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What is the cause of a person who is born ugly?

hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
edited May 2011 in General Banter
According to a Buddhist book I read,
people with bad temper will be reborn ugly.
People who are drunkards will be stupid when they
are reborn.
Have you heard of others?

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Comments

  • I thought beauty was in the eye of the beholder :rolleyes:
  • YishaiYishai Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Karmic retribution? I've also heard similar things. Basically anything and everything unfortunate is karmic.

    I'm not sure I agree with this definition of karma. It lays misfortune on "past lives". I think karma is mostly effect that we will experience in the now. And negative karma merely determines whether we stay in samsara and into which realm we may be rebirthed. I don't know a whole lot about it though since there are so many ways to interpret it. I'm very open-minded to what karma is.
  • According to a Buddhist book I read, people with bad temper will be reborn ugly.
    I've read a lot of stupid stuff in Buddhist books. Is there any basis for the proposition you're putting forward?
  • I think stuff like this, from a Buddhist source or not, is a bunch of silly superstitious crap
  • YishaiYishai Veteran
    I also feel like karma does not help us end samsara if we define as the book does. Almost sounds spiritist. Not buddhist.
  • According to a Buddhist book I read,
    people with bad temper will be reborn ugly.
    People who are drunkards will be stupid when they
    are reborn.
    Have you heard of others?
    The Lamrim is full of such examples. Mahayana teaches that the conditions of our present life are the results of the ripening of past life karma. This question has been debated more than once here. What people find objectionable about it is the blame-the-victim implications. It's up for each practitioner to decide, analyze, see if the teachings help or hinder their understanding and their practice.

    other examples: if one is wealthy in this life, it means one was generous in previous lives. If one is good-looking in this life, it means one was kind in past lives. One can surmise one's actions in past lives by looking at the one's present-life conditions, is the teaching. Take it or leave it. There is a sutra that says that the workings of karma are so complex as to be "imponderable". Yet these teachings on how actions affect future rebirth also come from sutric text. (Which some might say is a later addition.) And so it goes, around and around. This is the discussion in a nutshell. Hermitwin, if you're not a student of the Mahayana, you can ignore this issue. Although members have said they've run into strong cultural beliefs of this kind in Southeast Asia. I think there are many principles in Buddhism that are misunderstood by lay people, and these misunderstandings can take hold in the popular imagination and become "conventional wisdom".

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    The Wheel of Sharp Weapons, by Dharmarakshita is a text that details many karmic outcomes. It has 119 stanzas so its not too long. Here's a website that has the whole thing.

    http://www.bodhicitta.net/The Wheel of Sharp Weapons.htm
  • YishaiYishai Veteran
    Did the Buddha point out that not all misfortune and such are a result of past karmic action?

    "So, then, according to this view, owing to previous action men will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, covetous, malicious and perverts. Thus, for those who fall back on the former deeds as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor effort to do, nor necessity to do this deed, or abstain from this deed."

    That's from buddhanet, but I do not know where their source is from.
  • NomaDBuddhaNomaDBuddha Scalpel wielder :) Bucharest Veteran
    According to a Buddhist book I read,
    people with bad temper will be reborn ugly.
    People who are drunkards will be stupid when they
    are reborn.
    Have you heard of others?

    I think it's about how the genes combine...just sayin'
  • edited April 2011
    I think it's about how the genes combine...just sayin'
    Yes, but you see from a Tibetan perspective, it's about: why did the consciousness choose for its rebirth (or end up with, seemingly due to chance) those particular parents who had that set of genes? Other consciousnesses choose other parents. The consciousness looking for a rebirth is playing out a karmic script.

  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    Genetic sequencing.

    I however have the perfect balance between manly ruggedness and being a pretty boy. A nice square jaw yet handsomely smooth and tan skin. Angular yet robust features. Full lips with a small mole right on the left upper side. I don't mean to brag but before I gained the weight girls wouldn't leave me alone, in this it was almost a blessing.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited April 2011
    @compassionate_warrior: Or maybe the consciousness does not pass from life to life but arises dependent on the birth of the child, as described in the mahatanhasankhaya sutra.
  • So you apparently did everything right in some past lives.
  • i don't think being born ugly is a bad thing. one can be born ugly and cultivate a good personality and a warm heart. whereas one can be born beautiful and only cultivate material gain and shallowness. even people who are born stupid can with effort become very smart individuals. people who are born with great intellects can often be lazy and unmotivated.

    so as you can see. it really doesn't matter what you come with into this world. we all have choices to make. it's up to the individual.

    now whether or not these things occur based on past karma, it really doesn't matter. karma is just simply cause and effect.
    so really all one can do is work on themselves now.

    and if our past lives karma is true, then i would of wanted to be born as someone who is ugly. why? because then i'd have all
    the peace and quiet! no one would want to talk to me. Lol.
  • Nobody is ugly. We are all beautiful in our own way. :)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I think need to remember that "beauty" and "ugliness" is highly subjective from culture to culture, which to some extent makes a large part of this discussion meaningless. For example, Thais believe that if a person has ears that really stick out, then that person will typically have very good luck, hence it is considered attractive.

