The 31 Places of Existence?

DaltheJigsaw

The 31 Places of Existence?
Would love to hear other people's opinion on this...
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf

ThailandTom

Thanks for the PDF leon. I have read bits of it as it is a bit of a long read for me right now, however I do believe in rebirth and I do accept a lot of what is said. This after all is down to opinion and this is mine so far Again, thank you..

PDF, moved, saved to, dharma folder

Dakini

Leon we have 2 other threads discussing this. I was surprised that there wasn't much interest. I've never heard of that Buddhist Cosmology. And the info I had said it's a Theravada belief as well as Mahayana.

DaltheJigsaw

What are the links, if you don't mind. And you are welcome Tom!

hermitwin

Some people contend that Jesus taught about
eternal heaven & hell because he could not
see beyond that.
The Buddhist hell & heaven are not eternal.

vinlyn

Some people contend that Jesus taught about
eternal heaven & hell because he could not
see beyond that.
The Buddhist hell & heaven are not eternal.

Gee, do you think maybe that was a "my religion is better than your religion" attitude?

vinlyn

The 31 Places of Existence?
Would love to hear other people's opinion on this...
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf

Sounds like a fairy tale to me...but I'll remain open-minded.

hermitwin

& my head is bigger than yours...
I was going to say another anatomy but lincoln
will ban me.

Some people contend that Jesus taught about
eternal heaven & hell because he could not
see beyond that.
The Buddhist hell & heaven are not eternal.

Gee, do you think maybe that was a "my religion is better than your religion" attitude?

DaltheJigsaw

Thanks everyone!

compassionate_warrior

I had a thread titled "Buddhist Cosmology", now on pg. 3 of the main listings. But there wasn't much explanation offered. And MindGate has a thread questioning an aspect of the 31 realms, called "Buddhist contradiction?", and there was another thread that got into this multiple-realms business, but either no one knows much about it, or those who do know aren't participating. Beats me. :-/ I've never heard of that stuff, have you? Not until it was mentioned on this forum.

What are the links, if you don't mind.

DaltheJigsaw

I had a thread titled "Buddhist Cosmology", now on pg. 3 of the main listings. But there wasn't much explanation offered. And MindGate has a thread questioning an aspect of the 31 realms, called "Buddhist contradiction?", and there was another thread that got into this multiple-realms business, but either no one knows much about it, or those who do know aren't participating. Beats me. :-/ I've never heard of that stuff, have you? Not until it was mentioned on this forum.

What are the links, if you don't mind.

I have heard it from studying Esoterics and Occult.
This is a bit different, maybe that is why I find it interesting.
Thanks for helping me out!:)
How are you doing by the way?

compassionate_warrior

haha! Well, it helps to check out the link you provided, I only did that now! It looks fascinating.
I'm fine, thanks.

ThailandTom

I will copy what I got from a book from the dalai lama with regards to realms, it doesn't cover all 31, but it helps to describe how the universe works and how one can actually transcend the physical universe and its ever changing ways, the fact it eternally comes into being and then dissolves over and over.


In buddhism you can find the distinction between ordinary beings and superior beings, or the Arya. This basis can be made on their respective levels of consciousness or realization. ANyone who has gained direct intuitive realization of emptiness, or the ultimate nature of reality, is said to be an Arya according to Mahayana, and anyone who has not gained that realization is called an ordinary being. In relation to the three realms, the subtler the level of consciousness an individual attains, the subtler the realm of existence he can inhabit.

For example, if a person's ordinary mode of being is very much within the context of desire and attachment- that is to say that he tends to develop attachment to whatever he perceives, like desirable forms or pleasant sensations and so on - then such attachment to physical objects, thought processes and sensory experiences leads to a form of existence which is confined within the desire realm, both now and in the future. At the same time, there are people who have transcended attachment to objects of immediate perception and physical sensations, but who are attached to the inner states of joy or bliss. That type of person creates causes that will lead him or her to future rebirths where physical existence has a much more refined form.

Furthermore, there are those who have transcended attachment not only to physical sensations, but also to pleasurable inner sensations of joy and bliss. They tend more towards a state of equanimity. Their level of consciousness is much more subtler than the other two, but they are still attached to a particular mode of being. The grosser levels of their mind can lead to the fourth level of the form realm, while the subtler attachment towards equanimity leads to the formless realms. So this is the way we relate to three realms to level of consciousness.

