Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
When I was in germany there was terrorism in the city from muslims. I am not aware of any german agression in the region. There is more than one cause to terrorism. As with all things.
Part of the reason we have all those tanks is because Arab nations are most likely not peaceful. Its kind of a done deal. We can't expect them to now be our friend because we reduce the size of our military.
I think its a very complex situation and unless youve really studied all of this its almost impossible to see the big picture. So we can all get snapshots of the story and extrapolate to make it seem like its the big picture but I think we are far from it.
Nobody is blameless. We should be able to agree though that finding alternatives to oil should be one of the biggest priories of our time. Yet all I see are commercials of oil companies telling us how much "research" they are doing to find new fuel sources....
Nobody is blameless. We should be able to agree though that finding alternatives to oil should be one of the biggest priories of our time. Yet all I see are commercials of oil companies telling us how much "research" they are doing to find new fuel sources....
As long as they're making record profits (aka greed) on oil, what incentive do they have? None. As long as greed remains the driving force behind just about everything in the world, nothing is likely to change. Just new enemies with different faces.
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." Martin Luther King, Jr.
When I head that Osama had been killed, I couldn't really pin down how to feel about it. After all, violence begets violence. Those who hate us still hate us, and will likely still attack us. We will continue to defend ourselves and retaliate (even pro-actively seek them out before they suicide-bomb us). This will go on, and neither side will relent. Where is the end of this hate?
It doesn't seem to be in violence, unless one side completely and utterly destroys the other; and that's not likely to happen unless it's a mutual destruction. I agree that we need to get to the bottom of what has caused all of this, what conditioning has been driving the hate, and try to understand it and reverse the flow. Don't ask me how, but there's more than one man to blame and much more work to be done before this will be over.
The latest news report I just heard, with commentary from a reporter in Pakistan, says they easily could have taken Bin Laden alive and brought him to trial. That's one alternative to killing.
I think you're mixing a bunch of things together cw. Going into Afghanistan and Iraq was not about killing Bin Laden. The wars and capturing Osama are different animals. So much so that Osama was in Pakistan. So I disagree that thousands were killed just to get Osama.
Fair enough, Ric--Iraq had nothing to do with Bin Laden, subtract from the tally those senseless deaths and the money spent on the war. Afghanistan is directly related to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, however. For some time, Bin Laden and gang were in a border area. The US had to enter Afghanistan to have access to the region where Bin Laden was hiding. He was said to be crossing back and forth across the border. Furthermore, there were said to be al Qaeda operatives and sympathizers/supporters in Afghanistan. The US is in Afghanistan to fight terrorism. Include at least some, possibly all, the thousands of innocent civilians deaths, deaths of US troops and money spent on that "war", or whatever it is, to the tally. The news report said US drone strikes kill hundreds of people, including children, daily. Is that price worth killing Bin Laden? What about all the other Bin Ladens still at large?
The news report said that this is how the US is fighting terrorism: by targeting the leadership of terrorist groups and their strongholds. So has the war on terrorism changed the rules of military engagement? Any country that suffers a terrorist attack has carte blanche to go after whoever they think the responsible people/organizations are? Spain, Israel, India, Russia--I must be leaving some out--is it open season on mid-Easterners who get identified or misidentified as terrorists? This has not been discussed in the UN Security Council. National governments are acting as vigilantes now? Is this what is required to fight terrorism? Maybe it is, but I don't recall the issue being discussed in global forums, with a vote to scrap international law. Can terrorism be successfully fought by state terrorism? Do two wrongs make a right? Ultimately, what's the difference between grass-roots terrorism and state terrorism? Both sides are convinced they have a grievance.
If the (mostly) young men joining terrorist organizations had educations and jobs, would this problem exist on the scale it does? Would it exist at all?
Would the aggrieved from 9/11 still have closure if Bin Laden had been captured alive and tried? Would the downside to having him in jail the rest of his life be worse than whatever may come of killing him? We'll never know. Is celebrating his murder right? Perhaps we can forgive those who lost loved ones in the tragic events of 9/11 if they let off some steam. But I think as was observed on the "extermination" thread, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
@ federica The newspaper says that one reason he was buried at sea was to not create a place of pilgrimage for his supporters.
Seriously, that's what I came here to post and when along with the fact that Obama's popularity dropped to 41% in April it is curious.