    On the other hand, the Thais tend to believe that people who have physical deformities (which in some cases may affect only appearance) are born so due to karma from a past life.
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Genetic sequencing.

    I however have the perfect balance between manly ruggedness and being a pretty boy. A nice square jaw yet handsomely smooth and tan skin. Angular yet robust features. Full lips with a small mole right on the left upper side. I don't mean to brag but before I gained the weight girls wouldn't leave me alone, in this it was almost a blessing.
    I see modesty is not one of your strong points

    :thumbsup:
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited April 2011
    I think need to remember that "beauty" and "ugliness" is highly subjective from culture to culture, which to some extent makes a large part of this discussion meaningless.
    Exactly vinlyn coul not agree more, as I said beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


    With Metta

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2011
    I thought beauty was in the eye of the beholder :rolleyes:
    Nobody is ugly. We are all beautiful in our own way. :)
    This is the enlightened perspective, IMO, but I'm surprised and dismayed by the extent to which so many Tibetan texts talk about beauty, as if this were a universal value. Though those are mostly tantric texts, a class by itself. But the Lamrim does this, too. Still, I think it's human to react favorably to certain characteristics, faces with a certain symmetry (studies refer to "the Golden Mean", certain proportions in facial features), etc. Few people react to someone's qualities of personality and intelligence. For one thing, those aren't as easily observable as physical features are. I'm not justifying this, I'm noting what is. The world is samsaric. All we can do is be mindful of our own tendencies and work to change them, and try to be a light in the world.

  • In an ideal world, it would not matter how we look.
    Just look around you. How many women wear makeup?

    People whose faces are not normal will go to
    great lengths to fix their faces.
    Plastic surgery started as a profession to
    help burn victims etc.
  • Its a sad fact in the world that the advice
    "dont judge a book by its cover"
    is very rarely followed.


    With Metta
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    @hermitwin and zidangus: I totally agree.
  • Some children are born autistic.
    Autism cant be detected at the genetic level.
  • hermitwinhermitwin Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Ajahn Brahm started attending buddhist meditation classes
    in his early 20s. My first buddhist meditation class
    took place when I was 19 yrs old.
    There is not a single person in my family
    who is interested in Buddhism or meditation,or religion.
    Well, there is one in a strange cult.
    But that is another story.
    And I come from a very big family.
    How do you explain that?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Explain what, your interest in Buddhism? I'm the same way; I feel fortunate to have discovered Buddhism as a child, in church Sunday school, of all places! I was instantly hooked. I explain it by past life experience.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    For what it's worth, here's an interesting film available online. A little off-topic re: karma and beauty, good fortune, etc., but interesting about rebirth.

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-tibetan-book-of-the-dead/
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Ajahn Brahm started attending buddhist meditation classes
    in his early 20s. My first buddhist meditation class
    took place when I was 19 yrs old.
    There is not a single person in my family
    who is interested in Buddhism or meditation,or religion.
    Well, there is one in a strange cult.
    But that is another story.
    And I come from a very big family.
    How do you explain that?
    Past Kamma cannot cannot influence your present Kamma IMO, if this is what you mean. Everyone has their own free will to chose the path they wish, of course kamma may help with a persons circumstances and environment they are born into, but its the individuals own choices that matters in the present.


    With Metta

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    Past Kamma cannot cannot influence your present Kamma IMO, if this is what you mean. Everyone has their own free will to chose the path they wish, of course kamma may help with a persons circumstances and environment they are born into, but its the individuals own choices that directs them in the present.

    Although I agree with you that kamma cannot continue on to the next existence, lots of people take the other view. If it did, it would seem rather unjust.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2011
    hermitwin: IMO it's not about past karma. It's about past life experience, and the subtle memories brought into this life. You have affinities for things you experienced in the past life/lives. That's how I feel about it. (I'm referring to your question re: choosing Buddhism.)
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited April 2011

    Although I agree with you that kamma cannot continue on to the next existence, lots of people take the other view. If it did, it would seem rather unjust.
    Sorry you misunderstood me, I do think that kamma can continue on to the next existence,
    what I am saying is that although past life kamma can manifest itself in misfortune or good fortune in the next life, and the conditions or environment we are born into; past life kamma cannot force us to do actions or follow a particular path in the present. I believe that a person has free will to choose what actions they wish to do and kamma from a past life has nothing to do with this. I think to suggest that kamma from a past life is why you became a Buddhist, to me suggests that you think that your life is already mapped out for you when you were born and your just going through the motions. This I disagree with, you make your own path in life is what I believe.



