Did they kill the real Osama?

hermitwin

By midday yesterday, I had three phone calls from Arabs, all certain that it was Bin Laden's double who was killed by the Americans.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-was-he-betrayed-of-course-pakistan-knew-bin-ladens-hiding-place-all-along-2278028.html

vinlyn

Yawn.
Just like the Pakistani party I went to in Virginia a couple of years ago, where every Pakistani I talked with brought up the topic of 9/11 and was sure that it was either staged by the CIA or the Jews.
Double yawn.

compassionate_warrior

If that was his double, what was his double doing living with Bin Laden's wives? Bin Laden asked a double to live with his wives, under guard, in Abbotabad, while Bin Laden himself decided to eke out an existence in a cave, or who knows where? Of course we're not surprised there are conspiracy theories, but what evidence is there to support them?

Mr_Serenity

There are a lot of conspiracies worth taking a look at, as I browse Abovetopsecret.com every other day. But I assure you they got the real Osama. They wouldn't have interrupted live television and went on to celebrate the way they did if they killed a fake. It just wouldn't work that way.

It's good to seek the truth, but when you are making every story into a conspiracy theory it's no longer "awakened" it's more just being paranoid.

compassionate_warrior

Conspiracy theories may be a form of gossip, or fill that need in people. After the Karmapa escaped to India, I'm told the teahouses and restaurants in Dharamsala were full of people speculating that he was a Chinese spy, why was this one chosen, the letter from the 16th Karmapa identifying his rebirth was forged, on and on. People need something to talk about. Something exciting and controversial.

vinlyn

So let's see...the US government says we got Osama. The Taliban confirmed it. Al Queda confirmed it. Gee, that's good enough for me.

compassionate_warrior

All those who don't believe it can do, is wait and see. Or Al Qaeda could really fake everyone out, and have a double of OBL do a video of himself saying he's the real deal, and that the guy dumped at sea was a double. Wouldn't that be something? The CIA would be all over that video, analyzing it to try to determine if it was OBL or a double. :eek2: :crazy:

buddhajunkie

Or maybe the Pakistanis, not wanting to upset Al Queda sympathizers, dressed up like Americans to kill the real bin Laden. Obama takes the credit, but unbeknownst to him, the American shadow government, wanting to save the terrorist who justifies their imperialism, put a double in place of the real bin Laden, who will soon make a surprise appearance on the eve of the presidential election, turning the tide against Obama and ensuring a continued military presence in the Middle East and further erosion of individual rights...

Daozen

Yes, on the balance of evidence, i think they got him.

Conspiracy theorists won't believe it whatever evidence you give them (photo, video, DNA) they just say fake fake fake.

Dakini

Maybe Obama ordered the Seals to stage his capture to increase his ratings at home. He'll be gearing up for a 2nd presidential campaign in awhile...
(Kidding, of course. Just another conspiracy theory to add to the collection.);)

CosmicGypsy

I think it's unfair to just brush it off as conspiracy theorists. The whole episode stinks to high heaven and there's valid questions being asked. The amount of contradictions and lies from the people involved attracts suspicion. I could list a whole host of contradictions and puzzling claims/facts surrounding this saga.

What would people think if the Russian government made such claims? Would anybody believe them? If Iran said they'd got him, who'd believe them? But we're supposed to suspend caution and believe the US government. This story is being accepted not because of evidence or facts, but because the source is the US government.

For me it's the boy who cried wolf, I can't believe it. The only thing I believe for sure is that Osama is dead. Whether it was May 2nd, April 28th or years ago. My personal opinion is that he has been dead long before this May.

vinlyn

I think it's unfair to just brush it off as conspiracy theorists. The whole episode stinks to high heaven and there's valid questions being asked. The amount of contradictions and lies from the people involved attracts suspicion. I could list a whole host of contradictions and puzzling claims/facts surrounding this saga.

What would people think if the Russian government made such claims? Would anybody believe them? If Iran said they'd got him, who'd believe them? But we're supposed to suspend caution and believe the US government. This story is being accepted not because of evidence or facts, but because the source is the US government.

