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that is zen, and from what i have gathered about zen buddhism it seems to be kind of like a slack, contradicting hippish school, just my opinion
Try attending a Zen medatation retreat and getting up a 3AM to meditate until 10 PM, the world slack does not fit in there, hehe.
From what I understand regarding the teachings and practice of "be in the present moment, etc", which is a very popular teaching in Zen, it simply means to live "in your body" instead of "in your head", if that makes sense. For example, living in your body would mean that when you are sweeping the floor, your full attention is focused on sweeping the floor. "In your head" would mean that when you are sweeping the floor, you are thinking about that hot girl you saw at the club last night and you accidentally fall off the steps and break the broom.
I belong to no specific school of buddhism and know little of zen and just voiced my opinion which is obviously based on a small amount of knowledge. It just seems sometimes that the phrases or teachings are contradicting or simple, or they make little sense to me...
Whack me with a stick, I probably need it lol. My back often slackens in meditation.
I watched some youtube vids on zen, it says that the mind works on its own, the body works on its own, we merely rent the body and mind, so there is no self. So there is a consciousness.. Which is what>? If you can remain in the present 24/7 you would never be able to plan things for the future
In Buddhism, we stress focusing on the present moment. Meditation is all about being present, watching what's happening NOW. So I ask, does the present moment even exist?
Open and close your fist. What is that? Is there time in there or is time something we ourselves have invented to put those things in order. Yesterday, the last moment, where has it gone and what was it? I have heard my Roshi say movement is time. The sound you hear, is that inside/outside? Where? Is the sound separate from what is hearing? Marvellous!
Meditation, insight, whatever it is called, will always be far more interesting (IMO) than book knowledge, or even opinions. Unti then, I remember I asked like crazy the hell out of anyone I thought "knew". Thanks for the question and the smile.
mostly self-inquiry and opening up to feeling the stillness from the neck down. within you right now is a nothingness and that is where concepts do not go. there is no boundary or defining characteristics to this nothingness. i suppose you could call it a stillness or openness. that nothingness has always been there your whole life and always will be. think of it as like the sky. in this sky there are clouds, which could be thought of as thoughts and feelings and such. the constant is the nothingness or the sky which is always there. then you realize that this nothingness is aware of itself. so nothingness is aware of nothingness.
Hi t
Why would stillness be focussed only in one part of the body, and moreso how is this so called nothingness different from what is formed? It is never absent anyway. Of course this is cheap, misguiding talk so I will stop it now _/\_ but FWIW.
Are you sure, little koala? (Yankee, got it, and danke )
I agree with the Floating Abu. Are you sure, little koala?
The path is to use logic (right understanding: samma ditthi) to destroy logic (that is, develop clear light samadhi) to develop insight (vipassana: direct seeing) which transforms the mind (citta) to have perfect "logic" or intelligence (enlightenment).
Often practitioners regard clear light samadhi as enlightenment but they are still two steps back.
Their minds are "spacing out" rather than "seeing clearly the true nature of all things"
Why would stillness be focused only in one part of the body, and moreso how is this so called nothingness different from what is formed? It is never absent anyway. Of course this is cheap, misguiding talk.
Again, I agree with the Floating Abu. This is cheap, misguiding talk.
"Stillness" is not something mental. All mentality is impermanent, in a state of flux & has periods where it is "absent".
To regard consciousness as permanent, "one" and never absent is the realm & beguilement of Brahma or "God".
There is a stillness that is never absent but this stillness is not something mental. It is the asankhata dhatu (unconditioned element) but it is not a nama dhamma (mental element).
Not being something mental, this stillness cannot "be focused" nor can it focus. The mind can only experience & merge with this stillness but this stillness is not the mind.
Indeed, this sphere of nothingness is not different from what is formed because both are conditioned impermanent phenomena.
But the stillness element (asankhata dhatu) is different from form because the stillness element is unconditioned.