And what's the consensus, that it's all as simple as impulsive terrorists, revenge and oil? It's times when the conspiracy theories make far more sense than... come to think of it there is no "official" excuse, but whatever it be that mainstreem conservatives believe, that compels you think outside of the box.
I'd love to see a poll, I'd love a visual representation of where people stand at this point.
So, Josh, you're saying Obama's campaign for a 2nd term will be a walk in the park now? Are you good at charts and graphs? We could all PM you our vote on whether or not the US should have hunted down Bin Laden. And another vote on whether or not people should be partying.
I specifically avoided interpreting my message, I left it at curious because that's what it is, however, it will boost his popularity by some degree whether near or far, though most certainly unaffecting his second campaign.
My polling abilities are irrelevant thanks to Microsoft Office, but I was hoping there might be a feature somewhere in the depths of this forum like on a vB.
When asked about the Iran hostage crisis Lama Yeshe said that the US should notify Russia. And then fly a squadron of bombers so low over tehran that they break every window in the city. We really cannot tolerate 9/11. Period. We did not target civilians. Osama did.
Just a reminder: It was Pres. Clinton who first raised the issue of international terrorism, and the need to take preventive measures. At the time, no one knew what he was talking about. Now we know.
People here seem to agree that the killing is bad, but would you have supported an attempt to capture him? And what if he resisted with force?
Just a reminder: It was Pres. Clinton who first raised the issue of international terrorism, and the need to take preventive measures. At the time, no one knew what he was talking about. Now we know.
I read that Clinton had a chance at assassinating OBL but chose not to.
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee." (John Donne)
I regret that Osama Bin Laden was not brought before a court of law and justice done. What has happened is not justice but revenge.
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee." (John Donne)
I regret that Osama Bin Laden was not brought before a court of law and justice done. What has happened is not justice but revenge.
It was not justice, it was the US way, shoot first and maybe ask questions later. If you just go around killing people because they killed people from ''your'' country, you are following a similar mentality don't you think. 'Oh, he organized a mass killing, so it is okay for us to go and kill loads of people and take over ''their'' country. PFFT
If you want more friends give more aid instead of building higher fences.
Budget negotiations to avoid a government shutdown occurred down to the wire late last week, with the inevitable hard choices on all sides. As details of the deal become public, it is worth noting that once again Defense Department spending—which comprises some 20 percent of federal budget—will escape not only free of any cuts but also with a $5 billion increase for the rest of the fiscal year. Meanwhile, the State Department and foreign assistance account—already woefully underfunded—is slashed by $8 billion. So as Republicans begin to applaud the largest nondefense spending cut in our nation’s history, our diplomats are scrambling to figure out which tools they will have left to respond to the tremendous political change underway around the globe.
People go to war and kill other people and they are happy about it. What else is new? People have been doing that for thousands of years and will be doing that for thousands more, what can be done about that?
After the Royal Wedding on Friday, an American visitor said: "Nobody does this sort of thing like the British." Alas, hearing of the raid in Pakistan, I thought: "Nobody does this sort of thing like the Americans."
Let's face it, though: the British only gave up "that sort of thing" when they bankrupted themselves in WWII, destroying their military potential. They were the best in the world at it, before that.
What is the correct Buddhist response to bin Laden's assassination? That's what I want to know.
Personally, I've been breathing a sigh of relief--I've considered it good news that this enemy of peace can no longer trouble the world--but then I read comments like that of Martin Luther King above, and I immediately recognize the transcending wisdom in that; and I wonder: is my reaction a "right response"?
How would the Buddha respond to this? What would be his reaction, upon hearing that bin Laden had been killed? That's the response I want to have. Whatever that mentality is, that's what I want to cultivate in my own thinking.
Can anyone share what they believe that response would be? Either from their own understanding of the Buddha's ways, or from the scriptures?
The Westminster Parliament is the most widely used political system in the world, everywhere it remains underscores expeditions like the US' current spreading of "democracy" but prior to the twenty first century. The Commonwealth isn't like the US because they no longer have the power, but it is in their blood, off track and silly but even archaelogists are being led to believe with overwhelming proof that the Anglo-Saxons mass-exterminated the ancient Britons a la Aryan assault in favor of pure blood.
