Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Nuns on the Run; or, When Gender Equality Meets the Ajahn-Chah-Ajahn Sumedho Tradition
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
plezeB@eze
Bucky
I agree. I used to stay at a Tibetan Buddhist monastery and noted there was a 'pecking order' and obvious jealousies between nuns .... and indeed one nun even physically attacked a monk who had been her former boyfriend, over a disagreement between them.
Unfortunately people still carry their misperceptions around with them, robed or not.
Let's assume for a moment what you call "cultural imperialism" is valid and relevant. A necessary condition for "CI" is that the "out" group comes from their cultural location and invades the "in" group in their cultural location. It is impossible to meet this condition because most of the "reaction" is taking place outside of Thailand. The only place Thai culture is under threat is in your mind.
Regards
plezeB@eze
Bucky
Hmmm I was meaning that she wasn't in actual Tibet. She was in the Tibetan place of exhile. Which I guess is in India though perhaps Nepal.
""Trungpa Rinpoche who was the first to bring the Tibetan dharma to the west was not a monk. At least not when he was in America."
I met Trungpa Rinpoche Jeffrey. He was my first encounter with Tibetan Buddhism."
I specifically refered to when he came to america. I don't think there is an example of a leader being such a lay person in the Theravada. Again I feel you have missed the point.
"He was a monk when he first came to the west. He gave up the robes in England so that he could have sex with women, take drugs and drink alcohol."
Well he was doing those things when he was in robes as well!
You have a wrong quote of me. I think a mistake. My question to you was whether you thought only that particular lady should not be allowed ordination. Or if this extended to all females in general.
Thanks.
Or did you mean that quotation was in the wikipedia article I had sited?
This is excerpt from http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=382&Itemid=8#elders-council, an excellent article on the history of this controversy and why it's so important to Modern Buddhism.
"The intention in putting these points in writing rather than leaving them vague and presumed was mainly so that in future people who wish to request the training are able to make a fully-informed choice. To this end they would be included as part of the preparation for male and female candidates for ordination – so they would not be unfairly surprised somewhere down the road, and can choose a different tradition if they wish. We understand and respect the feelings of anyone who may not find this system of practice helpful. For now, this is what we feel we can offer. We discussed at length the wording of the points, which, of course, is not set in stone and could always be adjusted if unhelpful. While not everyone was entirely happy with the language, at the time it was felt that, although the legal-like bluntness could give the wrong impression, in the long term it was more likely to minimize misunderstandings. The hope was that, by making it clear from the beginning, the choice to undertake this particular training could be made as consciously as possible.
The points themselves are as follows:
(1) 'The structural relationship, as indicated by the Vinaya, of the Bhikkhu Sangha to the Siladhara Sangha is one of seniority, such that the most junior bhikkhu is ‘senior’ to the most senior siladhara. As this relationship of seniority is defined by the Vinaya, it is not considered something we can change.'
Again, this is an aspect of the tradition we have always seen as required by the understanding of Vinaya in our lineage. It is not meant to be taken personally, but relates in a ceremonial way to the choreography of who bows and who leads. The Bhikkhu Sangha is considered ‘senior to’ the Siladhara Sangha in terms of ordination; while this follows the pattern of the bhikkhu/bhikkhuni relationship, the siladhara have their basis in the Vinaya on the Ten Precepts of the samaneri.
(2) 'In line with this, leadership in ritual situations where there are both bhikkhus and siladhara – such as giving the anumodana or Precepts, leading the chanting or giving a talk – is presumed to rest with the senior bhikkhu present. He may invite a siladhara to lead; if this becomes a regular invitation it does not necessarily imply a new standard of shared leadership.'
This has also been an aspect of the way we conduct our choreography which we understand to be required, given that the siladhara community is defined in reference to the samaneri pabbajja. ‘Shared leadership’ here refers only to ceremonial situations. In community life both bhikkhus and siladhara lead in the various decision-making bodies on all levels. Stating it like this is part of the attempt at clarity; it is not intended necessarily to change the way things have been done recently, but rather to avoid confusion as the two communities continue to grow in the future.