Regards
:mullet:
One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of nothingness, that would be fabricated'.
Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Elements
There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element.
When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.
Krishna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme God. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.
it exists, of course it exists mountains, just when you come to think about it, it has faded away and then it doesn't exist, and whilst you contemplate that moment, you are in a different present moment. So when you are in a deep meditation, no thoughts clouding your mind, no words or chatter crossing your forehead, everything clear and calm, is that not the present moment in flow?
If you want to get freaky and think about the speed of the brain as it processes input, you'd could say that we never actually exist in the moment. We only exist in the past because when something occurs, we have to process it first. So the physical body is in the present, but consciousness is always in the past. :eek2: You've now entered... The Twilight Zone!
That's actually a really interesting question. The thing that the Buddha taught is called 'dependent origination.' It's effectively his theory of everything that explains exactly how reality functions. According to this dhamma you have an object, you have a sense faculty, these two come together, and sense-based consciousness arises, these three things together are called sense contact (Phassa). With sense contact as condition, feeling arises. With feeling as condition, craving arises. With craving as condition, clinging, and with clinging as condition habitual tendency. Everything in this dependently originating process takes places sequentially. From contact to clinging, is considered one thought moment. Our experiential reality is effectively an un-ending stream of these dependently originating thought moments. These are the building blocks of time. When the Buddha tells you to be aware of whats happening in the present moment, he's really telling you to be aware of what your mind is doing. If at the present moment you are experiencing an unwholesome state (the five hindrances - anger, lust, slothfulness, restlessness, or uncertainty), you immediately let go of the thoughts (clinging), and relax the tension in your mind and in your body (craving - the cause of suffering [second noble truth]). You are now experiencing the third noble truth (the cessation of suffering). If you practice this letting go of craving enough times in conjunction with the eight fold path (the way leading to the cessation of suffering - the fourth noble truth), then you will experience all of the Jhanas, you will see dependent origination occur, and through seeing with this wisdom your taints will be destroyed and you will be a fully awakened Buddha, or as they were referred to in the times of the Buddha, an Arahant. Good luck. . .
That's actually a really interesting question. The thing that the Buddha taught is called 'dependent origination.' It's effectively his theory of everything that explains exactly how reality functions. According to this dhamma you have an object, you have a sense faculty, these two come together, and sense-based consciousness arises, these three things together are called sense contact (Phassa). With sense contact as condition, feeling arises. With feeling as condition, craving arises. With craving as condition, clinging, and with clinging as condition habitual tendency. Everything in this dependently originating process takes places sequentially. From contact to clinging, is considered one thought moment. Our experiential reality is effectively an un-ending stream of these dependently originating thought moments. These are the building blocks of time. When the Buddha tells you to be aware of whats happening in the present moment, he's really telling you to be aware of what your mind is doing. If at the present moment you are experiencing an unwholesome state (the five hindrances - anger, lust, slothfulness, restlessness, or uncertainty), you immediately let go of the thoughts (clinging), and relax the tension in your mind and in your body (craving - the cause of suffering [second noble truth]). You are now experiencing the third noble truth (the cessation of suffering). If you practice this letting go of craving enough times in conjunction with the eight fold path (the way leading to the cessation of suffering - the fourth noble truth), then you will experience all of the Jhanas, you will see dependent origination occur, and through seeing with this wisdom your taints will be destroyed and you will be a fully awakened Buddha, or as they were referred to in the times of the Buddha, an Arahant. Good luck. . .
Wow - I've never heard it explained like that. Thank you, this really helped bring my practice full circle and brought clarity to the path.
The present moment is non-self because we cannot find the self of it. Look for it. It is divided into infinitely thin pieces. It is impermanent. Its just the Eckhardt Tolle clap trap that people think of. The present moment is not reliable because it will pass and the new present moment may not suit us. Therefore take refuge in the clarity openness and sensitivity of your awareness which is always here.