BTW, not that this has anything to do with this thread, but along the lines of Americans' opinions of the British political system, well, the proof is in the pudding--the English are finally learning the supremacy of the separation of powers, in '09 I believe it was they created a separate judicial branch from the House of Lords, and that silly House of which is attempting to be done away with finally in favor of a Senate, afterwards to should evolve quite nicely into the American system minus the ellectoral college so it's no wonder there would be no "directly" elected president. Nice 'n parallel. (except HM's Privy Council, dumb..)
All I can offer, @zendo, is what I have done and am doing. As a Christian, I have offered prayers for the repose of his soul in perfect union and light. May he rest in peace and rise in glory. As a Buddhist, I have offered whatever merit I may accumulate through my practice this week for his happy, human rebirth.
All I can offer, @zendo, is what I have done and am doing. As a Christian, I have offered prayers for the repose of his soul in perfect union and light. May he rest in peace and rise in glory. As a Buddhist, I have offered whatever merit I may accumulate through my practice this week for his happy, human rebirth.
It is not up to me to forgive Osama Bin Laden, except for the feelings his actions created in me. I cannot forgive him for those he killed. That is up to those individuals and their families and friends.
As far as whether Osama goes to heaven or hell (if there is a heaven or hell), I would think that would be up to where he was in his thinking before and at the time of his death.
Now you may say that I have stated a rather non-Buddhist view, but then again I thought we believed that Buddhism pointed toward a path where the individuals were responsible for their own spiritual progress.
All I can offer, @zendo, is what I have done and am doing. As a Christian, I have offered prayers for the repose of his soul in perfect union and light. May he rest in peace and rise in glory. As a Buddhist, I have offered whatever merit I may accumulate through my practice this week for his happy, human rebirth.
And does your study of Buddhism lead you to conclude that a mass murderer typically gets a "happy, human rebirth"?
Or that a man who masterminded the deaths of innocent men, women, and children, and taught his disciples to commit acts of hatred and violence, merits a "happy" reward?
If so: please show me where in the Buddhist scriptures such things are stated, or where the Buddha himself taught such things; or from what Buddhist teacher you learned these ideas.
Such ideas don't quite ring true with my personal understanding of karma, but I could be wrong.
First I'd like to say that according to news reports, when the Navy SEALS tried to grab Bin Laden, there was a scuffle, and shots were fired. So he resisted, or his guards offered resistance. During this scuffle he was shot in the head. It sounds like there wasn't an opportunity to bring him back alive, but we may never know for sure.
What is the correct Buddhist response to bin Laden's assassination? That's what I want to know.
Mourning or prayer for a life taken, for a person who was a lost soul trapped in samsara, for a world mired in interconnected samsara?
And does your study of Buddhism lead you to conclude that a mass murderer typically gets a "happy, human rebirth"?
Obviously, no, or he wouldn't feel the need to offer OBL merit. If that's how Simon chooses to deal with the occasion, so be it. That offends me a lot less than people partying in front of the White House. I bet Al Jazeera is still broadcasting that scene today.
You asked what an appropriate Buddhist response would be, and Simon gave you his, but you didn't like it. Actually, I think it's a good question deserving of its own thread. That could get interesting.
What is the correct Buddhist response to bin Laden's assassination?
Can anyone share what they believe that response would be? Either from their own understanding of the Buddha's ways, or from the scriptures?
I would be grateful.
In my opinion, the correct response is to notice that he is dead, without fueling any thoughts on the matter. If thoughts arise, sit with them and let them settle.
In observing the celebration response, perhaps only notice that people are disconnected from each other, either unwilling or unable to be compassionate for lost brothers and sisters.
Then, perhaps we could work on our intentional compassion, to heal some of that disconnection inside us, our homes, our neighborhoods, and our world.
First I'd like to say that according to news reports, when the Navy SEALS tried to grab Bin Laden, there was a scuffle, and shots were fired. So he resisted, or his guards offered resistance. During this scuffle he was shot in the head. It sounds like there wasn't an opportunity to bring him back alive, but we may never know for sure.
What is the correct Buddhist response to bin Laden's assassination? That's what I want to know.
Mourning or prayer for a life taken, for a person who was a lost soul trapped in samsara, for a world mired in interconnected samsara?
And does your study of Buddhism lead you to conclude that a mass murderer typically gets a "happy, human rebirth"?
Obviously, no, or he wouldn't feel the need to offer OBL merit. If that's how Simon chooses to deal with the occasion, so be it. That offends me a lot less than people partying in front of the White House. I bet Al Jazeera is still broadcasting that scene today.
