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[Bookclub] Has Buddhism Been Distorted to Perpetuate Suffering?

DakiniDakini Veteran
edited May 2011 in General Banter
Author says, "The power of organized religion to provide sovereign states with a bulwark of moral legitimacy while simultaneously assuaging the desperate piety of the disempowered swiftly reasserted itself--usually by subsuming the rebellious ideas into the canons of a revised orthodoxy. "(pg. 16)

Has Buddhism become a tool of state power structures to convince the disempowered to accept their lot, rather than to agitate for change and an end to suffering? Does, or has Buddhism historically, functioned to maintain the status quo? Is it in some countries a subtle method for guaranteeing the populace's docility on behalf of powerful elites? Or is Batchelor wrong? Is there a risk that Buddhism could be misused this way?

("Accept what is", "it's due to your past life karma", criticizing is "wrong speech", misinterpretations abound that could be misused.)

[Mod Edit: "Bookclub" tag added.]

Comments

  • Has Buddhism become a tool of state power structures to convince the disempowered to accept their lot, rather than to agitate for change and an end to suffering?
    In some places at some times.
    Does, or has Buddhism historically, functioned to maintain the status quo?
    In some places at some times.
    Is it in some countries a subtle method for guaranteeing the populace's docility on behalf of powerful elites?
    In some places at some times.
    Or is Batchelor wrong? Is there a risk that Buddhism could be misused this way?.... "Accept what is", "it's due to your past life karma", criticizing is "wrong speech", misinterpretations abound that could be misused.....
    Good examples D! Does Batchelor cite current examples? I can think of one but it's probably a dead horse around here.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Author says, "The power of organized religion to provide sovereign states with a bulwark of moral legitimacy while simultaneously assuaging the desperate piety of the disempowered swiftly reasserted itself--usually by subsuming the rebellious ideas into the canons of a revised orthodoxy. "(pg. 16)

    Has Buddhism become a tool of state power structures to convince the disempowered to accept their lot, rather than to agitate for change and an end to suffering? Does, or has Buddhism historically, functioned to maintain the status quo? Is it in some countries a subtle method for guaranteeing the populace's docility on behalf of powerful elites? Or is Batchelor wrong? Is there a risk that Buddhism could be misused this way?

    ("Accept what is", "it's due to your past life karma", criticizing is "wrong speech", misinterpretations abound that could be misused.)
    I think there are some elements of this in Thailand, where essentially Buddhism is a state religion, though technically the Constitution says that the King protects all religions.

    Unlike here in the States where a politician may invoke the name of God occasionally (such in "God Bless The United States Of America", and the phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance, in Thailand Buddhist rituals are a regular part of government functions, the most important one being the several times a year when the King changes the seasonal robes of the Emerald Buddha. Monks are present at many, if not most, formal government functions, and while the Sangha controls the monks, the government -- to a large degree -- controls the Sangha. Having said all that, the populace seems to approve, or at least accept it...unless you are, for example, the 5% of the population that is Muslim.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran



    I think there are some elements of this in Thailand, where essentially Buddhism is a state religion, though technically the Constitution says that the King protects all religions.

    while the Sangha controls the monks, the government -- to a large degree -- controls the Sangha. Having said all that, the populace seems to approve, or at least accept it...unless you are, for example, the 5% of the population that is Muslim.
    I know nothing of politics and socio-economic disparities and issues in Thailand, Vin, but do monks ever make any efforts or gestures to influence gov't policy or practices with regards to the poor? Or is theirs a more narrow role, praying on behalf of the poor, sick, and other suffering beings, performing blessings, operating temples? And if the answer to the latter question is "yes", is that by their own choice, or does the gov't have a hand in steering them toward limiting themselves to that role?

    This ties in to discussions the forum has had before re: is Buddhism activist, does heartfelt compassion compel us to do what we can to improve others' quality of life, or to work toward a more just world? Or is Buddhism more about meditation, practicing the teachings, attaining our own enlightenment, and, if we're a monk, performing the occasional blessing or prayer on behalf of others?

    When Stephen Batchelor talks about the "desperate piety of the disempowered", it sounds to me like he may be suggesting that Buddhism should be in part about empowering the disempowered. But maybe that's just me :-/

    (P.S. Vinlyn--this is a bookclub topic, but you're welcome to contribute your experience.)

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    I know nothing of politics and socio-economic disparities and issues in Thailand, Vin, but do monks ever make any efforts or gestures to influence gov't policy or practices with regards to the poor? Or is theirs a more narrow role, praying on behalf of the poor, sick, and other suffering beings, performing blessings, operating temples? And if the answer to the latter question is "yes", is that by their own choice, or does the gov't have a hand in steering them toward limiting themselves to that role?

