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Nuns on the Run; or, When Gender Equality Meets the Ajahn-Chah-Ajahn Sumedho Tradition
The following is an excerpt from Inquiring Mind, Spring 2011. It is the introductory and explanatory section written by the editors to an article written for Inquiring Mind by Ajahn Thanasanti called "Finding A Way Forward." I reproduced it here (hand typed it) because I cannot find it anywhere online. However, the article it prefaces is a condensed version of Ajahn Thanasanti's blog of 9.9.10 to be found at:
http://awakeningtruth.org/blog/?p=78
"Should she or shouldn't she? Ajahn Thanasanti Bhikkhuni tries to unravel the complicated factors impacting her decision on whether or not to become a fully ordained Buddhist nun (p. 3).
In 1991 Ajahn Thanasanti Bhikkhuni ordained as a siladhara, a unique form of nuns' training formulated ten years earlier by the Ajahn Chah-Ajahn Sumedho Forest Tradition in England. The siladhara order has thrived in England on a small scale despite remaining unrecognized by the larger Buddhist community. The creation of the siladhara community has served the novel intent to support Western women's aspirations to practice as nuns.
A bhikkhuni , unlike a siladhara, is a fully ordained nun whose status in the Buddhist sangha includes the authority to ordain other women. While established by the Buddha, bhikkhuni ordination died out in Theravada Buddhist countries over a millennium ago. In recent years, however, it has been reestablished in a few countries, stirring hope among many, alongside controversy and even condemnation by some.
In 2009 the elders of the Ajahn Chah Sumedho lineage in Thailand reaffirmed its conformance with the Thai Sangha governing council's position that bhikkhuni ordination had cease to exist and could not be legitimately revived there. Likewise, the council of elders in England reaffirmed that the siladhara order should not be seen as a stepping stone to full bhikkhuni ordination for women, and the council required members of the order to acknowledge this in writing . Being asked to sign such a statement threw the siladhara community into turmoil. Numerous siladharas, including Ajahan Thanasanti,left the community in England, with some giving up the nun's life entirely (p. 16)."
mayUallB@eze
bg
http://awakeningtruth.org/blog/?p=78
"Should she or shouldn't she? Ajahn Thanasanti Bhikkhuni tries to unravel the complicated factors impacting her decision on whether or not to become a fully ordained Buddhist nun (p. 3).
In 1991 Ajahn Thanasanti Bhikkhuni ordained as a siladhara, a unique form of nuns' training formulated ten years earlier by the Ajahn Chah-Ajahn Sumedho Forest Tradition in England. The siladhara order has thrived in England on a small scale despite remaining unrecognized by the larger Buddhist community. The creation of the siladhara community has served the novel intent to support Western women's aspirations to practice as nuns.
A bhikkhuni , unlike a siladhara, is a fully ordained nun whose status in the Buddhist sangha includes the authority to ordain other women. While established by the Buddha, bhikkhuni ordination died out in Theravada Buddhist countries over a millennium ago. In recent years, however, it has been reestablished in a few countries, stirring hope among many, alongside controversy and even condemnation by some.
In 2009 the elders of the Ajahn Chah Sumedho lineage in Thailand reaffirmed its conformance with the Thai Sangha governing council's position that bhikkhuni ordination had cease to exist and could not be legitimately revived there. Likewise, the council of elders in England reaffirmed that the siladhara order should not be seen as a stepping stone to full bhikkhuni ordination for women, and the council required members of the order to acknowledge this in writing . Being asked to sign such a statement threw the siladhara community into turmoil. Numerous siladharas, including Ajahan Thanasanti,left the community in England, with some giving up the nun's life entirely (p. 16)."
mayUallB@eze
bg
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
:bawl:
When I was a teenager, I had a girlfriend. At a later time, after the relationship ceased, I recall my former girlfriend telling me why she loved me, which was because I was patient, I was a good listener, I made her feel she was respected, I related to her as an equal, I made her feel understood.
After I left my former girlfriend, I had no interest in relationships anymore and around 20 months later found myself wandering into a monastery in my travels. I devoted myself single-mindedly to meditation but something I noticed is how monks & nuns generally got so distracted in worldly things. Worse, probably due to where i was staying, I was seeing Western monks & nuns often robing & disrobing.
Reading Thanasanti's account brought up the following impressions in my mind. At least for me:
(1) Very uninspiring, like a lost young girl looking for love rather than abiding in liberation.
(2) Distracted my all kinds of worldliness; very self-indulgent.
Did nothing for me. I have seen this kind of behaviour far too often, of beings still searching & wandering through samsara, never finding the end.
All the best
:-/
It's pointless.