You asked what an appropriate Buddhist response would be, and Simon gave you his, but you didn't like it. Actually, I think it's a good question deserving of its own thread. That could get interesting.
First of all, with all due respect: that question was directed toward Simon, not you. It's good etiquette to give him the chance to respond first, rather than cutting in and declaring what he "obviously" thinks. If Simon chooses not to respond, then you shouldn't speak for him, for the simple reason that you're not Simon, and you don't know his mind.
Secondly: when I question someone's response, it isn't because I "don't like" what he said: it's because I want to clarify and/or challenge what he said. Questioning is part of Buddhism, and the Buddha encouraged us to question everything.
You appear to be relatively new to this community, and I'm just meeting you for the first time. I hope you and I can be respectful toward each other. Let's both practice Right Speech, carefully weighing the possible results of our comments, and not just casually throw out incendiary remarks.
"Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves." Majjhima Nikaya 21
I personally think that Osama is most certainly going to experience hell, as are the people that killed him, but I do not wish that upon them. To harbor ill will and hate is to harm yourself.
What is the correct Buddhist response to bin Laden's assassination?
Can anyone share what they believe that response would be? Either from their own understanding of the Buddha's ways, or from the scriptures?
I would be grateful.
In my opinion, the correct response is to notice that he is dead, without fueling any thoughts on the matter. If thoughts arise, sit with them and let them settle.
In observing the celebration response, perhaps only notice that people are disconnected from each other, either unwilling or unable to be compassionate for lost brothers and sisters.
Then, perhaps we could work on our intentional compassion, to heal some of that disconnection inside us, our homes, our neighborhoods, and our world.
This sounds like a very enlightened approach to me, much closer to Right Action than what I was doing.
I am going to practice this. Thank you for this wisdom, aMatt.
"Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves." Majjhima Nikaya 21
I personally think that Osama is most certainly going to experience hell, as are the people that killed him, but I do not wish that upon them. To harbor ill will and hate is to harm yourself.
If there is such a thing as hell, then I think I would agree with you about this.
Which is why I questioned the appropriateness of praying for a "happy rebirth"--if that's clearly not the man's karma, then why try to bring it to pass?
People here seem to agree that the killing is bad, but would you have supported an attempt to capture him? And what if he resisted with force?
According to the reports I've heard so far, this was an attempt to capture him, and he or his bodyguards offered resistance. Shots were fired. OBL was shot and killed during a struggle.
Interesting details: OBL had been living in a compound right nextdoor to a Pakistani military installation. The Pakistan government insists they didn't know he was there. The US says they discovered he'd been living there for months (who knows how long?) by their own intelligence-gathering. Why they chose last weekend to helicopter into his compound wasn't explained. Apparently they'd been watching him for months.
I think it's good to discuss our reaction and opinions on something like this. It's situations such as these that really test our practice. Discussing, sharing opinions and perspectives from the standpoint of teachings and precepts helps us clarify our views, evolve as practitioners, and find a response compatible with the vows we've taken, whatever that reponse may be.
"Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves." Majjhima Nikaya 21
I personally think that Osama is most certainly going to experience hell, as are the people that killed him, but I do not wish that upon them. To harbor ill will and hate is to harm yourself.
If there is such a thing as hell, then I think I would agree with you about this.
Which is why I questioned the appropriateness of praying for a "happy rebirth"--if that's clearly not the man's karma, then why try to bring it to pass?
Thank you for posting these thoughts about love!
No problem! This is good stuff. I do think wishing for evil persons to have happiness is appropriate Buddhist practice and accords with the Buddhas teaching on Metta. Osama Bin Laden and other people like him, are victims of ignorance and this ignorance is what caused them to do these evil things. If they could be freed of this ignorance and find true happiness, then they would not do these evil things anymore. So technically, you could say that wishing for them to find real happiness is equal to wishing them to stop doing evil actions, since finding real happiness inevitably stops evil actions. A noble one is simply unable to commit evil acts. Evil actions almost always produce hate and anger in most people. The Buddha taught that hate and anger is always destructive and the proper antidote for hate and anger is loving kindness. Praying for a happy rebirth for this man is appropriate, I think, because it prevents the unwholesome states of hate and anger from arising, which is a skillful practice.