For me it's the boy who cried wolf, I can't believe it. The only thing I believe for sure is that Osama is dead. Whether it was May 2nd, April 28th or years ago. My personal opinion is that he has been dead long before this May.

Fine. Give us some concrete evidence.

CosmicGypsy

Concrete evidence of what?

vinlyn

You said: "My personal opinion is that he has been dead long before this May."

Give us some concrete evidence.

Mountains

These are the same people who don't believe Barack Obama was born in the US, that man's activities are responsible in part for global climate change, that America sent men to the moon, nor that the earth is spherical.

I think it comes down to the fact that they're afraid because most other people are smarter than they are.

Believe me, I've been inside the intelligence world and held a very high security clearance. The US just isn't capable of keeping a really big secret such as that, if it were true. Which it isn't.

vinlyn

Believe me, I've been inside the intelligence world and held a very high security clearance. The US just isn't capable of keeping a really big secret such as that, if it were true. Which it isn't.

I think I agree. The days of most governments truly keeping a lid on news seems to be mostly over. Mostly that's good...though sometimes I think we are less safe because of it.

CosmicGypsy

These are the same people who don't believe Barack Obama was born in the US, that man's activities are responsible in part for global climate change, that America sent men to the moon, nor that the earth is spherical.

I think it comes down to the fact that they're afraid because most other people are smarter than they are.

Believe me, I've been inside the intelligence world and held a very high security clearance. The US just isn't capable of keeping a really big secret such as that, if it were true. Which it isn't.

But there's nothing to suggest that people who believe Obama isn't a citizen of America also don't believe the US story on Osama. The people who doubt Obama is a citizen are Republican loons, hardly the conspiracy Demographic or the type of people who question anything to do with the War on Terror. In fact if you did a poll you'd probably find most who question the current story on Bin Laden are left-leaning(who actually believe most things you suggested they don't). Obama not being a citizen is largely Tea Party nonsense restricted to Republicans.

But this is the idea, lets just throw all "conspiracy theorists" under the bus and make blanket statements. Rather than take views or ideas on their own merit, just stereotype and slander everyone with ad-homs.

The onus is on the US government to prove they killed bin Laden on May 2nd. Until they do that, most won't believe them. That doesn't make people stupid. It makes them cautious of a government with a track-record for lying and conspiring against them.

CosmicGypsy

You said: "My personal opinion is that he has been dead long before this May."

Give us some concrete evidence.

I can't give concrete evidence of opinion. If I had concrete evidence it wouldn't be my opinion, it would be fact.

Mountains

Regardless of your political affiliation, the need to believe in conspiracy theories demonstrates some underlying inability to think and analyze for one's self, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence refuting the theories. It matters not if you're left, right, middle, up, down, or sideways.

vinlyn

You said: "My personal opinion is that he has been dead long before this May."

Give us some concrete evidence.

I can't give concrete evidence of opinion. If I had concrete evidence it wouldn't be my opinion, it would be fact.

Exactly.

Dakini

I think Gypsy has a point, in that the US gov't has a history of duplicity, or whatever you want to call it. And the media: remember when they toppled the statue of Sadam, and there was footage on the news of people rejoicing? That was a film clip (the crowds rejoicing part) taken from a completely different occasion, different year, different country, if I recall correctly.

BUT: I'm not going to lose sleep over this. There are probably other terrorists out there, for anyone into losing sleep.

zidangus

These conspiracy theories are really silly, are there actually any that have proven to be true ?
I mean the 9/11 planes being holograms, fake moon landings, where do people get these ideas from ?
As for the bin laden double theory, sure its possible, so don't be surprised if we see a video released by al qaeda soon with bin laden laughing at the west. Tough I am sure if that happens there will be another conspiracy theory saying its not him it was his double.
:scratch:

compassionate_warrior

See my 3rd post from the top, about Al Qaeda having a double say he's OBL, and the body dumped at sea was a double. I think part of the problem is, as Dakini implied, it's the US doing this, and the US doesn't have good credibility. So that gives rise to conspiracy theories. Or maybe it's a matter of the US being the government people love to hate. Conspiracy theories become a kind of sport. :crazy:

johnathan

I'm not saying I think he's dead or not... To me it just doesn't make sense to have killed him. He was the leader of an organization they wanted to take down. Taking out Osama doesn't take down the organization... only makes a martyr out of him and strengthens the movement.