It's unfortunate that the Thai sangha appears interested mainly in protecting its institutional authority. At this rate, it will end up as a "sangha" of wizened museum curators, carefully guarding a set of fossils labeled Thai Forest Tradition.
I think its a good idea to investigate everything connected with the Forest Tradition issue thoroughly before making such insulting remarks yourself too, Lazy eye !
The Thai Forest tradition has turned my life around after my experiences with a different tradition. I have a lot to thank it for as a lay woman who doesn't feel it's necessary for me to take ordination in order to practice in solitude and follow the precepts.
- and as I said previously, Tibetan Buddhist nuns can't get full ordination either, they have to go elsewhere to get it.
.
And saying it's all about "bhikkhuni ordination had cease to exist and could not be legitimately revived there" is certainly hiding behind tradition. Here's a thought. Don't have separate male and female ordination. Just have ordination. Make a new tradition. Our Buddhist order welcomed women into an active role in all aspects, and a woman was given Dharma Transmission by Master Seung Sahn here in the US, and nobody in Korea has a problem with it.
http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=382&Itemid=8
Regards
It does hurt to hear one's tradition criticized?
Sorry, I'm not really clear about what you're saying to me, or why you're saying it, Jeffrey.
....and yes, you're right, this could be your own karma ripening ! LOL !
:screwy:
The lady appears to already have transgressed the bhikkhuni Vinaya, in her unwarranted & uncontrolled emotional criticisms born of "self-cherishing".
This bhikkhuni gives the impression she has been watching too many videos of Ajahn Brahm or The Dalai Lama and regards the life of a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni to be that of a rock star or pop star.
In short, her public outcry is indicative of a mind not yet free from passion nor self-views. It warrants censure, especially from lay Buddhists. You seem to be confusing worldly goals with spiritual goals. Plus this lady had the opportunity to ordain as a bhikkhuni. There was nothing to prevent her. Bhikkhuni ordination has been available for decades, in Taiwan, Hong Kong and now California & Sri Lanka.
It was not necessary for her to demand so much personal attention and speak so much false criticism. Sadly, in my mind, her speech was false speech.
The Buddha's expectations of his monks & nuns are listed here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.budd.html I doubt that very much. The only fossil will be yourself, with your wandering around various websites all of these years. The Thai Forest Sangha have done very well and will continue to do well.
In short, you have no idea of what you are saying here. You are another Westerner speaking in an uninformed manner with both cultural ignorance & cultural imperialism.
Try educating yourself at this link:
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/showthread.php?843-My-quot-Rogue-Nun-quot-avatar-Ajahn-Thanasanti
All the best
Better still, educate yourself using the link in the above post.
Seriously, the cultural imperialism here is of grave concern.
Religions and religious traditions are not developed in a vacuum. As an institution, Buddhism is no different from any other world religion when it comes to reflecting the values of the cultures it exists within. The Catholic church still refuses to allow women full equality, saying it's supported by scripture. Your tradition does the same, for the same reasons. That doesn't mean your teachings and practice are not valid and reflect the Dharma. Temple rules and rules of rank have nothing to do with the Dharma. That's nothing but administrative detail and old men clinging to authority.
My mind was just a blip above UNDERwhelmed with your cut & paste butchering of a hack job. My question was designed to induce clarification and it succeeded.
Regards,
bg
"May we, in America, bring a sense of balance to the gender issues in monastic Buddhism. May monasticism in the feminine form flourish in America and provide opportunity for many more women to experience the joy of deep practice. May we all, women and men, nuns, monks, and lay people, be well and free from harm and danger. May we be at peace and bring heart and empathy to the issues at hand.
Jill Boone, Lisa Domitrovich, Wren Writhers
The Board of Directors, Saranaloka Foundation"
from: http://www.saranaloka.org/letter_jill-4-2011.html
Regards,
bg
http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/teachers/
Warmly,
bg
Traditionally, Theravada Buddhism has observed a distinction between the practices suitable for a lay person and the practices undertaken by ordained monks (in ancient times, there was a separate body of practices for nuns). While the possibility of significant attainment by laymen is not entirely disregarded by the Theravada, it generally occupies a position of less prominence than in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions, with monastic life being hailed as a superior method of achieving Nirvana.[64] The view that Theravada, unlike other Buddhist schools, is primarily a monastic tradition has, however, been disputed.[65]
This distinction between ordained monks and laypeople - as well as the distinction between those practices advocated by the Pali Canon, and the folk religious elements embraced by many monks - have motivated some scholars to consider Theravada Buddhism to be composed of multiple separate traditions, overlapping though still distinct. Most prominently, the anthropologist Melford Spiro in his work Buddhism and Society separated Burmese Theravada into three groups: Apotropaic Buddhism (concerned with providing protection from evil spirits), Kammatic Buddhism (concerned with making merit for a future birth), and Nibbanic Buddhism (concerned with attaining the liberation of Nirvana, as described in the Tipitaka). He stresses that all three are firmly rooted in the Pali Canon. These categories are not accepted by all scholars, and are usually considered non-exclusive by those who employ them.
