NED's and how the mind separates the brain

ThailandTom

http://www.mikepettigrew.com/afterlife/html/dutch_study.html

person

Reading about NDE's has helped convince me that the mind is not just produced by the brain. Also read up about some of the scientific experiments on psychic phenomena, like the sense of being stared at, pets knowing when their owners are coming home, or thinking of someone just before they phone, done by Rupert Sheldrake if you want more convincing.

http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html

compassionate_warrior

One of the common experiences cited in the article was "communication with light"--dig it!
The breakthrough theory here, IMO, is the one about consciousness being a type of electromagnetic wave that the brain receives, not generates, but receives, like a radio. So if the brain is a receiver for this electromagnetic consciousness, then...what (Who?) is generating it? Where does it originate? Talk about food for thought!!

Thank you so much for this, Tom. :om:

zidangus

Some people do not agree with Sheldrake methods, John Maddox is having none of it :rolleyes:




With Metta

zidangus

Here is a BBC documentary I found on this

http://www.archive.org/details/BbcHereticSeriesEp.3RupertSheldrakeMorphogeneticFields

With Metta

zidangus

After watching the documentary, I have to say I am not convinced, and the experimental results shown in the documentary are not supportive to his theory, tough it is an old documentary so if anyone has new results please cite the journal they appear in, it would be interesting to read the paper.

Anyway it is good that people stand up against the establishment with new ideas, scientists should not be afraid to put their theories across, its a bit sad the reaction that Rupert Sheldrake from the scientific community so good on him for standing up to them.


With Metta

taiyaki

i watched this a couple weeks ago and ajahn brahm talks about NDEs.
i always recalled from some "random enlightened dude" that the mind was like running and consciousness was the legs.
is consciousness a function of higher brain? can consciousness exist without the mind?

interesting topic. i'd love to hear some experiences or thoughts!

Dakini

is consciousness a function of higher brain? can consciousness exist without the mind?

interesting topic. i'd love to hear some experiences or thoughts!

Interesting topic, indeed! But first, some definitions: what are you calling the "higher brain"? Is that what some people refer to as the "higher self"? Can consciousness exist without mind: how are you defining "mind"? Is "mind" the brain, or are "mind" and "consciousness" the same thing? According to the article in the OP, consciousness can and does exist independent of the brain.

person

After watching the documentary, I have to say I am not convinced, and the experimental results shown in the documentary are not supportive to his theory, tough it is an old documentary so if anyone has new results please cite the journal they appear in, it would be interesting to read the paper.

Anyway it is good that people stand up against the establishment with new ideas, scientists should not be afraid to put their theories across, its a bit sad the reaction that Rupert Sheldrake from the scientific community so good on him for standing up to them.


With Metta

Thanks for sharing that documentary. Yeah, I'm with you on his theory of morphic resonance and morphic fields, it's interesting but still very speculative and needs a lot more evidence. To his credit he does seem to be putting his ideas forward in a scientific way that requires testing and is thus subject to being either proven or disproven.

Its his experiments on certain psychic phenomena that I find very convincing. Here's a long talk he gave at google on this.



Links to his results of these experiments
The sense of being stared at:
http://www.sheldrake.org/Articles&Papers/papers/staring/sofbstat_abs.html
http://www.sheldrake.org/Articles&Papers/papers/staring/

Animals who know when their owners are coming home:
http://www.sheldrake.org/Articles&Papers/papers/animals/dog_video_abs.html

Telephone telepathy (thinking of someone just before they call):
http://www.sheldrake.org/Articles&Papers/papers/telepathy/Nolan.html

Zenshin

@taiyaki

Thanks for the vid.