On the basis of this cosmology, Buddhism talks about the infinite process of the universe, coming into being and going through a process of dissolution before again coming into being. This process has to be understood in relation to the three realms of existence. It is from the third level of the form realms downwards that the world is subject to continuous process of arising and dissolution. From the fourth level of the form realm upwards, which includes the formless realm, the world is beyond this process which we could call the evolution of the physical universe

DaltheJigsaw

I will copy what I got from a book from the dalai lama with regards to realms, it doesn't cover all 31, but it helps to describe how the universe works and how one can actually transcend the physical universe and its ever changing ways, the fact it eternally comes into being and then dissolves over and over.


In buddhism you can find the distinction between ordinary beings and superior beings, or the Arya. This basis can be made on their respective levels of consciousness or realization. ANyone who has gained direct intuitive realization of emptiness, or the ultimate nature of reality, is said to be an Arya according to Mahayana, and anyone who has not gained that realization is called an ordinary being. In relation to the three realms, the subtler the level of consciousness an individual attains, the subtler the realm of existence he can inhabit.

For example, if a person's ordinary mode of being is very much within the context of desire and attachment- that is to say that he tends to develop attachment to whatever he perceives, like desirable forms or pleasant sensations and so on - then such attachment to physical objects, thought processes and sensory experiences leads to a form of existence which is confined within the desire realm, both now and in the future. At the same time, there are people who have transcended attachment to objects of immediate perception and physical sensations, but who are attached to the inner states of joy or bliss. That type of person creates causes that will lead him or her to future rebirths where physical existence has a much more refined form.

Furthermore, there are those who have transcended attachment not only to physical sensations, but also to pleasurable inner sensations of joy and bliss. They tend more towards a state of equanimity. Their level of consciousness is much more subtler than the other two, but they are still attached to a particular mode of being. The grosser levels of their mind can lead to the fourth level of the form realm, while the subtler attachment towards equanimity leads to the formless realms. So this is the way we relate to three realms to level of consciousness.

On the basis of this cosmology, Buddhism talks about the infinite process of the universe, coming into being and going through a process of dissolution before again coming into being. This process has to be understood in relation to the three realms of existence. It is from the third level of the form realms downwards that the world is subject to continuous process of arising and dissolution. From the fourth level of the form realm upwards, which includes the formless realm, the world is beyond this process which we could call the evolution of the physical universe

Thank you!:)

DaltheJigsaw

Thanks!

DaltheJigsaw

Thank You!

evolve

@ThailandTom whats the title of this book? sounds interesting

compassionate_warrior

From the fourth level of the form realm upwards, which includes the formless realm, the world is beyond this process which we could call the evolution of the physical universe

Thanks for taking the time, Tom. I have to admit, I don't know what to do with this info, how to get my mind around it. It sounds so highly speculative. According to the relevant suttra (see dharma's post on the "Buddhist Cosmology" thread), the Buddha perceived all this with his "divine eye", which developed as a result of his Enlightenment. We had a thread on Enlightenment and clairvoyance, the "divine eye" phenom, and many members rejected the idea. So... :-/ ...whatever. I guess it's up to everyone to decide if it's helpful to buy into this or not. I'm still working on it. :scratch: What do you think?

fivebells

I have to admit, I don't know what to do with this info, how to get my mind around it.

It makes total sense as a classic description of meditative states if you stop thinking of the realms as physical/cosmological locations, though.

bravehawk

this is my inner geek coming out, but Buddhist cosmology reminds me of Stargate when the ancients "ascend". just a random thought.

Vincenzi

now the narakas are meditative states...

compassionate_warrior

I have to admit, I don't know what to do with this info, how to get my mind around it.

It makes total sense as a classic description of meditative states if you stop thinking of the realms as physical/cosmological locations, though.