The role of lay people has traditionally been primarily occupied with activities that are commonly termed merit making (falling under Spiro's category of kammatic Buddhism). Merit making activities include offering food and other basic necessities to monks, making donations to temples and monasteries, burning incense or lighting candles before images of the Buddha, and chanting protective or merit-making verses from the Pali Canon. Some lay practitioners have always chosen to take a more active role in religious affairs, while still maintaining their lay status. Dedicated lay men and women sometimes act as trustees or custodians for their temples, taking part in the financial planning and management of the temple. Others may volunteer significant time in tending to the mundane needs of local monks (by cooking, cleaning, maintaining temple facilities, etc.). Lay activities have traditionally not extended to study of the Pali scriptures, nor the practice of meditation, though in the 20th Century these areas have become more accessible to the lay community, especially in Thailand.
Thai monks on pilgrimage in their orange robes.
A number of senior monastics in the Thai Forest Tradition, including Ajahn Buddhadasa, Luang Ta Maha Bua, Ajahn Plien Panyapatipo, Ajahn Pasanno, and Ajahn Jayasaro, have begun teaching meditation retreats outside of the monastery for lay disciples.
In the UK, Ajahn Chah a disciple of Ajahn Mun, set up a monastic lineage at Chithurst in West Sussex, "Cittaviveka", with his disciple Ajahn Sumedho, then "Amaravati" in Hertfordshire was founded which has a retreat center for lay retreats. Ajahn Sumedho extended this to Harnham in Northumberland as Aruna Ratanagiri under the present guidance of Ajahn Munindo, another disciple of Ajahn Chah.
Nirvana, the highest goal of Theravada Buddhism, is attained through study and the practice of morality, meditation and wisdom (sila, samadhi, panna). The goal of Nirvana (and its associated techniques) have traditionally been seen as the domain of the fully ordained monastic, whereas many of the same techniques can be used by laypeople to generate happiness in their lives, without focusing on Nirvana. Monastic roles in the Theravada can be broadly described as being split between the role of the (often urban) scholar monk and the (often rural or forest) meditation monk. Both types of monks serve their communities as spiritual teachers and officiants by presiding over spiritual ceremonies and providing instruction in basic Buddhist morality and teachings.
Scholar monks undertake the path of studying and preserving the Pali literature of the Theravada. They may devote little time to the practice of meditation, but may attain great respect and renown by becoming masters of a particular section of the Pali Canon or its commentaries. Masters of the Abhidhamma, called Abhidhammika, are particularly respected in the scholastic tradition.
Meditation monks, often called forest monks because of their association with certain wilderness-dwelling traditions, are considered to be specialists in meditation. While some forest monks may undertake significant study of the Pali Canon, in general meditation monks are expected to learn primarily from their meditation experiences and personal teachers, and may not know more of the Tipitaka than is necessary to participate in liturgical life and to provide a foundation for fundamental Buddhist teachings. More so than the scholastic tradition, the meditation tradition is associated with the attainment of certain supernatural powers described in both Pali sources and folk tradition. These powers include the attainment of Nirvana, mind-reading, supernatural power over material objects and their own material bodies, seeing and conversing with gods and beings living in hell, and remembering their past lives. These powers are called abhiñña. Sometimes the remain of the cremated bone fragment of an accomplished forest monk is believed able to transform itself into crystal-like relics (sārira-dhātu).
No I just cut and pasted it
Being a lama of either sex in Tibetan Buddhism doesn't require ordination as a monk or a nun. Its optional to be ordained. Usually the title 'lama' is conferred on someone after they've done at least a 3 year closed retreat and then been given the title by highter lamas in a lineage. Some higher lamas seem to give the title to people more easily than others. Lots of westerners do 3 year retreats, not many of them are given the title 'lama.' - and again, things vary from one school to another in Tibetan Buddhism.
As for your remark which I couldn't understand because of the way it is phrased/written - no it doesn't "hurt" because I'm not attached to "traditions" when I'm debating them.
I understand what a lama is.
Now I understand what you were looking for on my remark. I am glad you are not defensive of your tradition. That is remarkable not to be attached.
"Trungpa Rinpoche who was the first to bring the Tibetan dharma to the west was not a monk. At least not when he was in America."
I met Trungpa Rinpoche Jeffrey. He was my first encounter with Tibetan Buddhism.
He was a monk when he first came to the west. He gave up the robes in England so that he could have sex with women, take drugs and drink alcohol.