    This ties in to discussions the forum has had before re: is Buddhism activist, does heartfelt compassion compel us to do what we can to improve others' quality of life, or to work toward a more just world? Or is Buddhism more about meditation, practicing the teachings, attaining our own enlightenment, and, if we're a monk, performing the occasional blessing or prayer on behalf of others?

    When Stephen Batchelor talks about the "desperate piety of the disempowered", it sounds to me like he may be suggesting that Buddhism should be in part about empowering the disempowered. But maybe that's just me :-/

    (P.S. Vinlyn--this is a bookclub topic, but you're welcome to contribute your experience.)

    Your first paragraph is a little difficult to answer. On the one hand, I would say that the government uses monks to their own ends. For example, with many governmental or political events that the government plans, there is a presence of monks. And that is not true just for this particular government, I have seen it in all my visits and my time living there since I first went there in the mid-1980s. Sort of a fact of life.

    On the other hand, there was a bit of dismay when some monks appeared to be actively participating in the Red Shirt demonstrations just a year ago today.

    I'd have a difficult time characterizing the daily life of a monk in Thailand. Despite a somewhat steady stream of lay people into many Buddhist temples, you don't often see the monks ministering to those people, except during somewhat formal ceremonies. There are many temples -- for example Wat Hualamphong -- that are virtual funeral factories. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that; in fact it may be one of the places where monks most often minister to the lay public. When you walk into many temples, the most likely activity you'll monks involved in is...sleeping in the wiharn or bot. I remember once my Thai friend excusing some sleeping monks saying they were meditating. I said, "You don't snore when you meditate." There's a lot of inactivity of monks in Thai temples. I personally didn't OFTEN see monks being very active in improving the lives of the people, like me might see by ministers here in this country.

    I think that there is a dangerous line to cross, with a difference between ministering to the people and involving people in becoming empowered.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    On the other hand, there was a bit of dismay when some monks appeared to be actively participating in the Red Shirt demonstrations just a year ago today.

    I personally didn't OFTEN see monks being very active in improving the lives of the people, like me might see by ministers here in this country.

    I think that there is a dangerous line to cross, with a difference between ministering to the people and involving people in becoming empowered.
    "A dangerous line to cross"? Dangerous for whom? The monks? Because of gov't disapproval? Would the gov't consider activism dangerous? This may be an ignorant question (like I said, I don't know Thailand), but it would say a lot to address this question of using Buddhism to maintain the status quo if activist monks would be dangerous monks.

    You're right that the situation is similar in Western religions. the most ministers/churches do is set up soup kitchens on weekends. But Catholic universities at home and abroad make education available for free to the poor, to marginalized ethnicities, and others in need, that's something. And there's Catholic Liberation Theology, which has actually achieved a significant amount to contribute to social change in some parts of Latin America. The thing I've noticed talking to the Liberation theology priests, though, is that their activism never applies to the church, to bringing about needed change in the church. But at least they do support the "disempowered" masses in levereging an end to suffering.

    We in the West are free to cast Buddhism as potentially activist because we have freedom of speech, etc. And we haven't been raised in a society of "religious Buddhism" as Batchelor calls it.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    "A dangerous line to cross"? Dangerous for whom? The monks? Because of gov't disapproval? Would the gov't consider activism dangerous? This may be an ignorant question (like I said, I don't know Thailand), but it would say a lot to address this question of using Buddhism to maintain the status quo if activist monks would be dangerous monks.

    I probably won't explain this very well, but I'll try.

    First, I look at the increasing involvement of the clergy in politics in the United States, and while I questioned it from the beginning, in retrospect I believe even more strongly that it's inappropriate. As early as the late 1960s, I was appalled when my parish priest condemned Nelson Rockefeller from the pulpit because of the Rockefeller's administration support of modern abortion policies in NYS. I walked out that day because I believe in the separation of church and state, and just as I don't feel that government should involve itself in religion, I don't think religion should involve itself in politics. In more recent years, the hyper-involvement of evangelism in politics and government here in the States has led to, in my view, far more division of the populace than almost any other force could have.

    Then, looking at Thailand, the country is not a pluralistic society to begin with. The history of modern Thailand is a Buddhist history (however, I'm not saying it's a very pure form of Buddhism). There are other religions in the country, but about 95% of the people profess to be Buddhists. A year ago today the riots...no, saying riots is to minimalize what occurred. The anarchy (and having been there at the time and seeing 31 major building burned to the ground and realizing that NO ONE WAS IN CHARGE -- not the government, not the army, not the police -- I worry about the stability of Thai culture and society. The violence one year ago was the worst in Thai history since 1767. Despite getting used to the relatively bloodless coups of recent history, the Thais I knew were stunned in disbelief that this sort of collapse of Thai mores could occur. And so, I am always cautious as to whether or not crossing particular societal lines could lead to the unraveling of society. Sort of like a string you pull from both ends. Up to a point the string becomes taut, perhaps even stretching at some point. But at what point does the string snap?

