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If we must eliminate the "Self" to reach Enlightenment, then what is Nirvana like?
While meditating tonight, I asked myself why I'm constantly so melancholy. Obviously it has to be clinging. So after asking myself what I've been clinging to, I assumed it must be my sense of self.
I've always had the impression that to reach Nirvana, we must eliminate the idea of having our own personalities, as that has to do with permanence and the like. But what I'm wondering is this: If we get rid of our "selves" to reach Nirvana, then how exactly do we live afterwards?
Does my question make any sense? I know it makes sense in my mind... :-/
I've always had the impression that to reach Nirvana, we must eliminate the idea of having our own personalities, as that has to do with permanence and the like. But what I'm wondering is this: If we get rid of our "selves" to reach Nirvana, then how exactly do we live afterwards?
Does my question make any sense? I know it makes sense in my mind... :-/
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Comments
There is no need to eliminate a "self". The false view that there is an unchanging, unconditioned "self" or "soul" in the first place is what we need to eliminate.
There is nothing wrong with having personality. The problems arise when we believe that our personality is who we really are. If we see that personality is conditioned, like everything else, then we don't give personalities more importance than they deserve.
Metta,
Guy
for now, just don't overthink it and remember that the goal of understanding anatta is to be free from suffering.
the buddha operates from being and does what is most obvious in the given situation. thus when the buddha is hungry, he/she eats. when the buddha is hot, he/she goes into the shade. when the buddha puts his/her hand in the fire, the buddha pulls away. you could call it pure instinct or pure intuition. when the buddha needs to think, he/she thinks.
from a state of being (important to note that there is not a person being or a being there just is being) arises doing.
the buddha does verbs. meaning instead of he is walking. it's correct to say there is just walking. so walking. notice how there is a lack of subject and just the verb. that is the best way to describe it. there is only the process of doing. in doing the buddha doesn't look for results, thus in non-intention. the buddha isn't goal oriented. the buddha just does because the action has to happen. whether it is the correct action or not, the buddha does not care. for the buddha there is only perfection. it may seem like imperfection from our perspective but that is our projection of flaws. the buddha is flawless because he doesn't even define anything as such. thus the buddha only sees the buddha.
you could even say that the buddha is you already. you are conscious at times. you are here already. you see your thoughts and feelings. keep letting go of beliefs and ideas and see reality as it is. then you will wake up to what is.
metta
Recently I had a light enough touch that I was able to just turn off the idea of needing to get rid of my anxiety. It just turned off. When I did I really felt the anxiety as interesting butterflies in me. Just different types of butterflys than when I am feeling a crush. Or just some kind of emotion. But the judgement that it was wrong wasn't there. Amazing.
That turning off is not under my control but it comes from sort of light hearted calm and going forward. Turning into the situation bravely. I think because my dog died I had been practicing all day with crying and not trying to be any other way. Just letting all the waves and storms unfold.
So I think you can retrain yourself. But it might take 2 or 3 years.
As for what is nirvana like, I am pretty sure nobody here knows exactly
hahaha, yes. I have the ultimate awakened mind and and liberated fully. I know exactly what it is like
Enlightened people do have a personality. They just do not have any attachment to it. No beliefs of 'I am like this, so I must do that' etc. Not even on the subconscious level.
we live, fully reliant on wisdom
but returning to the matter of "self", in Buddhism, this is something to understand via investigation or introspection
for example, when the body becomes hungry, the mind thinks "I am hungry"
when the body or legs walk, the mind thinks "I walk"
when the body breaks, the mind thinks "I breath"
when the eyes see or the ears hear, the mind thinks "I see", "I hear"
when the nervous system feels pleasure or pain, the mind thinks "I am happy"; "I hurt"
when the reproductive system has urges, the mind thinks "I need sex"
when the mind thinks, the mind thinks "I think"
when the mind has the mood of fear or confusion, the mind thinks "I am confused", "I am scared"
the arising of "self" or "I" is the mind grasping at, appropriating, identifying with and/or taking ownership/possession of experience & mind/body functions
this process of grasping can only be understood via instrospection
so after Nirvana, life goes on because the body continues to get hungry, the body continues to breath, the eyes continue to see, the ears continue to hear, the legs continue to walk, the nervous system continues to feel, perception continues to perceive (blue, green, dog, cat, etc) and the mind continues to think & use intelligence
kind regards
When soldiers rescue their comrades in the heat of battle with no heed for enemy fire, thats practicing non-self.
The same way that the Buddha lived, freed from suffering.
'Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found.
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there.
Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it.
The path is, but no traveller on it is seen.'
Finally in the mahayana nirvana is not just the freedom from suffering. All of the knowledge veils must also be lifted. A bodhisattva is free from suffering or at least they see through it completely.
after enlightenment : Chop wood, carry water
best regards
and some good answers but none answering directly the Q without mysticism or self belief.
It seems that the ultimate goal of Buddhism is Nirvana. I feel surprised that so many of us strive and long for something which we can’t even describe in a simple word.
Is this not some form of escapism?
Our emotions lead us to feel suffering. At the same time ability to feel emotions brings many good things. Nirvana? Capability to feel just positive emotions?
However, this leads to a big pitfall.
you can describe nirvana but it only points to an experience. Just as if I taste an apple and say it tastes like a pear. That is only relevant to someone who has tasted only pears and citrus.