As I posted in another thread, I liked something I saw on t.v. this morning...along the lines that we are not rejoicing that Osama was killed, we are rejoicing that a terrorist who was responsible for murdering thousands around the world is not longer walking the earth and able to continue his evil ways.
I personally am against us killing him. Though, I would have supported taking him alive, interrogating him, and then sending him to Pakistan to stand trial. He would be hung anyways.
I think Simon's practice of offering merit to OBL sets the bar pretty high for practicing compassion; it challenges us to develop our practice to the point that we offer love and compassion even to our enemies. If we're able to practice this in meditation--broadening our feelings of loving-kindness beyond our friends and relatives to those about whom we feel neutral, and ultimately, to our enemies, can we bring ourselves to practice it when faced in real life with one of the most challenging of conditions?
I personally am against us killing him. Though, I would have supported taking him alive, interrogating him, and then sending him to Pakistan to stand trial. He would be hung anyways.
The latest news is that the US is seriously considering dropping military aid to Pakistan, because it suspects that Pakistan knew that Bin Laden was in his fortress, next door to Pakistan's top military academy, for five years! There's even speculation that Pakistan helped him transfer from his hiding place in the mountains to the compound where he was recently taken by US forces. See Dakini's post above about the possibility that they did try to capture him alive. Given that Pakistan is now suspected of harboring him and hiding him from the US, it's not likely he'd get a death sentence there, possibly not even serious jail time. Lots of questions are raised now, re: Pakistan's relationship to him.
My adopted son is Pakistani and lives in Islamabad, about 40 miles from where they found Osama. He's been to that town and driven right past that "mansion". He says it's a military town, but even it weren't that there's no question that at least some of the power establishment (whether local police or military) would have known who was living there.
You know, I think it's interesting that in this thread that many have pointed accusatory fingers at the American government, saying the Americans should have taken a different approach, both going back in history and in the immediate demise of Osama.
Odd that I haven't really seen anyone saying that Osama should have taken a different path. It was Osama that took the path of radical Islam. It was Osama that declared verbally and in writing that he -- a private citizen -- was declaring war on the United States and its allies. It was Osama that ordered the events of 9/11, with the specific intention of killing men, women, and children. And so forth.
We, as Buddhists, say that we must choose and walk our path. Osama did, knowing full well the probably consequences.
There seems to be an ever increasing amount of “us,” and we,” and “them,” in the language. I try not to be part of it. I am not at war. I did not kill anyone.
When my daughter told me the news, my (admittedly cynical) reaction was, “Does this mean we can have some of our Freedom back? I distinctly remember being told that if we give up our Freedoms, than “the terrorists” have won.” I still remember what a terrorist is. Terrorists are people who use violence (or threats of violence) to achieve political or social goals. Hmm. Sound familiar?
As some famous person long ago observed, “War is the health of the state.” Governments are in the “business” of creating problems and then pretending to offer solutions. Governments teach authoritarian nationalism and call it “Freedom.” Empires (throughout history) always say they have some “good” reason for their imperialism.
We have been conditioned to fear. People in every country, in our earliest (and most influential) years, all around the world, since the earliest beginnings of government, have been taught, by those very governments, in schools controlled by those same governments, to fear. We must fear one thing above anything else. We are subtly told that we must always, and forever, fear the lack of governments.
Well, I ain't buying the fear anymore!
Every time I see a problem, I wonder what a government did to either cause it, or to make it worse. One usually only need to apply a little common sense to see a government's role in most problems on the planet. I refuse to vote in national (congress, senate, or president) elections, and I may even quit voting on the state level.
John and Yoko said, “War Is Over If You Want It!” War is definitely over for me. Please join us. Peace.
There seems to be an ever increasing amount of “us,” and we,” and “them,” in the language. I try not to be part of it. I am not at war. I did not kill anyone.
Do you live in the United States? Do you pay taxes? If you answered yes to each question: you aided in killing many brown people over in the Middle East the past 10 years.
Everyone is part of everything, and so it's rather pointless to make such a connection as that! What is indirect, merely a part of conditions, is not personal. What is important is our own thoughts, speech and actions. Eventually we see that nothing is personal at all; it is all conditions, all selfless.
"Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves." Majjhima Nikaya 21
I personally think that Osama is most certainly going to experience hell, as are the people that killed him, but I do not wish that upon them. To harbor ill will and hate is to harm yourself.
