George W. Bush) to the point that Fed and state gov't jobs have been slashed, increasing the demand for unemployment payments, welfare, food stamps and other government aid (how does this solve anything?). Infrastructure, transportation, schools, and other sectors are suffering. Any more cuts, and the US is at very real risk of sliding into 3rd World status, with no possibility in sight for correcting that.
2) The US debt has spiraled out of control because of all the foreign wars the US is involved in. Why is cutting military spending and getting out of one or more of the wars not up for discussion? That's clearly the source of the problem, in combination with tax cuts initiated in the Reagan era and increased by G.W. Bush
3) The top US tax rate used to be 90% for individuals. Society, businesses and business owners prospered. More typical rates were 50-60% for upper-middle-class tax brackets (lawyers, doctors, mid-range business owners). This didn't present a hardship for anyone then, why should it now? We don't need to bring back a 90% tax rate, but 65-70% as a top rate is perfectly reasonable. It worked fine before, it can work again.
It seems that Congress and the public has been convinced of precisely the scenario that corporations and conservative Republicans want them to support. It seems as though most people, including our legislators, have closed their eyes to the obvious. What's going on, some sort of mass-hypnosis?
I see several fallacies going into the popular opinions expressed, and the Congressional agenda. I think there is no question Obama's position is the correct one. The apparent ignorance of the voting public is puzzling, perhaps the result of a propaganda campaign...??
1) Domestic spending hasn't been cut sufficiently, the government is being profligate with regard to domestic spending.
2) Cutting domestic spending is the only option.
3) Raising taxes on the rich is for some reason unacceptable or impractical or counter-productive.
The above statements are false.
1) Domestic spending has already been cut (beginning about 10 years ago, with George W. Bush) to the point that Fed and state gov't jobs have been slashed, increasing the demand for unemployment payments, welfare, food stamps and other government aid (how does this solve anything?). Infrastructure, transportation, schools, and other sectors are suffering. Any more cuts, and the US is at very real risk of sliding into 3rd World status, with no possibility in sight for correcting that.
2) The US debt has spiraled out of control because of all the foreign wars the US is involved in. Why is cutting military spending and getting out of one or more of the wars not up for discussion? That's clearly the source of the problem, in combination with tax cuts initiated in the Reagan era and increased by G.W. Bush
3) The top US tax rate used to be 90% for individuals. Society, businesses and business owners prospered. More typical rates were 50-60% for upper-middle-class tax brackets (lawyers, doctors, mid-range business owners). This didn't present a hardship for anyone then, why should it now? We don't need to bring back a 90% tax rate, but 65-70% as a top rate is perfectly reasonable. It worked fine before, it can work again.
It seems that Congress and the public has been convinced of precisely the scenario that corporations and conservative Republicans want them to support. It seems as though most people, including our legislators, have closed their eyes to the obvious. What's going on, some sort of mass-hypnosis?
0
Comments
why other countries still support the dollar is a mistery.
Obama is not talking about that either, he is letting that continue. Until he does start talking about it, his position will never be correct IMO.
As far as solving the deficit problem in the US I think there needs to be an all around approach. The wars they are in are unsustainable. There needs to be cuts to social security and medicaid and defense. The republicants only want to cut the entitlement programs which is a stupid way to go about it. The US defense just increased its budget this year.
Also revenue must be increased by raising taxes on the rich. This myth that increasing taxes will destroy jobs is silly.
Tax loopholes must be closed...corporations arnt paying their fair share.
We don't have to worry about extrajudicial killings by gov't officials or the army, but we do have to worry about our economy being deliberately crippled beyond any hope of repair by what appears to be a corporate-riven propaganda machine steering citizens to vote against their own interests.
______________
Compassionate_warrior -- Could you reference some source for that? Politicians of whatever party are bought and paid for by the wealthy and the likelihood that they would be serious about a move to tax the hand that feeds them strikes me as dubious, if not ludicrous.
************************
the USA is bankrupt,
_______________
Vincenzi -- Please check this out since it is demonstrably untrue. At the most child-like level, why would other countries prop up the dollar and worry about the fate of the US economy if it weren't because the US is the place where they can unload their exports hand over fist?
**************************
What's going on, some sort of mass-hypnosis?
_______________________
Compassionate_warrior -- I agree with your astounded reaction to the fact that people would shoot themselves in the foot in order to make things better. But if you look at any corporation or religion or even family, I think you can find the same thing: To rock the boat is to threaten the comfort I have felt up until now under whatever rules. However meager and chintzy the scraps I receive -- still they are scraps of some kind and I don't want to bet them on an uncertain outcome. And therefore I will attack people in the same boat as I am who suggest that there is a need for change and improvement.
You can see the same function in Buddhist practice ... but let's not go there right now.
______________________________
Compassionate_warrior: If we were drinking beer, I believe I would argue that this is the way many people, if not most, think. Facts very rarely convince anyone. Beliefs and perceptions do. It may be sad, but I think it's true.
