What is Sakagami (once-returner)?

hermitwin

What is Sakagami (once-returner)?
Return to where/what?

DhammaDhatu

my opinion

the suttas state:

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.nypo.html

in Dhamma, the word 'world' or 'loka' also means the world of mental states

so, imo, the once-returner returns to the world of greed, hatred & delusion again, when their mind must traverse the mental defilements described in stage 9 of the Anapanasati Sutta (or the third Satipatthana)

the once-returner is the one that has attained jhana, which is a worldly state

to be a non-returner, the once-returner must complete the jhanas, which includes the third satipatthana between the 3rd and 4th jhana

that is my opinion

I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.

Vincenzi

loka means world, don't push your views just because you disagree DD...

DhammaDhatu

Vincenzi

I can only suggest to improve your learning of the Pali language.

Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipada’’nti.

Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & mind, that I declare that there is the world, the origination of the world, the cessation of the world and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the world.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.045.than.html

And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html

"Insofar as it disintegrates, monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates?

The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate...

"The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate...

"The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate...

"The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate...

"The mind disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the mind consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the mind disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the mind — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.082.than.html

DhammaDhatu

Kāyena kho, āvuso… manena kho, āvuso, lokasmiṃ lokasaññī hoti lokamānī.

Yena kho, āvuso, lokasmiṃ lokasaññī hoti lokamānī – ayaṃ vuccati ariyassa vinaye loko.

The mind is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world and a conceiver of the world.

That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world and a conceiver of the world, this is called 'the world' in the Noble One's Discipline.

SN 35.116

aMatt

What is Sakagami (once-returner)?
Return to where/what?

My view is that this describes the de-habituation process when an afflicted state of mind and the perception of the afflicting phenomena co-arise in a moment. After the moment of [affliction/afflicted] arises, if we mindfully regard the affliction correctly...by penetrating and dis-identifying after the cognitive/emotional reaction settles, we are correctly set to only see the affliction once more. Such as a juggler noticing the sensation of the ball in the hand and what happened in the moment they habitually re-threw the ball into the air.

The non-returner is what arises that "once more", because we have penetrated the [affliction/afflicted] state directly enough that we can experience the rising of the affliction without an identity forming... without becoming "the afflicted"... cutting the cycle of DO and allowing the cycle to settle. The affliction does not return, like the juggler setting down one of the balls because he has correctly de-habituated the automatic motions.

BuckyG

...imo...the once-returner is the one that has attained jhana...that is my opinion

this is my opinion too...do you have an opinion about how one KNOWS one has attained jhana, e.g., the first jhana...or, maybe put another way, can one know for sure if one's experience is jhana or is there still some uncertainty involved?

hermitwin

Goodness gracious me.

I will need commentaries for this.

What is Sakagami (once-returner)?
Return to where/what?

My view is that this describes the de-habituation process when an afflicted state of mind and the perception of the afflicting phenomena co-arise in a moment. After the moment of [affliction/afflicted] arises, if we mindfully regard the affliction correctly...by penetrating and dis-identifying after the cognitive/emotional reaction settles, we are correctly set to only see the affliction once more. Such as a juggler noticing the sensation of the ball in the hand and what happened in the moment they habitually re-threw the ball into the air.

The non-returner is what arises that "once more", because we have penetrated the [affliction/afflicted] state directly enough that we can experience the rising of the affliction without an identity forming... without becoming "the afflicted"... cutting the cycle of DO and allowing the cycle to settle. The affliction does not return, like the juggler setting down one of the balls because he has correctly de-habituated the automatic motions.

DhammaDhatu

do you have an opinion about how one KNOWS one has attained jhana, e.g., the first jhana...or, maybe put another way, can one know for sure if one's experience is jhana or is there still some uncertainty involved?

hi Becky

the scriptures state one factor of jhana is ekkagattacitta or one-pointed mind

whilst this term is also not clear, for me, one-pointedness implies the mind is basically effortlessly unmoving, like glued or magnetized

the jhana literature states a meditator reaching jhana should be able to remain in that state for many hours

the scriptures report those most adept at jhana had minds free from self-view in jhana

often on the internet, one reads many claims to jhana but generally these claims are about uncontrollable short bursts of rapture

rapture can arise on varying levels of concentration

my view is jhana is a state of total stillness/bliss/egolessness to such a degree the mind feels no bodily discomfort and the practitioner can abide in that state, unmoving, for many hours

i find Ajahn Brahm's book on jhana: Mindfulness Bliss & Beyond reads well

kind regards

Vincenzi

@DD, loka doesn't mean mental state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loka
spokensanskrit

BuckyG

...the scriptures state one factor of jhana is ekkagattacitta or one-pointed mind...whilst this term is also not clear, for me, one-pointedness implies the mind is basically effortlessly unmoving, like glued or magnetized...the jhana literature states a meditator reaching jhana should be able to remain in that state for many hours

...and WANTS to even if he/she doesn't have time?

the scriptures report those most adept at jhana had minds free from self-view in jhana

Do you consider attainment of the first jhana to be a requisite for liberation from self-view? I believe it can be attained through other practices.

often on the internet, one reads many claims to jhana but generally these claims are about uncontrollable short bursts of rapture...rapture can arise on varying levels of concentration

Yet these short bursts are important "building blocks" for deeper, longer jhana, right?

my view is jhana is a state of total stillness/bliss/egolessness to such a degree the mind feels no bodily discomfort and the practitioner can abide in that state, unmoving, for many hours...i find Ajahn Brahm's book on jhana: Mindfulness Bliss & Beyond reads well...