The mind consciousness, the organs of senses, and the physical input. None of them is a self of the present moment. Since the present moment is in none of these it cannot be found.
I belong to no specific school of buddhism and know little of zen and just voiced my opinion which is obviously based on a small amount of knowledge. It just seems sometimes that the phrases or teachings are contradicting or simple, or they make little sense to me...
Whack me with a stick, I probably need it lol. My back often slackens in meditation.
I watched some youtube vids on zen, it says that the mind works on its own, the body works on its own, we merely rent the body and mind, so there is no self. So there is a consciousness.. Which is what>? If you can remain in the present 24/7 you would never be able to plan things for the future
Tom -- No need to be diffident ... at least not with me. Never doubt your practice. Just practice.
The reason Zen seems contradictory, simplistic and, well, too confusing to be worth the price of admission is ... well, Zen is trying to get to the heart of things and sometimes it bends over backwards so far in that direction that it can seem to fall on its ass.
On the other hand, a lot of pretty sharp guys and gals come out of the Zen tradition, so maybe it's more than an ornate fortune cookie or an apostate teaching. Remember, I said "maybe" not "fershur."
Zen, like all other sects I know of in Buddhism, does not teach that there is no self. It teaches that there is no abiding self. This observation is readily verifiable by anyone. Look at your past. Can you grasp it or keep it or wrap it up in a Christmas box? No. Why? The past is gone and cannot be grasped. Now look at your future. Can you grasp or keep it or wrap it up in a Christmas box? No. Why? Because the future has not come and cannot be grasped. Is any of this really too complex or ornate? It strikes me as pretty plain stuff.
And if it is clear that neither past nor future can be grasped, boxed or whatever, what happens in the present? The mind may say, "Oh yeah -- I know what the present is because I am living in it." But think a minute ... by the time you make any observation about the present -- any observation whatsoever -- it has already become past and ... well, the past cannot be grasped.
Zen, or any other Buddhism, sounds complicated sometimes because we want to be in control. With enough explanations and enough tearful or solemn beliefs, we think we can beat Buddhism into submission, that we can make it our own, that, in short, we don't have any work to do ... all we have to do is loll around in the Dharma and learn long words. But it doesn't work. Control doesn't work. Lack of control doesn't work. Smooth talking doesn't work. Why? Because there is no abiding self and this current thing we call self simply cannot ABIDE that truth. It's too scary or big or confusing or ... well, pick your excuse.
If you'd like to plan something, Zen is like the Boy Scouts and urges people to "be prepared." Practice and be prepared. But it also has another quite sensible observation to make: "Understanding is knowing to get out of the way of an on-coming bus. Practice is for the bus you didn't see coming."
Practice builds a foundation of strength and receptiveness and ability...so when you get hit by life's buses, well, as the bumper sticker says, "Shit happens." It's just true and getting our tails in a twist about it is largely extra.
Comments
From what I understand regarding the teachings and practice of "be in the present moment, etc", which is a very popular teaching in Zen, it simply means to live "in your body" instead of "in your head", if that makes sense. For example, living in your body would mean that when you are sweeping the floor, your full attention is focused on sweeping the floor. "In your head" would mean that when you are sweeping the floor, you are thinking about that hot girl you saw at the club last night and you accidentally fall off the steps and break the broom.
______________________
Sez who?! :nyah:
Whack me with a stick, I probably need it lol. My back often slackens in meditation.
I watched some youtube vids on zen, it says that the mind works on its own, the body works on its own, we merely rent the body and mind, so there is no self. So there is a consciousness.. Which is what>? If you can remain in the present 24/7 you would never be able to plan things for the future
The sound you hear, is that inside/outside? Where? Is the sound separate from what is hearing? Marvellous!
Meditation, insight, whatever it is called, will always be far more interesting (IMO) than book knowledge, or even opinions. Unti then, I remember I asked like crazy the hell out of anyone I thought "knew". Thanks for the question and the smile.