.
AFAIK the Bikkhuni ordination taken by nuns in China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea and so on are from the Dharmagupta tradition. IIRC the bikkhuni lineage in the Sarvastivada tradition, which the Theravada subscribe to, died out.
As Ajaan Geoff (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) has instructed:
"The word Sangha, on the external level, has two senses: conventional and ideal. In its ideal sense, the Sangha consists of all people, lay or ordained, who have practiced the Dhamma to the point of gaining at least a glimpse of the Deathless. In a conventional sense, Sangha denotes the communities of ordained monks and nuns. The two meanings overlap but are not necessarily identical. Some members of the ideal Sangha are not ordained; some monks and nuns have yet to touch the Deathless. All those who take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha become members of the Buddha's four-fold assembly (parisa) of followers: monks, nuns, male lay devotees, and female lay devotees. Although there's a widespread belief that all Buddhist followers are members of the Sangha, this is not the case. Only those who are ordained are members of the conventional Sangha; only those who have glimpsed the Deathless are members of the ideal Sangha. Nevertheless, any followers who don't belong to the Sangha in either sense of the word still count as genuine Buddhists in that they are members of the Buddha's PARISA" (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/refuge.html)
plezeB@eze
Bucky
In the Pali suttas, the Buddha ordained women.
The current matter is one of culture and not a matter of religion.
The Thai culture & society does not support the ordination of women, especially Thai women.
Monasticism in Thailand is not a monastic system. It is a cultural & social system, where, due to the demands of their mothers & prospective wives, each Thai man will undergo training as a monk for 3 to 4 months to prepare him to be a husband.
At any one time, there can be over a million men in robes, that must be supported.
At the same time, there are multitudes of Thai men & women living in monastaries, often for superstitious reasons.
The general Thai society is not in favour of female ordination because it does not support their cultural values and the monastic system could not cope with the extra burden of multitudes of women ordaining.
As for temples, everyone bows. If you are a young monk, you bow to senior monks. The purpose of bowing is to wipe away the ego.
But your post is about building the ego.
When I say Western cultural imperialists have no idea about what they talking about, I mean it, sincerely, truthfully.
Again, I suggest the previous link to educate yourself.
Regards
If the Deathless has not been touched after 20 years as a 10-precept nun then bhikkhuni ordination will not help
About robes or alms, the Buddha said: "Be my heir to Dhamma and not to material things".
:om:
I thought cultural imperialism went out with Edward Said?
plezeB@eze
Bucky
Cultural imperialism or cultural aggression is the appropriate phrase given it is understood.
Asian culture suffered enough from the Western world during the colonialist era and the culture that supported the Dhamma that nurtured many Westerners to enlightenment does not require to be lectured by Western cultural imperialists and aggressors.
If your nun friend remains unenlightened after 20 years then that's too bad.
I am sorry. But a robe and fame will not help her in acheiving enlightenment.
Worse, her femininist rhetoric & clinging to her female form will not help either because the Buddha unambiguously advised this is a salient obstacle to enlightenment.
These teachers nurtured many lay teachers, both men & women, especially Western.
The ordination vehicle is most useful for those who wish to devote their lives to study & teaching the Buddha-Dhamma.
It offers a better meal ticket and opportunities to teach. It is a better form of Right Livelihood.
The new bhikkhunis have instant "fame" and instant "guru" status.
I am not saying this is a bad thing. It is a good thing. It is part of the bhikkhu/bhikkhuni way of life. It provides secular opportunities and a chance to develop oneself as a teacher, which is actually really important.
As for assisting meditation, it will not help here, as the above teachers understand.
Like any monastic institution, a female monastery will require very strong leadership
Monastaries are similar to the secular world and, just like workplaces that are dominated by women, there will be the same pressures
I lived in a monastery once as a layman. I recall when this Australian lady visited and, whilst I did not really associate with her, the gossip was she attained stream entry
Then all the Western 10 precent nuns started to develop a hierachy around this laywoman who was a stream enterer
I recall talking to her as she was leaving and asked: "Why are you going?" She replied: "This place is crazy! Those nuns are crazy!"
At a later time, the Abbott came to me and said: "Why are you not friends with the 10-precept nun? You are both Australian".
Now the nun was quite isolated & lonely and assuming the Abbot's motive of wanting me to give her emotional support because he needed her to look after visitors and teach, I looked at him incredulously and in silence walked away.
Eventually, the Australian nun left the monastery, with the usual blame & bitterness.
In my mind, little changes with these changes in worldly structure. If there is not a very strong leader here, the same human issues occur.
Orange robes to not transform real people in the way a flying suit transformed Clark Kent into Superman.
All the best