Zenshin

OK I'm going to relate an experience, I'm not going into the dull whys and wherefores but a few years back I ODed on some powerful drugs and it relates to what Ajahn Brahm says in the vid about how we create our own reality relating to death and what happens after we die. I have no idea if I actually died during this experience, but considering I've been told that they were pumping my chest in the ambulance and that I spent two hours in Resus section of A+E before spending a while in intensive care on a ventilator I think things must have been pretty touch and go. I really can't be sure if this was just something that went on in my head or was an actual experience.

At the time I guess you could have called my beliefs pagan mysticism. While I was out I found myself on a stone stairway leading up into the sky, when I reached the top there was a broad meadow in which was a stone circle I remember seeing lots of god and other figures from celtic myth and they were saluting me, I think the docs must've shocked me back into my body at that point because I seem to remember things going dark.

Discussing the experience later, someone said to me did you see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I said no, explaining what had gone on. I also stated that I thought the experience depended on the mindset of the individual involved. A Christian might have a vision of Jesus, a Hindu might see Krishna etc.

Dakini

Traveller, you're right; I've read that people of different cultures/religions see figures from their own tradition, but the common point is that everyone sees a divine being, if they get that far, and not everyone does.

ThailandTom

@taiyaki I saw that brahm talk as well. There was a guy who was born with 1% of a brain, the rest was cranial fluid and not actually a functioning brain, so he in fact had 1% of a brain, yet had a degree in mathematics.. There are so many little events that have happened, so many things he talks about, and if he is true to his word and not defying the precept, then you got to believe this stuff really coming from a monk.
Things such as people who have been in a coma for a few weeks with a brain tumor, then when they actually come to the point of dying, sit up and talk for a couple of minutes to their loved ones and then die. Ajhan Brahm stated that the dying process is not something you can put an exact time on, it takes several minutes as he has watched many people die.
There was a guy who was in such a deep meditation at home, he had lost all of his 5 senses and was in a deep focused state. His wife found him and tried pulling at him etc and he would not react. She thought he was dead so called the ambulance. At the hospital the equipment found no heart beat or brain activity, yet the guy was still meditating unbeknown to everyone else. When he had enough of his session, he came out and was a bit shocked to find he was in a hospital, and the equipment showed his signs of life.

Now there are many more things in that talk that suggest the brain is merely like the body, it is a shell and when you die it slowly shuts down, talking about natural slow deaths, not sudden deaths. Your senses start to fade away and Brahm goes on to say that if you have been in deep meditative states, you will have experienced this before to some degree. He also went on to say with a degree of 'should I be telling you this'' that when you sometimes reach deep meditative states, it is better than sex! lol. You can get to a point in seeing a bright light through meditation. Myself, I am a pretty lazy mediator but I now I have gone through the process of cold turkey with regards to my valium addiction, my mind is not so clouded.

But people who have any sense of doubt about NEDs, or consciousness separating the brain and so forth, wactch that talk that taiyaki provided. If a buddhist monk can lie lie and lie for an hour, then that is pretty shocking.

taiyaki

is consciousness a function of higher brain? can consciousness exist without the mind?

interesting topic. i'd love to hear some experiences or thoughts!

Interesting topic, indeed! But first, some definitions: what are you calling the "higher brain"? Is that what some people refer to as the "higher self"? Can consciousness exist without mind: how are you defining "mind"? Is "mind" the brain, or are "mind" and "consciousness" the same thing? According to the article in the OP, consciousness can and does exist independent of the brain.

higher brain meaning a complex function of the brain that we don't understand yet. could be neurons firing or something. i am not a brain scientist lol. i think people call the higher self their consciousness or awareness.

by mind i mean the three pound physical brain. as the guy from the research asserts that our brains are tuning into consciousness, thus consciousness can exist outside of the physical brain.

mainstream neuroscience is saying that consciousness is completely the by product of some complex system in the brain.

lol

taiyaki

the idea of NDEs corresponds with my experience with OBEs or astral projection. every once and a while, when i am sleeping and aware that i am sleeping, i try astral projection. the idea is to bring attention to the third eye and push yourself through a tunnel through the third eye. with enough momentum one can project their consciousness outward and escape the physical form. while astral projection one looks out through their third eye and one can float around and interact with reality. but this reality isn't like the normal reality, but i would describe it as somewhat of a framework of the normal reality.

so far i've had about four OBE's. i could be lucid dreaming though lol. fun thought either way.