:buck:
Why would stillness be focussed only in one part of the body, and moreso how is this so called nothingness different from what is formed? It is never absent anyway. Of course this is cheap, misguiding talk so I will stop it now _/\_ but FWIW.
Best wishes,
Abu
So are you now declaring you are "one who knows" (buddha)?
Are you declaring you have ceased to chase those who speak with flowery language?
:bowdown:
The path is to use logic (right understanding: samma ditthi) to destroy logic (that is, develop clear light samadhi) to develop insight (vipassana: direct seeing) which transforms the mind (citta) to have perfect "logic" or intelligence (enlightenment).
Often practitioners regard clear light samadhi as enlightenment but they are still two steps back.
Their minds are "spacing out" rather than "seeing clearly the true nature of all things"
Regards
"Stillness" is not something mental. All mentality is impermanent, in a state of flux & has periods where it is "absent".
To regard consciousness as permanent, "one" and never absent is the realm & beguilement of Brahma or "God".
There is a stillness that is never absent but this stillness is not something mental. It is the asankhata dhatu (unconditioned element) but it is not a nama dhamma (mental element).
Not being something mental, this stillness cannot "be focused" nor can it focus. The mind can only experience & merge with this stillness but this stillness is not the mind.
Indeed, this sphere of nothingness is not different from what is formed because both are conditioned impermanent phenomena.
But the stillness element (asankhata dhatu) is different from form because the stillness element is unconditioned.
Regards
:mullet:
its all about remembering.
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=867&bih=491&q=surangama+sutra&btnG=Google+Search
That sutra might be of interest to see that the mind doesn't reside anywhere or nowhere including the present moment.
Dazzle, my friend. Yes, I studied Zen. But who knows ... maybe I gave it up for Lent.
The reason Zen seems contradictory, simplistic and, well, too confusing to be worth the price of admission is ... well, Zen is trying to get to the heart of things and sometimes it bends over backwards so far in that direction that it can seem to fall on its ass.
On the other hand, a lot of pretty sharp guys and gals come out of the Zen tradition, so maybe it's more than an ornate fortune cookie or an apostate teaching. Remember, I said "maybe" not "fershur."
Zen, like all other sects I know of in Buddhism, does not teach that there is no self. It teaches that there is no abiding self. This observation is readily verifiable by anyone. Look at your past. Can you grasp it or keep it or wrap it up in a Christmas box? No. Why? The past is gone and cannot be grasped. Now look at your future. Can you grasp or keep it or wrap it up in a Christmas box? No. Why? Because the future has not come and cannot be grasped. Is any of this really too complex or ornate? It strikes me as pretty plain stuff.
And if it is clear that neither past nor future can be grasped, boxed or whatever, what happens in the present? The mind may say, "Oh yeah -- I know what the present is because I am living in it." But think a minute ... by the time you make any observation about the present -- any observation whatsoever -- it has already become past and ... well, the past cannot be grasped.
Zen, or any other Buddhism, sounds complicated sometimes because we want to be in control. With enough explanations and enough tearful or solemn beliefs, we think we can beat Buddhism into submission, that we can make it our own, that, in short, we don't have any work to do ... all we have to do is loll around in the Dharma and learn long words. But it doesn't work. Control doesn't work. Lack of control doesn't work. Smooth talking doesn't work. Why? Because there is no abiding self and this current thing we call self simply cannot ABIDE that truth. It's too scary or big or confusing or ... well, pick your excuse.
If you'd like to plan something, Zen is like the Boy Scouts and urges people to "be prepared." Practice and be prepared. But it also has another quite sensible observation to make: "Understanding is knowing to get out of the way of an on-coming bus. Practice is for the bus you didn't see coming."
Practice builds a foundation of strength and receptiveness and ability...so when you get hit by life's buses, well, as the bumper sticker says, "Shit happens." It's just true and getting our tails in a twist about it is largely extra.
Sorry for all the talk.