I will familiarize myself with Ajahn Brahm's work on the topic.

So, are you "equating" duration to attainment, or am I misunderstanding?

In addition to my experience, my view of jhana is informed by Shaila Catherine's book on the jhanas, "Focused & Fearless," Ajaan Lee's coverage of jhana in his books "Keeping the Breathe In Mind" & "The Craft of the Heart, Bhikkhu Bhodi's comments on it in his book "The Noble Eightfold Path," & Thanissaro Bhikkhu's treatment of it in his books, "The Wings to Awakening" & "The Paradox of Becoming." All but the last and first are available at accesstoinsight.org.

Warmly,

BG

DhammaDhatu

So, are you "equating" duration to attainment, or am I misunderstanding?

Do you consider attainment of the first jhana to be a requisite for liberation from self-view? I believe it can be attained through other practices.

Yet these short bursts are important "building blocks" for deeper, longer jhana, right?

hi Bucky

Yes, I am "equating" duration with attainment. Rapture & happiness on the level of jhana concentration can last for many hours. Whereas on the lower levels of concentration, that is not possible. Duration is one indicator of jhana. Other indicators of jhana are the sublimeness of the jhana factors and the autopilot unification & expansiveness of mind.

I do not consider attainment of the first jhana to be a requisite for liberation from self-view. A sotapanna or stream-enterer has experienced liberation from self-view but not yet jhana. I am saying in jhana, the mind is so refined, thinking is so absent resulting in self-views to be equally absent (rather than lurking in the background a tiny bit).

Short bursts of rapture are part of the purification process. When negative formations (sankhara) are calmed, bursts of rapture can & will naturally occur.

Kind regards

DD

zenff

A sakagami seal is some industrial product.
A sakadagami is a person who will be reborn into the human world just once more.
(Unless of course he attains one of the two next stages of Enlightenment in his/her remaining lifetime)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment

zenff

I’m a fan of meditation, so don’t get me wrong.
But what’s so refined about being a jhana-junkie?

DhammaDhatu

A sakadagami is a person who will be reborn into the human world just once more.

Yes. This is a "traditional" interpretation.

As for jhana, the Buddhist listed it as the 8th factor of his path.

However, sure, for most people, it is something over-rated.

There is a lower level of concentration sufficient for good enough liberating insight.

Regards

"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html

Sabre

What is Sakagami (once-returner)?
Return to where/what?

It means he/she will be reborn to earthly (sensual) existence only once more. I think the line between stream entry and once returner is pretty vague, though. How can you know if you have just one more rebirth as a human or maybe two/three?

Anyway, the next stage is non-returner (anagami) is a lot clearer (at least intellectually), it is one who has broken the fetters of sensual lust and therefore will not take rebirth on earth because there is no reason for them to be reborn here anymore.

This is the classical Therevadan interpretation, I don't know how for example Tibetan Buddhism would describe it, but it must be something similar. If someone could show me some resources on this, I would be very happy.

Anyway, stream entry that should be the goal, after that the others follow naturally and are inevitable.

With metta,
Sabre

Whoknows

Hi DD, I like your explanation here about Loka and the world of mental states. I think that there is sometimes too much literal interpretation at times. It is funny that this tends to happen to people like myself who insist on relying on the "testing the gold" quote but still treat somethings as literal and others not, to support our pre-existing views. Also I think it is impossible to completely separate mental states from physical phenomena from a conventional point of view. Maybe the safest rule would be "if you easily agree with it then question it far more rigorously"?

fivebells

Dhatu, weren't you saying a little while ago that the Jhanas are not necessary ot enlightenment? If so, what changed your mind? (Just curious; I am agnostic on the question, though I incline a little more to the "not necessary" side.)

Cloud

Sakadagami is the last stage that's still really in this world. What I mean by that is that the next stage, Anagami (Non-Returner) is where the change is so noticeable that ordinary people may refer to such a person as "holy", as if they are otherworldly and seem not to be a part of our mundane existence (or hardly at all). The difference between an Anagami and an Arahant is slight, but the difference between a Once-Returner and a Non-Returner is quite noticeable to others. Or so I've heard.

The sakadagami mind can get angry, but does so slowly and almost immediately lets go of that anger when it arises. This state of mind is one where greed and anger are close to being extinguished altogether, but wisdom is not yet perfected.

DhammaDhatu

Dhatu, weren't you saying a little while ago that the Jhanas are not necessary ot enlightenment?

Hi FB

I would say or would have said jhanas are not necessary for sufficient liberation. There are different levels of enlightenment and the Buddha described them all as liberating. For example, the Buddha compared the amount of suffering of a stream-enterer to be the same as a fingertip of soil compared to the Great Earth. The stream-enterer is not required to practise to the point of jhana. There is sufficient insight (vipassana) for the stream-enterer prior to jhana manifesting.

For example, the stages of Anapanasati can be fully practised on a level of concentration prior to jhana. Then, if the practitioner continues practise, the path of Anapanasati will develop again, on a higher level of jhana concentration.

For full enlightenment, that is, arahant, the manifesting of jhana is certainly part of the path.

Regards

fivebells

Thanks for the explanation.

DhammaDhatu

You're welcome