We have only tasted samsara so it is difficult to describe nirvana. The flipside is that we are fish and it is difficult to tell them what water is.
As an aside in Tibetan there are two separate words for good emotions and bad emotions.
Very valid point.
Can you tell me: have you had / forgetting the ‘ ‘human emotions’’ / a feel or clear realization what Nirvana is?
if you want to read more including a lot of words the Buddha used for it, you can find some information here:
http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/Ryuei/nirvana.html
Metta,
Sabre
Note: the Buddha did not speak this verse
For suffering to exist, a mind must have "self-view"
Whilst ultimately, "self" is just a misinterpretation of reality, where suffering exists, a "sufferer" must exist
Where suffering exists, the sense of "me" must exist
So I'll ask another question instead. Is anatta reached through the loss of clinging to a personality, or simply losing the personality itself? (Because I don't see how one can't have a personality.)
could you kindly explain more about what you are attempting to say about no attachment to personality?
what exactly is this "personality" you are referring to?
for example, if we read the suttas, Sariputta often describes how his mind enters & abides in various jhanas, etc, but the thought never arises "he" abided in those jhanas
the stock phrase about Sariputta is as follows:
1) Dukkha (Suffering)
2) Dukha Samudaya (The cause of suffering)
3) Dukha Nirodha (The cessation of suffering)
4) Dukha Nirodha Camini Patipada Magga (The way leading to the cessation of suffering).
That's all I can offer at the present moment.
Godd luck.
Also, Tikal2012, thank you for the advice. It's hard because I want to reach Nirvana and I wanna figure out how to do it, and I feel the question is getting in my way.
All three are expressions but they are not the refuge. They are branches of happiness but not the root. At enlightenment the heart of wisdom from grasping is what is relied upon. All of the other things radiate from that as compassion for self and others. Even after enlightenment you will have an impermanent expression of your personality, so you don't have to lose it you just have to not take refuge in your personality itself.
Form experiences form; empty of self-essence, impermanent, fully interconnected and interdependent with all other form which is forever changing and can never be pinned down. There is no Self to destroy, only the thoughts or perspective of there being a Self to begin with.
For if it were you or yours, you can just tell your suffering to go away and it would
No agency or control therefore exists or is possible because suffering is not me, not mine
Likewise, even selfview is not me, not mine, for if it were you or yours, you can just tell your selfview to go away and you would become enlightened in a minute
But this is not possible because no agency or control exists or is possible because self-view is not me, not mine
Self-view is simply a mental formation that dependently originates without agency or self
Suffering is also a mental formation (coupled with various feelings and sensations) that dependently originates without agency or self
(This topic is elucidated in the anattalakkhana sutta)
Your post has dreadfully confused the Three Characteristics with the Four Noble Truths
Of course suffering can be controlled to go away thru practise.
One can become enlightened (stream entry) in a minute.
Dukkhalakkana is an insight knowledge not to be confused with dukkha as mental affliction
The Buddha taught anatta so there can be freedom from self-view.
The realisation of anatta and self-view cannot exist together.
This topic is elucided in the teachings on Dependent Origination, where suffering is a mental formation that dependently originates due to ignorance, as follows: So the fabrication of 'self' may originate without agency/self but the origination creates the illusion/delusion of agencey/self.
This topic is not elucidated in the Anattalakkhana Sutta.
When the Anattalakkhana Sutta speaks the following words, it is not discussing the dependent origination of dukkha. It is discussing how the five aggregates are subject to decay. The Pali word translated as "affliction" is not 'dukkha'. It is 'ābādhāya', which means 'illness' or 'disease'. For example, when Ajahn Chah suffered from dementia in his old age, his sankhara khanda was afflicted with disease.
As for controlling the mind so it is free from psychological dukkha, although Ajahn Chah had dementia, he never once demonstrated his sankhara khanda was capable of concocting the dukkha of dependent origination.
Regards
If partially enlightened, with partial Nibbana, yes, it is possible to suffer again.
We can of course doubt if there is full enlightenment, or if the Buddha was fully enlightened (up to the point of stream-entry or so they say). This makes us investigate what enlightenment truly is, because if we do not know it then we can not judge it; when we know it, our doubts will find answers.
And yes I am aware of the difference between dukkha as a characteristic of phenomenon and dukkha as mental affliction.
All I am saying is that whatever manifest, there is no agency, control, because they are not me, not mine.
Doesn't mean nothing can be done to influence them. Although you can't force away the experience of smelling something rotten by thinking "may the smelling stop right now", for example, intention to move away from that location may arise leading to actions leading the end of smelling something rotten. No agency or control is involved, only influences and dependent arisings of various mental and physical factors aka nama rupa.
Likewise we cannot force suffering out by control, but there is something that can be done to end suffering and that is by practicing the eightfold path.
The characteristic of all phenomena, be they afflictive or not, are anicca dukkha anatta. Anatta is not a state wherein the sense of self and suffering are absent, rather it is a fact of all phenomenon.
Anattalakkhana sutta:
...“Mental formations are not self. If mental formations were self, mental formations would not lead to affliction. It would be possible to say regarding mental formations, ‘Let mental formations be like this. Let mental formations not be like that.’ However, since mental formations are not self, mental formations lead to affliction. And it is not possible to say regarding mental formations, ‘Let mental formations be like this. Let mental formations not be like that.’...