To me, and this is not a conspiracy theory, just my take on how I would have had it play out if I was Obama... Have it appear that Osama was killed but take him as a prisoner and hide him away somewhere...

-This would appease all those still suffering from 9/11 (to a small degree as there loved ones cannot be brought back)

-It would eliminate Arab countries continually seeking his release or acting out until he is released.

-Provide the military with the person with the most information on the organization they are trying to eliminate and use that info to do so.

-Make the PR on the war seem better as such an "apparent" blow was made to Al-Qaeda.

Killing him just doesn't make any military sense to me...

Dakini

It's an extremely tricky question. Any of several options has a downside. Take him as a war prisoner and hide him away without trial? Potential human rights outcry, especially from the Mid-East. Any option is no-win, basically

Mountains

To me, and this is not a conspiracy theory, just my take on how I would have had it play out if I was Obama... Have it appear that Osama was killed but take him as a prisoner and hide him away somewhere...

Sounds good in theory, but in practice, it would never work. Consider:

1. Even though we have imprisonment without trial (or even charges) - and *boy* does it give me the willies to say that - in the United States, we don't have a history (yet) of detaining people indefinitely without at least acknowledging the fact, and identifying who and where they are for the most part. We're headed that direction, but right now, we don't do that. That's the hallmark of repressive regimes like China, the Soviet Union, Burma, etc, etc. It's not how we do things in the US (fingers crossed).

2. If we were to do that, think of the number of people who would have to be aware of his incarceration. Do you think it's possible for *all* of those people to keep their mouths shut about it forever? As I said, I've been in the intel world, and I can tell you for a fact the answer is 'no'. And even more so in this age of blabbermouths like Julian Assange and the internet

3. MIlitarily it might not have made sense to you to kill him, but the symbolism of the act FAR outweighs any common sense in this matter. OBL is the acknowledged mastermind of the entire 9/11 plot (and many others), and continued to be a huge presence not only for al Qaeda worldwide, but in the minds of Americans and many other people around the world (not in a good way). The psychological 'victory' is what Obama was going for.

zidangus

Sounds good in theory, but in practice, it would never work. Consider:

1. Even though we have imprisonment without trial (or even charges) - and *boy* does it give me the willies to say that - in the United States, we don't have a history (yet) of detaining people indefinitely without at least acknowledging the fact, and identifying who and where they are for the most part. We're headed that direction, but right now, we don't do that. That's the hallmark of repressive regimes like China, the Soviet Union, Burma, etc, etc. It's not how we do things in the US (fingers crossed).

The treatment of the alleged wiki leaker Bradley Manning, suggests that the USA are not that consistent on issues such as human rights when it comes to legal trials.

http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/Bradley_Manning#Complaints_about_detention.2C_government_response

Another fact that I find rather surprising is that the USA has not signed up to the international criminal court either, so if a US citizen were involved in war crimes they could not be tried at the hague, I believe they would be tried inhouse, with a military court for military personnel, which is not a very transparent process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court

zidangus

First link didnt seem to work so I'll do it again :buck:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning

hermitwin

Exactly how many people went to prison for
the My Lai massacre in vietnam?

Jeffrey

If that was a double whoever it was really took one for the team, an expression.

Mountains

The US has a pretty abysmal record on this stuff. The fact that we aren't a signatory to the ICC irks me beyond words. We're too good for that. If we *were* signatories, a number of American politicians of recent note would (should) be on trial there, but let's not go down that road right now.

compassionate_warrior

If that was a double whoever it was really took one for the team, an expression.

Great point, Jeffrey! But then again..."taking one for the team" is what suicide bombers do. It's remotely conceivable that someone might choose to do that as OBL. But I still can't see OBL giving his wives away to some double...