OK, I can see that. But that's one of the eternal debates, isn't it: whether the cosmology, or the basic 6 realms in TB, are to be taken literally (as physical places) or more figuratively/symbolically. A lot of Asian practitioners take these things literally. I don't think that debate has an end. Plus there's the fact that the Buddha described beings arising, along with their karmic "scripts", beings passing away, beings arising in different realms due to the ripening of their karma. I suppose one could interpret this either way, but it seems to me more like the description of physical births, passings away, and rebirth. He speaks of disintegration of the body, so that makes it as physical as it can get, doesn't it? I mean, it would be easy to say, "ok, I'm taking this as a description of meditative states. A simple solution". But if we're honest and take a good look at the texts, I don't know if we can adopt that stance unequivocally. Just trying to sort through this stuff...
:scratch:

vinlyn

It makes total sense as a classic description of meditative states if you stop thinking of the realms as physical/cosmological locations, though.

And the way you are putting it...I can buy it! Thanks for this post.

vinlyn

OK, I can see that. But that's one of the eternal debates, isn't it: whether the cosmology, or the basic 6 realms in TB, are to be taken literally (as physical places) or more figuratively/symbolically. A lot of Asian practitioners take these things literally. I don't think that debate has an end. Plus there's the fact that the Buddha described beings arising, along with their karmic "scripts", beings passing away, beings arising in different realms due to the ripening of their karma. I suppose one could interpret this either way, but it seems to me more like the description of physical births, passings away, and rebirth. He speaks of disintegration of the body, so that makes it as physical as it can get, doesn't it? I mean, it would be easy to say, "ok, I'm taking this as a description of meditative states. A simple solution". But if we're honest and take a good look at the texts, I don't know if we can adopt that stance unequivocally. Just trying to sort through this stuff...
:scratch:

When I think of cosmology, I think of the stars and planets, etc. And when I think of depictions I have seen of Buddhist cosmology in Thai Buddhist temples, all I can think is...well, that just isn't true.

Then as Fivebells suggested, if these were "meditative places" of the mind...okay, I can see that.

Or if anyone was to tell me that was what Buddhist heavens and hells were like, I can even say okay, as long as you agree that it is no more factual than Christian heaven and hell.

bravehawk

I found this for anyone who is interested. The secend part goes through what Tibet culture believes what happens after death through the eyes of the dead.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-tibetan-book-of-the-dead/

Also, It's just my belief, but I think the soul is a sentient energy that attaches itself to something physical(whether animal or human). I believe that their is body,mind, and energy, but most let the body lead the mind, but its really a preferance. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, at least that's what science has in it's laws. So if that is the cause, does that not support reincarnation? Was the Great Teacher Buddha trying to tell us in so many words, that our energy doesnt need the physical attachment and that we can live or sustain ourselves with out the physical body? I'm native american so maybe my beliefs systems is a bit biased, but Im a big believer in spirits/energies.

My cosmology goes:
-ascended/nirvana/raw energy-attainment of not being attached to the physical. The state of bliss or nothingness(or non-physical attachment).
-Angels/Bodhisttivas/(positive)spirits(sp?)-people who made a pact with themselves to help others, whether to obtain nirvana or help their state of mind(ie calm sadness or anger, etc) so they can see clearly the path need taken.
-Saints/Buddhas- Those with a undeniable connection with the divine(who use that force for good).
-Humans(enlightened or not)- Us just learning to deal with life and learn humanity.
-animals- Though some can be vicious, I believe they are there to teach us things, whether we know it or not(ie-paper wasps teaching us to make paper, Dragonfly larvae showing us the enigneering/mechanics of a motorboat, Massive Insect kingdoms show us how large society can work/function in peace).
-demons or lesser beings(negetive spirits)- Those who love malice and do not understand humanity. often reincarnates as animils or human.

I pretty much believe that these form cycle and dont state. Some states last longer than others, but nothing last forever...except energy.

Dakini

Thanks for that link, Bravehawk. I've been recommending that film whenever I get the chance here, but I didn't know it was available online. And I agree, there's body, mind, and electromagnetic energy that manifests different ways; as an electromagnetic field around living things (and non-living things--rocks), as the mind/consciousness field, and many other ways. Maybe this is what mind is, so maybe there's just body and energy.

person

The universe is a pretty big place and we only understand a tiny slice of it so who knows whats out there?