IronRabbit

Human brain - 80 to 90 billion non neuronal cells - 80 to 90 billion neurons with 1000 trillion synaptic connections.

Human body - 10 to 100 trillion cells.

Human mind - no cellular structure - supposed seat of all conscious and unconscious cognitive processes. Mind dependent on living cellular organism with functioning (even marginally) sensory organs to filter and integrate a staggering amount of constantly incoming data and string together a unique yet partially shared reality. Mind incapable of consciously managing functions of human body - sustaining life - simultaneously with problem solving, personality laden structure. Unconscious mind virtually inaccessible directly. Mind connected to body barely understood - mind separating from brain explained in documentaries or lectures?

Even nde's are dependent upon life - and the very temporary detectable lack of it. More importantly, the use of the living mind is utilized to recall and report upon a state of non being - non living - for which it has absolutely no frame of reference. Which is precisely why experiences are described in terms of memory or influential ideation.

Tibetan Buddhists allow three days for consciousness - perhaps electrical cellular activity - to cease in a corpse before sky burial or cremation. Please cite documented evidence of those who have returned from death three days, three months, three years, three decades hence and perhaps credence can be lent to nde's.

This just an opinion.

ThailandTom

Here is a thought, maybe after those 3 days, they become reborn in another realm, be it physical or non physical..

IronRabbit

Just so, a thought - a mental formation - requiring mind and reference points accessible through memory or imagination - having only to do with this experience of living - of conceiving of realms physical or otherwise. Sky's the limit here. Imagination can run wild - but implying "they" become reborn suggests some identity "doing" something - same as nde's - emptiness is empty of identity - comprehensible rebirth is beyond mindful living now. And rebirth is not exactly an nde, is it? Exciting though. Distracting too. Harmless enough, unless obsessive.

compassionate_warrior

the idea of NDEs corresponds with my experience with OBEs or astral projection. every once and a while, when i am sleeping and aware that i am sleeping, i try astral projection. the idea is to bring attention to the third eye and push yourself through a tunnel through the third eye. with enough momentum one can project their consciousness outward and escape the physical form. while astral projection one looks out through their third eye and one can float around and interact with reality. but this reality isn't like the normal reality, but i would describe it as somewhat of a framework of the normal reality.

Cool trick, Tai. I'll try it sometime.

Dakini

higher brain meaning a complex function of the brain that we don't understand yet. could be neurons firing or something. i am not a brain scientist lol. i think people call the higher self their consciousness or awareness.

by mind i mean the three pound physical brain. as the guy from the research asserts that our brains are tuning into consciousness, thus consciousness can exist outside of the physical brain.

The "higher self" if I understand it correctly, usually refers to, you might say, extraordinary consciousness, meaning, above and beyond ordinary consciousness. Consciousness that's connected to universal consciousness, or the divine, or however one conceptualizes that.

So you're equating "mind" with the physical brain. OK. Well, if the brain (mind) is merely the receiver for the electromagnetic phenomenon of consciousness, as was theorized in the article, what happens to consciousness when the brain dies? It floats around outside the body, and ... then what? Where did it come from in the first place (what generated it, what's its source), and where does it go after its receiver goes kaput? I thought the article made it clear that consciousness does exist without the mind, to answer your question, Taiyaki.

I love this topic!

ThailandTom

It is a continuum, consciousness that is. Just like the universe itself, there is no beginning and there is no end. Consciousness is now commonly known to physicists as the fabric of the universe.