    The Thai flag has three colors, representing the nation, Buddhism, and the monarchy. The monarchy is already in a state of crisis. The political situation is in a state of crisis. Do we want activist monks making Buddhism come to a state of crisis.

    I personally would like to see monks more active in ministering to the poor, working in schools, setting up food services, etc. But I think they should stay out of politics and government. Because, only if they stay out of politics can they remain a refuge as stated in the Triple Gem. When you go to a monk for refuge, you shouldn't have to ask, "Are you a red shirt or a yellow shirt or _____."

  • This ties in to discussions the forum has had before re: is Buddhism activist, does heartfelt compassion compel us to do what we can to improve others' quality of life, or to work toward a more just world? Or is Buddhism more about meditation, practicing the teachings, attaining our own enlightenment, and, if we're a monk, performing the occasional blessing or prayer on behalf of others?
    I don't like seeing this issue framed in either/or categories ("People who say you're either part of the problem or part of the solution are part of the problem [Robert Anton Wilson].). Buddhist meditation is Buddhist activism!

  • Then, looking at Thailand, the country is not a pluralistic society to begin with....
    Aren't all societies ultimately pluralistic?
    ...Do we want activist monks making Buddhism come to a state of crisis.
    We who? I'm an American. I want "Buddhist activism" HERE. Outside that's none of my business.

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    We distorted Buddhism, but not for the purpose of perpetuating suffering; that's only the result. We distorted it for the purpose of being happy, for having answered those unanswerable questions that the Buddha advised us would not lead to disenchantment and unbinding. Rather than face our discomfort head-on in the ways the Buddha exhorted his disciples, we've turned the doctrine & discipline of the Buddha into a religion... several religions, in fact.

    Now we have to wade through a lot more to get to the heart of the problem, but it's still do-able. :)
  • We distorted Buddhism...for the purpose of being happy
    Buddha's teachings are based on the assumption that we all want to be happy & that part of achieving true happiness involves
    fac[ing] our discomfort head-on...
    Now we have to wade through a lot more to get to the heart of the problem
    No. Now we have to wade through a lot LESS because of what HE did!

    And are you suggesting religion is inherently corrupt?
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    What I meant is that it was easier in the Buddha's time... more difficult now, after 2500 years of changes and additions. More "baggage", both cultural and traditional, that serves to make it more difficult to get at the "meat" of the alleviation of suffering. Not to mention if someone wants to know what the Buddha taught, no one can give them a straight answer... all they can do is point to a myriad of traditions, which differ strenuously on different points and do not seem to all be the work of one person.

    We certainly have a better time of it than if the Buddha hadn't taught; I didn't mean it that way. :)
  • edited May 2011
    What I meant is that it was easier in the Buddha's time... more difficult now, after 2500 years of changes and additions. More "baggage", both cultural and traditional, that serves to make it more difficult to get at the "meat" of the alleviation of suffering. Not to mention if someone wants to know what the Buddha taught, no one can give them a straight answer... all they can do is point to a myriad of traditions, which differ strenuously on different points and do not seem to all be the work of one person.

    We certainly have a better time of it than if the Buddha hadn't taught; I didn't mean it that way. :)
    For me this is where conviction or faith (one of the Five Faculties) comes in. Not pure faith. Not blind faith. But faith that proceeds experimentally, confirming or dis-confirming along the way.

    Does Batchelor address conviction/faith? I don't recall.

  • I strongly suspect that Buddhism under theocracy was used to keep the population docile. I don't know about non-theocratic Buddhist societies, but there was definitely anti-war activism among Vietnamese monks. And doesn't Thich Nhat Hanh advocate activist Buddhism on behalf of the poor? Is anyone here a TNH buff? I thought that was one of his unique features, not sure.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    For me this is where conviction or faith (one of the Five Faculties) comes in. Not pure faith. Not blind faith. But faith that proceeds experimentally, confirming or dis-confirming along the way.

    Does Batchelor address conviction/faith? I don't recall.
    He's anti-faith, in terms of the blind faith you mention. He's very much in favor of always testing the teachings, as you say.