If there is such a thing as hell, then I think I would agree with you about this.
Which is why I questioned the appropriateness of praying for a "happy rebirth"--if that's clearly not the man's karma, then why try to bring it to pass?
Thank you for posting these thoughts about love!
No problem! This is good stuff. I do think wishing for evil persons to have happiness is appropriate Buddhist practice and accords with the Buddhas teaching on Metta. Osama Bin Laden and other people like him, are victims of ignorance and this ignorance is what caused them to do these evil things. If they could be freed of this ignorance and find true happiness, then they would not do these evil things anymore. So technically, you could say that wishing for them to find real happiness is equal to wishing them to stop doing evil actions, since finding real happiness inevitably stops evil actions. A noble one is simply unable to commit evil acts. Evil actions almost always produce hate and anger in most people. The Buddha taught that hate and anger is always destructive and the proper antidote for hate and anger is loving kindness. Praying for a happy rebirth for this man is appropriate, I think, because it prevents the unwholesome states of hate and anger from arising, which is a skillful practice.
Very well put, seeker242: I see what you mean and your words ring true.
My stumbling-block with this principle (and the reason I balked at Simon's comment) goes like this: according to the Buddha, the law which governs rebirth is karma; and according to the law of karma, whatever actions you sow, you will reap results in kind. If a man is thoroughly murderous and evil, spreading hatred and violence to thousands, and killing thousands of innocent men, women, and children, then the law of karma does *not* say that man will be reborn as a "happy human being." On the contrary: the dharma states that "it is very difficult to be born as a human being," and that those who achieve it are fortunate indeed.
If anyone *won't* be reborn as a "happy human being," it's Osama bin Laden--so to pray for that outcome is to pray that the law of karma won't work properly. It's to set our own will against the very will of nature. Why focus our energy on something that isn't meant to be? This man has not sown the seeds that lead to happiness--why then should we hope that he will receive it? That's like saying the law of karma is wrong.
However: as logical as that reasoning sounds to me, your words have the clear ring of truth, and I recognize the correctness of what you're saying; and therefore I must be making an error somewhere. I will give the matter further thought and study, and meanwhile I welcome input from anyone who would like to chime in on the subject.
Comments
Part of the reason we have all those tanks is because Arab nations are most likely not peaceful. Its kind of a done deal. We can't expect them to now be our friend because we reduce the size of our military.
Nobody is blameless. We should be able to agree though that finding alternatives to oil should be one of the biggest priories of our time. Yet all I see are commercials of oil companies telling us how much "research" they are doing to find new fuel sources....
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." Martin Luther King, Jr.
It doesn't seem to be in violence, unless one side completely and utterly destroys the other; and that's not likely to happen unless it's a mutual destruction. I agree that we need to get to the bottom of what has caused all of this, what conditioning has been driving the hate, and try to understand it and reverse the flow. Don't ask me how, but there's more than one man to blame and much more work to be done before this will be over.
The latest news report I just heard, with commentary from a reporter in Pakistan, says they easily could have taken Bin Laden alive and brought him to trial. That's one alternative to killing. Fair enough, Ric--Iraq had nothing to do with Bin Laden, subtract from the tally those senseless deaths and the money spent on the war. Afghanistan is directly related to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, however. For some time, Bin Laden and gang were in a border area. The US had to enter Afghanistan to have access to the region where Bin Laden was hiding. He was said to be crossing back and forth across the border. Furthermore, there were said to be al Qaeda operatives and sympathizers/supporters in Afghanistan. The US is in Afghanistan to fight terrorism. Include at least some, possibly all, the thousands of innocent civilians deaths, deaths of US troops and money spent on that "war", or whatever it is, to the tally. The news report said US drone strikes kill hundreds of people, including children, daily. Is that price worth killing Bin Laden? What about all the other Bin Ladens still at large?
The news report said that this is how the US is fighting terrorism: by targeting the leadership of terrorist groups and their strongholds. So has the war on terrorism changed the rules of military engagement? Any country that suffers a terrorist attack has carte blanche to go after whoever they think the responsible people/organizations are? Spain, Israel, India, Russia--I must be leaving some out--is it open season on mid-Easterners who get identified or misidentified as terrorists? This has not been discussed in the UN Security Council. National governments are acting as vigilantes now? Is this what is required to fight terrorism? Maybe it is, but I don't recall the issue being discussed in global forums, with a vote to scrap international law. Can terrorism be successfully fought by state terrorism? Do two wrongs make a right? Ultimately, what's the difference between grass-roots terrorism and state terrorism? Both sides are convinced they have a grievance.