(3) 'The Bhikkhu Sangha is responsible for the siladhara pabbajja, in the way Luang Por Sumedho was in the past. The siladhara should look to the Bhikkhu Sangha for ordination and guidance rather than exclusively to Luang Por. A candidate for siladhara pabbajja should receive acceptance from the Siladhara Sangha, and should then receive approval by the Bhikkhu Sangha as represented by those bhikkhus who sit on the Elders' Council.'
For the twenty-six years since Ajahn Sumedho sought permission from elders of the Thai Sangha to give the pabbajja and develop the siladhara training, he alone has taken responsibility for the ordination. By asking the Bhikkhu Sangha to carry this on in the future he hopes to ensure continued validation for the siladhara within our tradition once he passes away. The bhikkhus have agreed to offer the pabbajja and thereby validate and vouch for the nuns within our lineage. In the past Luang Por himself would approve the candidates put forward by the siladhara community and the Elders’ Council would be informed. Now siladhara applicants will go through the same process as bhikkhu applicants: the proposal will be presented to the Elders’ Council; if accepted the preceptor will be informed and the ceremony arranged. For the most part this is usually a formality.
(4) 'The formal ritual of the giving of pavarana by the Siladhara Sangha to the Bhikkhu Sangha should take place at the end of the Vassa as it has in our communities traditionally, in keeping with the structure of the Vinaya.'
The ceremony of giving pavarana (ritual invitation to admonition) is performed each year to mark the end of the three-month Vassa. Along with each nun and monk formally inviting that admonishment from members of their own communities, it also involves the siladhara community that has spent the Vassa in that monastery giving pavarana to the bhikkhu community that did the same, by bowing and chanting a short verse. In keeping with our understanding of Vinaya, the Bhikkhu Sangha cannot reciprocate in the same ritual way by bowing to the siladhara. However, we treat the ritual as ceremonial only, and there is an understanding at all times that each community invites the other to let them know if there is anything they need to point out. If it is something to do with training, the monks or the nuns will do so through their seniors. The introduction of a monk to act as a reference person for the nuns is also meant to ease this process when necessary.
(5) 'The siladhara training is considered to be a vehicle fully suitable for the realization of liberation, and is respected as such within our tradition. It is offered as a complete training as it stands, and not as a step in the evolution towards a different form such as bhikkhuni ordination.'
This refers to what the siladhara form can provide. It is what it is. We try to make it clear that as a community of diverse individuals from different backgrounds and with a variety of abilities, this is what we feel ready and able to offer. It should not be seen as a necessarily incomplete step towards something else. Luang Por’s encouragement with both the monks’ and the nuns’ training has always been to work within the tradition we have. The siladhara training contains procedures for changes to be made to the discipline if a need arises, and these can always be followed (though this has rarely been necessary over the past 25 years)." Clarifying what is offered, we trust that those who choose to practise with it can settle into their training without the distraction of having to think about how to make it into something else.
"With the Vinaya...the idea of trying to keep the Vinaya pure, the personality view attaches even to this: 'Is my Vinaya as pure as someone else's or not as pure?' Then your just using conventions to increase the sense of personal worth or worthlessness. If you think you're more pure than the rest, then that's ARROGANCE, HOLIER-THAN-THOU.... Conventions...are limited..., [&] like anything else anicca, dukkha, anatta.... THERAVADA...is a convention...of Buddhism... [&] whether you find it all agreeable...or not [it] IS A TRADITION WITH A LOT OF POWER..." (Ajahn Sumedho, Intuitive Awareness, pp. 122-123, my emphases).
b@eze
Bucky
This has been reduced to a tit-for-tat, quid-pro-quo pointless discussion neither proving, nor clarifying anything.
As usual, take it to PMs if all you can do is score points.
I will caution and remind all participants that politeness and civility, are of paramount importance, and ad hominem attacks and personal remarks have no place in a debate or discussion.
Kindly bear that at the forefront of your minds, and make sure your fingertips follow suit.
Bye all.