It probably won't help you too much with your path to liberation to dwell on such matters, but I find it rather interesting and fun to think about. We shall come to see anyway, gives dying something to look forward to

Dakini

It is a continuum, conscious that is. Just like the universe itself, there is no beginning and there is no end. Consciousness is now commonly known to physicists as the fabric of the universe.

It is? Do you have a reference for that? That's a new one to me.

It probably won't help you too much with your path to liberation to dwell on such matters, but I find it rather interesting and fun to think about.

Oh no--not you, too, Tom! With the "this topic doesn't advance our practice" chide! Topics don't have to advance our practice. We can enjoy topics for the fun of it, as you said, and for the intellectual curiosity.

taiyaki

does ending the rebirth process by enlightenment mean you stay as consciousness forever?

what the hell is Parinirvana?

lol fun topic

ThailandTom

well from what I gathered from the dalai lama in one of my books, is that once you are liberated and come to die, you become reborn as an Arya. However, these beings are still subject to their karma over the previous lifetimes and in their present lifetime, thus eventually die and again are reborn.

About the fabric of the universe being consciousness, I got that from a documentary on quantum mechanics.

taiyaki

so there is no end to this madness? shit

ThailandTom

lol, it is all theory, well to us it is anyway. If you believe in the dalai lama for who is so say meant to be, and all of the other lamas, then I guess you would come to believe it. I will try and dig out exactly what he says about the Arya...

taiyaki

Yeah, i'm curious what an Arya is.

lol thanks man for looking all this up!

ThailandTom

in the exact words of his holiness -

''In buddhism you can find the distinction between ordinary beings and superior beings, or the Arya. This basis can be made on their respective levels of consciousness or realization. ANyone who has gained direct intuitive realization of emptiness, or the ultimate nature of reality, is said to be an Arya according to Mahayana, and anyone who has not gained that realization is called an ordinary being. In relation to the three realms, the subtler the level of consciousness an individual attains, the subtler the realm of existence he can inhabit.

For example, if a person's ordinary mode of being is very much within the context of desire and attachment- that is to say that he tends to develop attachment to whatever he perceives, like desirable forms or pleasant sensations and so on - then such attachment to physical objects, thought processes and sensory experiences leads to a form of existence which is confined within the desire realm, both now and in the future. At the same time, there are people who have transcended attachment to objects of immediate perception and physical sensations, but who are attached to the inner states of joy or bliss. That type of person creates causes that will lead him or her to future rebirths where physical existence has a much more refined form.

Furthermore, there are those who have transcended attachment not only to physical sensations, but also to pleasurable inner sensations of joy and bliss. They tend more towards a state of equanimity. Their level of consciousness is much more subtler than the other two, but they are still attached to a particular mode of being. The grosser levels of their mind can lead to the fourth level of the form realm, while the subtler attachment towards equanimity leads to the formless realms. So this is the way we relate to three realms to level of consciousness.

On the basis of this cosmology, Buddhism talks about the infinite process of the universe, coming into being and going through a process of dissolution before again coming into being. This process has to be understood in relation to the three realms of existence. It is from the third level of the form realms downwards that the world is subject to continuous process of arising and dissolution. From the fourth level of the form realm upwards, which includes the formless realm, the world is beyond this process which we could call the evolution of the physical universe.''

That was taken from one of the books, so I typed it for you taiyaki!! Now I have to go out tootles all

taiyaki

ah beautiful! thank you

compassionate_warrior

So the Buddha, then, didn't escape the cycle of rebirth, he became an Arya, and continued to be reborn?? :-/ Doesn't reaching Enlightenment mean ending the cycle of rebirth? :scratch:

Palzang

If you would like to know what really happens at the time of death, I would strongly suggest you find a phowa master who will give teachings on phowa (the transference of consciousness at the time of death). Phowa is a very well-developed, logical system in Tibetan Buddhism, and they are able to explain every step of the dying process and beyond through the intermediate bardo stages right through to the next life. There are also a few books on the subject, though just reading about it may lead to more confusion than clarity.