If the (mostly) young men joining terrorist organizations had educations and jobs, would this problem exist on the scale it does? Would it exist at all?
Would the aggrieved from 9/11 still have closure if Bin Laden had been captured alive and tried? Would the downside to having him in jail the rest of his life be worse than whatever may come of killing him? We'll never know. Is celebrating his murder right? Perhaps we can forgive those who lost loved ones in the tragic events of 9/11 if they let off some steam. But I think as was observed on the "extermination" thread, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
@ federica The newspaper says that one reason he was buried at sea was to not create a place of pilgrimage for his supporters.
And what's the consensus, that it's all as simple as impulsive terrorists, revenge and oil? It's times when the conspiracy theories make far more sense than... come to think of it there is no "official" excuse, but whatever it be that mainstreem conservatives believe, that compels you think outside of the box.
I'd love to see a poll, I'd love a visual representation of where people stand at this point.
Are you good at charts and graphs? We could all PM you our vote on whether or not the US should have hunted down Bin Laden. And another vote on whether or not people should be partying.
My polling abilities are irrelevant thanks to Microsoft Office, but I was hoping there might be a feature somewhere in the depths of this forum like on a vB.
(John Donne)
I regret that Osama Bin Laden was not brought before a court of law and justice done. What has happened is not justice but revenge.
Bad karma, the US army killing innocent iraq civilians by accident and also with intention. I heard it from a friend who fled iraq with her family.
Aid budget - $ 8 bil
If you want more friends give more aid instead of building higher fences.
Budget negotiations to avoid a government shutdown occurred down to the wire late last week, with the inevitable hard choices on all sides. As details of the deal become public, it is worth noting that once again Defense Department spending—which comprises some 20 percent of federal budget—will escape not only free of any cuts but also with a $5 billion increase for the rest of the fiscal year. Meanwhile, the State Department and foreign assistance account—already woefully underfunded—is slashed by $8 billion. So as Republicans begin to applaud the largest nondefense spending cut in our nation’s history, our diplomats are scrambling to figure out which tools they will have left to respond to the tremendous political change underway around the globe.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/04/budget_foreign_affairs.html
Personally, I've been breathing a sigh of relief--I've considered it good news that this enemy of peace can no longer trouble the world--but then I read comments like that of Martin Luther King above, and I immediately recognize the transcending wisdom in that; and I wonder: is my reaction a "right response"?
How would the Buddha respond to this? What would be his reaction, upon hearing that bin Laden had been killed? That's the response I want to have. Whatever that mentality is, that's what I want to cultivate in my own thinking.
Can anyone share what they believe that response would be? Either from their own understanding of the Buddha's ways, or from the scriptures?
I would be grateful.
BTW, not that this has anything to do with this thread, but along the lines of Americans' opinions of the British political system, well, the proof is in the pudding--the English are finally learning the supremacy of the separation of powers, in '09 I believe it was they created a separate judicial branch from the House of Lords, and that silly House of which is attempting to be done away with finally in favor of a Senate, afterwards to should evolve quite nicely into the American system minus the ellectoral college so it's no wonder there would be no "directly" elected president. Nice 'n parallel. (except HM's Privy Council, dumb..)
As far as whether Osama goes to heaven or hell (if there is a heaven or hell), I would think that would be up to where he was in his thinking before and at the time of his death.
Now you may say that I have stated a rather non-Buddhist view, but then again I thought we believed that Buddhism pointed toward a path where the individuals were responsible for their own spiritual progress.
Or that a man who masterminded the deaths of innocent men, women, and children, and taught his disciples to commit acts of hatred and violence, merits a "happy" reward?
If so: please show me where in the Buddhist scriptures such things are stated, or where the Buddha himself taught such things; or from what Buddhist teacher you learned these ideas.
Such ideas don't quite ring true with my personal understanding of karma, but I could be wrong.
You asked what an appropriate Buddhist response would be, and Simon gave you his, but you didn't like it. Actually, I think it's a good question deserving of its own thread. That could get interesting.
In observing the celebration response, perhaps only notice that people are disconnected from each other, either unwilling or unable to be compassionate for lost brothers and sisters.