If someone says "we should lower taxes", people are going to jump on it. Despite the fact that 45% of American households (that's almost 1 in 2) don't have ANY Federal income tax liability this year. That means every penny they've paid in will be refunded to them. But ask them (and I'd be willing to bet you'd get about 99% of those) about how horrible their tax burden is, and you'll find they're being "taxed to death". There is no rhyme or reason to this argument whatever. Most people in the US have no conception of the FACT (and it *is* a fact) that tax rates overall are at historical lows in America. In 1944 the top tier tax rate was 92%. It remained thus until the Kennedy administration, when it was lowered to 71%. Only during the Reagan administration did we see drastic cuts to the insanely low levels we see today.
Moreover, if you ask 99.9% of Americans about cutting spending, and thus the size of the government, they'll jump right in and tell you it's a GREAT idea. Until it comes to something that affects them. Then it's not a good idea. Ask the thousands of people around my area who have been laid off from their blue collar factory jobs how good an idea it is to cut federal unemployment benefits. Not so great when that's your only source of income and you live in an economically depressed area with an unemployment rate that probably realistically tops 18-20%.
Ask Americans how great an idea cutting the size of government is, and they'll almost all tell you it's fantastic. We'll all be better off. Until you ask about cutting the number of FAA air traffic controllers. Or the number of scientists at the National Institutes of Health. Or any of 10,000 other unseen but equally critical areas.
Americans are nothing if not ignorant (and in many cases stupid) and gullible. They'll believe anything they hear on TV (especially if it's on Faux "News") as long as somebody panders to their basic underlying greed. That's what it's all about in America. Mine for me, and to hell with the rest of you losers.
It will be our undoing. It's well underway. The parallels to the end of the Roman Empire are frightening.
Anyway, it hadn't struck me that American voters might have so much in common with Soviets--thanks for opening my eyes! Times sure have changed, haven't they! We're now grateful to have any job, even if it's Wal-Mart, at least it's a steady paycheck (worthless health benefits, but HEY, it's a job!), we have cars, but we can no longer afford the gas,so we're grateful for our "meager scraps" (those of us who haven't lost our homes to dodgy loans). But you know, we still don't have universal health care or free university education, so our version of the Worker's Paradise lags behind in some important respects. hmmm..... On the other hand, we DO have government surveillance of the citizenry, we did, under Bush, have media that played to the party line and was afraid to criticize, we do live with fear of enemy infiltration to the point that we've given up certain personal liberties, like freedom from unreasonable search (at the airports), so we have a lot of the downside, we just aren't getting the freebies--health care and higher education. That's the reason Soviet citizens received tiny salaries, you know; 80% of what they earned went to the government, only it was a hidden tax, they never knew it was there until the system collapsed and the tax came above-board. They discovered it was 60%- 80%! That's what it takes to get some good freebies, as well as a few wars now and then (Afghanistan, notably), a formidable surveillance bureaucracy (coming soon to a neighborhood near you!
@ Jeffrey, Mountains is referring to the fact that nearly half of the population is in the lowest tax bracket (or below the poverty line), and so their deductible expenses (health care expenses, kids if any, etc.) will result in them paying no tax. I haven't owed tax for years, myself. But it's interesting that it's 45%--do you have a reference for that? So it means that 45% is paying no tax because they're in a low tax bracket (or are below the poverty line and pay no tax anyway), the solidly middle-class are paying what--25% - 32%? The rich and obscenely rich pay...the top rate is no higher than 45%, might be lower, does anyone know? (Not counting deductions of various sorts.) And this is supposed to be sustaining a major country?
To borrow a bit of Zen text: "Sentient beings are primarily all Buddha./ It is like ice and water: Without water no ice can exist." This is not just some hoity-toity religious fortune cookie. It is an encouragement to get our own houses in order, to move through the thicket of the world without clutching distinctions. It doesn't mean there aren't differences: Stupid is stupid; smart is smart. It just means to get our own houses in order.
Just noodling.
Do you know the old joke from the Soviet times? The two main newspapers were: Pravda (Truth) and Isvestiya (News). The joke was that "Pravda has no izvestiya, and Izvestiya has no Pravda". This is the state of our news media today. As Paul McCartney famously sang, "Back in the USSR!" (America today).
Could anybody please give this at least thirty minutes of your time?
Yup..we just can't get things right. There is obviously ways to cut the spending and cut the debt, but it won't be done.
Example-
We have military bases all over the world that are just not needed anymore. We have allies all over the world who would let us their bases if our help is needed. All of them should be closed.
While we are at it, let the US stop being "The World Police". We should only be involved if really does threaten the world. Example..our entry into WWII because of the Nazis.
We need to shrink the bloated, wastefull government that has too many employees that are being paid better overall than the private sector.
and on..and on..
The problems? Greed and Lust for power.
Big Money/Corporations own our governemnt..they put up the money to get people elected and expect payback. There is too much money made/power given to those who are profiting off of all the things that need to be done, so it just won't change.
The US is NOT a Constituional Republic anymore..it's a Ogliarcy ruled by those with the biggest bank accounts, which translates to power. Don't get me wrong as I love my country and capitalism, but we are at a point where things are falling apart because the leaders have lost sight of what really matters-the people of the US. Add in the laziness/apathy of the average American, and it is a forumla for diaster..most people here don't care as long the lights are on, food is on the table and American Idol is on the TV.
We are mirroring Rome.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Probably the only consensus you'll find is among the oil companies and their investors....mumble, mumble