Dakini

There's a good film on the subject, too: The Tibetan Book of the Dead, produced by a Japanese film crew in Tibetan cultural areas around the Himalayas.

This idea of consciousness as part of the fabric of the universe, or part of a grand field of consciousness is interesting, in that it confirms Buddhist teachings that consciousness is independent of the brain. Until recently science limited consciousness to being a function of the brain and body chemistry. But still, the question remains: when someone dies, does that person's consciousness (or the electromagnetic consciousness wave his/her brain was receiving) just melt back into the fabric of the universe? Or does it remain distinct, to beam itself to a new receiver when someone is born? In order for theories of rebirth to hold, the consciousness of a deceased person would have to somehow remain distinct. ...wouldn't it?

ThailandTom

maybe there is one ultimate consciousness, maybe of some young child outside of our vastly inferior and small universe that we all blend into.. Maybe we are all connected to some computer game that is highly advanced, maybe there are so many plausible answers we should just wait

Dakini

Well, it's a great question, and I love that science is finally catching up to Buddhist theory in this regard. Hooray for quantum physics! :clap: :om:

P.S. There are a number of articles on consciousness and quantum mechanics on the internet if you just google those two items together.

Cloud

Reply to @Dakini's comment earlier...

The Buddhist teaching is not that consciousness is independent of the brain, but rather than the mind (which consciousness is part of) is not the same thing as the brain. Thinking that there is anything "independent" is exactly how we create separation and thus self.

The Buddhist teaching is that form conditions mind, and consciousness is a factor of mind. Without a relationship to form, there is no mind and thus no consciousness. They are interdependent phenomena, like the candle and the flame. Does the candle-flame exist or have any attributes without the candle? Such is the same with consciousness (mind) and the brain.

The brain etc. is the candle, the mind/consciousness is the flame. We only attribute an experience of life, in fact any experiences, to life-forms, or forms that have developed the capacity for mind. Consciousness is not in our experience floating out in the air, it is tied to form in some way always.

Dakini

Thanks, Cloud. So what happens when the form dies, what happens to the flame?

Cloud

If the flame is conditioned by the form and can't be truly separated from the form, but form is ever-changing and can not be pinned down as any one thing, then we can not speak of "life" and "death" of the flame. The flame changes with the form, and the form is ownerless (not-self) and impermanent.

Change seems to be the only persistent aspect of life, and the experience of life as change (rather than self and other) is Nirvana... I think. The Dharma is the change, Nirvana the pure experience of change. In this way they are related.

Dakini

OK, if the form is the brain (the receiver of the postulated electromagnetic waves of consciousness), and the flame represents those consciousness waves, when the form (brain) dies, what happens to the flame (consciousness waves)?

Cloud

Did the brain just show up some day? Magically appear? Or has that form always been, yet has been forever changing due to conditions? Birth and death are conceptual but they posit something separate and new has come into existence... it hasn't.

If the flame arises from form that is no-thing, has no permanent nature, can the flame have any permanent nature? Other than to change just like the form does? Is the flame something new and separate from the form, or is it timeless and unfathomable like the no-thing form itself?

The flame flickers, constancy an illusion. Snap snap. It is only experience, it's not a thing, it's not you and can never die having never been born. Cheer up.

Dakini

Cheer up.

ha, thanks. I think what's happening is I'm looking at this scientifically, following the explanations in the OP article, so I'm talking apples, and you're talking Buddhist perspective, so you're talking artichokes. And never the twain shall meet. (?)

Did the brain just show up some day?

The brain evolves in the womb. At that point, probably, it begins to act as a receiver to the universal consciousness/fabric of the universe. So it kinda did show up one day, or rather, developed over 9 months.