    With Metta

  • Some children are born autistic.
    Autism cant be detected at the genetic level.
    There are many complex diseases with unknown genetic risk factors. Even though we haven't identified the specific genetic variants involved, the fact that the diseases correlate in families is strong evidence that there actually are genetic factors involved.

    Though, I can't rule out the possibility that subtle mindstreams with a karmic propensity for a particular disease also share a propensity for particular families. It just seems wildly unlikely. :)

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Although I agree with you that kamma cannot continue on to the next existence, lots of people take the other view. If it did, it would seem rather unjust.
    Sorry you misunderstood me, I do think that kamma can continue on to the next existence,
    what I am saying is that although past life kamma can manifest itself in misfortune or good fortune in the next life, and the conditions or environment we are born into; past life kamma cannot force us to do actions or follow a particular path in the present. I believe that a person has free will to choose what actions they wish to do and kamma from a past life has nothing to do with this. I think to suggest that kamma from a past life is why you became a Buddhist, to me suggests that you think that your life is already mapped out for you when you were born and your just going through the motions. This I disagree with, you make your own path in life is what I believe.



    With Metta

    Hmmmm. I think I see what you are saying.

    But, in Thailand I have seen many people with birth defects that are resigned to a life of begging (although this is beginning to change). And the Buddhist Thais see this as kamma, and even see it as a way to gain merit when they give the beggars coins. It's not like here in the States where despite most handicaps it is still possible to have a successful life.

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited April 2011
    How do you explain that?
    Probably a straw man. I didn't see anyone saying that every human characteristic can be explained entirely by genetic factors.
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    edited April 2011
    @vinlyn But are they forced to do this ? They do it because they have less options available than in say the States, but its still a choice, and not literally forced to do this because of their birth defects.


    With Metta
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @vinlyn But are they forced to do this ? They do it because they have less options available than in say the States, but its still a choice, and not literally forced to do this because of their birth defects.


    With Metta
    Well, there are few choices in that underworld. And yes, some are forced. There are many instances of children who are rounded up, made into begging groups, and picked up and dropped off in various locations around Bangkok. I'd say that's forced. There are adults so crippled that they literally crawl on their hands and knees around the city, and have no other options.

  • Maybe..they aren't bothered by the ugly- perhaps happy on the inside? :) .....wow that sounded weird.. :wtf:
  • I believe we have free choice.
    But Ajahn Brahm suggests that many things we do
    are due to conditions. So, how much of it is free
    choice. I am beginning to wonder.


  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Genetics.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Ajahn Brahm started attending buddhist meditation classes in his early 20s. My first buddhist meditation class took place when I was 19 yrs old. There is not a single person in my family who is interested in Buddhism or meditation,or religion.
    So what? So what? So what?

    Your obsession with worldly things does not demonstrate much.

    I do not notice you participating much in the Emptiness discussions.

    Are you comparing yourself to Ajahn Brahm?

    Too many 'self-views' and too much brainwashing, for me.

    :eek2:
  • But Ajahn Brahm...
    Oh dear

    Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Brahm...blah, blah

    :wow:
  • DD, I am radiating metta to you.....
  • Let's consider genetics.
    Every time a man ejaculates, there are a few
    hundred million sperms.
    That means potentially a few
    hundred million unique individuals.

    You & I were the chosen one.
    Genetics.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2011
    DD, I am radiating metta to you.....
    So what?

    Stuck in delusion, trying to protect ego, upholding you are "good" and another is "evil"?

    Did you have a good listen to the whole of the video about Ajahn Brahm?

    :buck:
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2011
    You & I were the chosen one.
    Sounding rather "Biblical" now. The chosen one. OMG!

    :lol:
  • But DD you ARE evil :D Didn't you get that yet?
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited April 2011
    That means potentially a few
    hundred million unique individuals.
    Actually, it does not.

    It requires a female egg to produce an individual.

    Female has one egg per month and can breed say one child every 12 months.

    Your opinion has no basis in reality.

    :dunce:
  • But DD you ARE evil
    DD is cool

    :cool:
  • Agreed but cool in an evil way!
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