Then, perhaps we could work on our intentional compassion, to heal some of that disconnection inside us, our homes, our neighborhoods, and our world.
Secondly: when I question someone's response, it isn't because I "don't like" what he said: it's because I want to clarify and/or challenge what he said. Questioning is part of Buddhism, and the Buddha encouraged us to question everything.
You appear to be relatively new to this community, and I'm just meeting you for the first time. I hope you and I can be respectful toward each other. Let's both practice Right Speech, carefully weighing the possible results of our comments, and not just casually throw out incendiary remarks.
Thanks!
"Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves."
Majjhima Nikaya 21
I personally think that Osama is most certainly going to experience hell, as are the people that killed him, but I do not wish that upon them. To harbor ill will and hate is to harm yourself.
I am going to practice this. Thank you for this wisdom, aMatt.
Which is why I questioned the appropriateness of praying for a "happy rebirth"--if that's clearly not the man's karma, then why try to bring it to pass?
Thank you for posting these thoughts about love!
Interesting details: OBL had been living in a compound right nextdoor to a Pakistani military installation. The Pakistan government insists they didn't know he was there. The US says they discovered he'd been living there for months (who knows how long?) by their own intelligence-gathering. Why they chose last weekend to helicopter into his compound wasn't explained. Apparently they'd been watching him for months.
I think it's good to discuss our reaction and opinions on something like this. It's situations such as these that really test our practice. Discussing, sharing opinions and perspectives from the standpoint of teachings and precepts helps us clarify our views, evolve as practitioners, and find a response compatible with the vows we've taken, whatever that reponse may be.
Odd that I haven't really seen anyone saying that Osama should have taken a different path. It was Osama that took the path of radical Islam. It was Osama that declared verbally and in writing that he -- a private citizen -- was declaring war on the United States and its allies. It was Osama that ordered the events of 9/11, with the specific intention of killing men, women, and children. And so forth.
We, as Buddhists, say that we must choose and walk our path. Osama did, knowing full well the probably consequences.
When my daughter told me the news, my (admittedly cynical) reaction was, “Does this mean we can have some of our Freedom back? I distinctly remember being told that if we give up our Freedoms, than “the terrorists” have won.”
I still remember what a terrorist is. Terrorists are people who use violence (or threats of violence) to achieve political or social goals. Hmm. Sound familiar?
As some famous person long ago observed, “War is the health of the state.”
Governments are in the “business” of creating problems and then pretending to offer solutions. Governments teach authoritarian nationalism and call it “Freedom.”
Empires (throughout history) always say they have some “good” reason for their imperialism.
We have been conditioned to fear. People in every country, in our earliest (and most influential) years, all around the world, since the earliest beginnings of government, have been taught, by those very governments, in schools controlled by those same governments, to fear. We must fear one thing above anything else. We are subtly told that we must always, and forever, fear the lack of governments.
Well, I ain't buying the fear anymore!
Every time I see a problem, I wonder what a government did to either cause it, or to make it worse.
One usually only need to apply a little common sense to see a government's role in most problems on the planet. I refuse to vote in national (congress, senate, or president) elections, and I may even quit voting on the state level.
John and Yoko said, “War Is Over If You Want It!”
War is definitely over for me.
Please join us.
Peace.
My stumbling-block with this principle (and the reason I balked at Simon's comment) goes like this: according to the Buddha, the law which governs rebirth is karma; and according to the law of karma, whatever actions you sow, you will reap results in kind. If a man is thoroughly murderous and evil, spreading hatred and violence to thousands, and killing thousands of innocent men, women, and children, then the law of karma does *not* say that man will be reborn as a "happy human being." On the contrary: the dharma states that "it is very difficult to be born as a human being," and that those who achieve it are fortunate indeed.
If anyone *won't* be reborn as a "happy human being," it's Osama bin Laden--so to pray for that outcome is to pray that the law of karma won't work properly. It's to set our own will against the very will of nature. Why focus our energy on something that isn't meant to be? This man has not sown the seeds that lead to happiness--why then should we hope that he will receive it? That's like saying the law of karma is wrong.
However: as logical as that reasoning sounds to me, your words have the clear ring of truth, and I recognize the correctness of what you're saying; and therefore I must be making an error somewhere. I will give the matter further thought and study, and meanwhile I welcome input from anyone who would like to chime in on the subject.
Thanks again for your wise words!