ThailandTom

lol, this has gotten a little deep, fun though. I personally stick my opinions and thoughts with what the dalai lama has read, I find him a great teacher through mere words, often it takes a couple of times to read his books so they actually become absorbed for me, but they are little gems.
Yes, everything is meant to be dependent on everything else, nothing is separate, there is no self or nothing you can point to and say that is interdependent from the world. But can you point to your consciousness.. I think this all requires a vast amount of practice and meditation, so we better get our cushions out people and our asses down!

Cloud

@Dakini, But where did your brain come from, what did it develop from? There's never a point where there wasn't already something there, which changed and eventually became the brain. Isn't your body made up of matter that has come from plants and animals?

ThailandTom

From the buddhist prospective, science will always be flawed as it uses instruments to measure illusions which in themselves are illusions. lol... but we can leanr a lot from science and save a lot of lives I am kind of in the middle here, maybe with avocado's

ThailandTom

@Cloud read what the dalai lama said about the universe...

''On the basis of this cosmology, Buddhism talks about the infinite process of the universe, coming into being and going through a process of dissolution before again coming into being. This process has to be understood in relation to the three realms of existence. It is from the third level of the form realms downwards that the world is subject to continuous process of arising and dissolution. From the fourth level of the form realm upwards, which includes the formless realm, the world is beyond this process which we could call the evolution of the physical universe.''

Dakini

Avocados aren't a bad place to be, tom. Great topic!

Cloud

@ThailandTom, And what do you think he is saying? I read that as saying that awareness itself is not subject to change (though it is still dependent upon form to arise). This would make awareness the unconditioned.

ThailandTom

I personally get from what he has said that if you reach certain realizations, you can transcend this physical, ever changing world of samsara upon dying and leave the universe in all it's transience and dissolution, coming into being. Bet hey, I am an ex drug user, so I could be wrong

What do you think he is saying cloud...

taiyaki

there is only existence. we cannot phantom non-existence. even nothing is in a way something.

thus when we die we live on. physically we turn into the water, ground, food for animals, etc. our consciousness always has been and always will be. it will also move on to another life or something else that we don't know of.

when the buddha died and went to parinirvana. what is that? does that mean he actually went to a place. or has he gone back into the infinite void and in a way lives on through us and his teachings.

or is he hanging out in some other world?

lol oh the endless possibilities.

ThailandTom

I personally am undecided and do not know. I however do know that the suttas would have something to say about that, what exactly I do not know lol. Also know that a lot of lateral, logical thinking people on this board would suggest that he would have attained nirvana in his life, and that is where his heaven was, his life was free of suffering. Then he just died and his energy that is always shared was given back to the world. But i don't buy that, I believe consciousness is something so complex, as so is the universe, something beyond the ordinary and unenlightened minds comprehension that there are many things to find out.

Broo

This is how I understood: everything is made out of "sankara" San means collection and kara means information.
our mind body and everything else in the universe and out of universe are made out of Sankara.
These sankara constantly change (appear and disappear) Mind is made out of Sankara so our body. Difference is speed of Sankara- Speed of sankara of mind is higher than speed of light therefore we still cannot capture this to modern day instruments. Sankara in body has much slow speed.
Mind is in our body but we cannot pin point where exactly in the body. But still mind always travel with body.
Mind and the body glued together. This glue is "Thanha" - Thanha exists because we constantly communicate with mind and body. We try to analyze things through our mind. Then we sucked in to illusion created by mind.If we can break this communication with mind (inner chatter) we will be in path to open our third eye. (Prangya=knowledge)
How? once some one understood this mechanism and practice to ignore their mind by stopping two way communication (inner chatter)
Sankara of body and mind will come in to same frequency or speed then you will see non self through your third eye.
Sorry about my English. But this works for me for some extend.Haven't seen the third eye yet. But I feel Sankara in my body since i started practicing.
Any thoughts? Criticism welcome

Dakini

This is interesting, but it doesn't answer the question: what happens to the consciousness wave that exits the body (as in the scientific article in the OP) after the bodymind dies?
Thank you for a thoughtful post, Broo.