ThailandTom

THe buddha is called 'the book of awaking' by the dalai lama, and it goes through firstly how he respects all religions for what their possibilities in producing positivity, and one should not discriminate them. Then he rolls through the 4 noble truths in detail, then consciousness, dependent origination, there is a bit on karma and liberation and I think thats about it. It is a good book to have as a beginner and as a long term practitioner I think. Sometimes you need to read things a few times as it is quite heavy in places and takes a while to sink in.

I myself do not blindly believe everything he says, but I do believe a lot of what he says after reading and pondering.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://img1.fkcdn.com/img/547/9780007164547.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flipkart.com/dalai-lama-book-awakening-his-book-0007164548&usg=__U1rWldYjuLLTkivxiMg-C0nsLCI=&h=177&w=150&sz=8&hl=en&start=7&zoom=1&tbnid=ZrsgSLnliVJ3RM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=86&ei=fNi8Tf7ZJcXwrQe92tW1Bw&prev=/search?q=the+book+of+awakening+dalai+lama&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1073&bih=646&tbm=isch&um=1&itbs=1

DaltheJigsaw

Thanks everyone!

fivebells

OK, I can see that. But that's one of the eternal debates, isn't it: whether the cosmology, or the basic 6 realms in TB, are to be taken literally (as physical places) or more figuratively/symbolically.

I'm not looking for a debate, I'm just pointing out that one interpretation is coherent and accessible and survives because it is useful in day-to-day practice, while the other has all these mysterious paradoxes you're not supposed to think about, serves no purpose in day-to-day practice, and probably survives because it supports authoritarian religious structures and the common hope for post-mortem survival. Also, there is no need for debate, because it is possible to accept both intepretations. In fact, I have never talked to a serious practitioner who did not accept the figurative application of the cosmology to this life, even though many also adhere to the literal interpretation.

Plus there's the fact that the Buddha described beings arising, along with their karmic "scripts", beings passing away, beings arising in different realms due to the ripening of their karma. I suppose one could interpret this either way, but it seems to me more like the description of physical births, passings away, and rebirth. He speaks of disintegration of the body, so that makes it as physical as it can get, doesn't it? I mean, it would be easy to say, "ok, I'm taking this as a description of meditative states. A simple solution". But if we're honest and take a good look at the texts, I don't know if we can adopt that stance unequivocally. Just trying to sort through this stuff...
:scratch:

We've covered this before. It's a question of philology and translation. As Dhatu has repeatedly pointed out, there is a coherent framework for translating the Pali scriptures in which the "figurative" interpretation is exactly what the text says...

DaltheJigsaw

I found this for anyone who is interested. The secend part goes through what Tibet culture believes what happens after death through the eyes of the dead.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-tibetan-book-of-the-dead/

Also, It's just my belief, but I think the soul is a sentient energy that attaches itself to something physical(whether animal or human). I believe that their is body,mind, and energy, but most let the body lead the mind, but its really a preferance. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, at least that's what science has in it's laws. So if that is the cause, does that not support reincarnation? Was the Great Teacher Buddha trying to tell us in so many words, that our energy doesnt need the physical attachment and that we can live or sustain ourselves with out the physical body? I'm native american so maybe my beliefs systems is a bit biased, but Im a big believer in spirits/energies.

My cosmology goes:
-ascended/nirvana/raw energy-attainment of not being attached to the physical. The state of bliss or nothingness(or non-physical attachment).
-Angels/Bodhisttivas/(positive)spirits(sp?)-people who made a pact with themselves to help others, whether to obtain nirvana or help their state of mind(ie calm sadness or anger, etc) so they can see clearly the path need taken.
-Saints/Buddhas- Those with a undeniable connection with the divine(who use that force for good).
-Humans(enlightened or not)- Us just learning to deal with life and learn humanity.
-animals- Though some can be vicious, I believe they are there to teach us things, whether we know it or not(ie-paper wasps teaching us to make paper, Dragonfly larvae showing us the enigneering/mechanics of a motorboat, Massive Insect kingdoms show us how large society can work/function in peace).
-demons or lesser beings(negetive spirits)- Those who love malice and do not understand humanity. often reincarnates as animils or human.

I pretty much believe that these form cycle and dont state. Some states last longer than others, but nothing last forever...except energy.

Thank you so much for the documentary!
I cannot wait to watch it!