    Bucky, there are a lot of people around the world who wouldn't agree with you that meditation is Buddhist activism. I think I know what you mean--we need insight to improve our skillful means. But some people look at monasteries full of sitting monks, surrounded by human suffering outside the monastery walls, and see them as more of a burden than a help to society. On the other hand, I'm not aware that the Buddha taught activism. He set an example as a teacher teaching the dharma as a form of activism--teaching as activism.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    "The power of organized religion to provide sovereign states with a bulwark of moral legitimacy while simultaneously assuaging the desperate piety of the disempowered swiftly reasserted itself--usually by subsuming the rebellious ideas into the canons of a revised orthodoxy. "

    Can someone boil that down to someone who does not have batchelor's vocabulary?
  • doesn't Thich Nhat Hanh advocate activist Buddhism on behalf of the poor?
    pretty much, but any injustice, not just the poor...
    Is anyone here a TNH buff?
    I've studied him a lot, but I'm not "a buff."
    I thought that was one of his unique features, not sure.
    that's what Being Peace (book) is about.

  • Bucky, there are a lot of people around the world who wouldn't agree with you that meditation is Buddhist activism. I think I know what you mean--we need insight to improve our skillful means. But some people look at monasteries full of sitting monks, surrounded by human suffering outside the monastery walls, and see them as more of a burden than a help to society. On the other hand, I'm not aware that the Buddha taught activism. He set an example as a teacher teaching the dharma as a form of activism--teaching as activism.
    I didn't mean anything beyond Gandhi's "be the change," and the fact that the world would be a much better place if we could all find the causes of true happiness within.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited May 2011
    I didn't mean anything beyond Gandhi's "be the change," and the fact that the world would be a much better place if we could all find the causes of true happiness within.
    :thumbsup:

    @Jeffrey Religion provides the state structure with legitimacy, the most clear example being TB and HHDL as god-king. I recently read a newspaper column giving the House of Saud and Wahabbi Islam as an example, too. The State sponsors religion, and religion does the state the favor of inculcating in the people the belief that prayer will solve their problems, and so channels energy that might otherwise be used to organize protests, into politically (for the rulers) acceptable behavior. I don't have an example for "subsuming rebellious ideas into a revised orthodoxy", but if you read just up above the paragraph you quoted (in the book), you'll see S.B. is talking about some of the historical changes and reconfigurations of the sects in Tibet, as I recall.

    So this overall view of the partnership of State and religion, the I'll-scratch-your-back-if-you-scratch-mine bargain that S.B. (and some political analysts over the years, as well) says happens when a practice becomes a religion, can be debated. Is it accurate? Is it cynical? Is it something SB came up with to bolster his argument in favor of agnosticism/secular Buddhism?
  • Church
    So this overall view of the partnership of State and religion, the I'll-scratch-your-back-if-you-scratch-mine bargain that S.B. (and some political analysts over the years, as well) says happens when a practice becomes a religion, can be debated. Is it accurate? Is it cynical? Is it something SB came up with to bolster his argument in favor of agnosticism/secular Buddhism?
    It's basically accurate, maybe cynical for rhetorical purposes, but not beyond that. Church/State relations/conflicts are a very old issue. There's too many historical examples for me to think SB made it up, but it does go to his argument.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I think its hyperbole to say 'god-king'.. but he is kinda like george washington or thomas jefferson.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    The "god-king" term refers to his (formerly) being spiritual and temporal ruler of Tibet. That's how the media used to refer to him, anyway.
  • edited May 2011
    I forgot. Church/state separation is a Secularism basic (just Wiki Secularism), so SB definitely didn't make it up.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited May 2011
    No, I don't think he made it up. But he seems to imply that secular Buddhism would be an antidote to Church/State abuses. Or they never would have happened if Buddhism had remained secular. Could secular Buddhism end up being a tool of the State as well? Or would its very nature preclude that?
  • Could secular Buddhism end up being a tool of the State as well? Or would its very nature preclude that?
    It's been and is a tool of some states. It's not immune to corruption. My state? I doubt it. The US? Unlikely.
    Cheers Dakini!

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    It's been and is a tool of some states. It's not immune to corruption. My state? I doubt it. The US? Unlikely.
    Cheers Dakini!
    Thx, Bucky. I was refering to S.B.'s argument that "religious Buddhism" is the problem. He implies pretty strongly that when Buddhism becomes religious, it becomes prone to manipulation by government. So the opposite implication is that secular Buddhism isn't prone to that. Is it really that simple?
  • It's not that simple: meaning "religious" and "secular" B-ism is corruptible...to say the secular variety is more corruptible is a grave oversimplification (and as a premise of his greater argument weakens it's coherence)...plus the distinction's just a convention, and therefore is useful for some purposes and not others...for a beginning book on Buddhism about NOT believing, i'm not sure it works to well
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    There's a 3 part South Park episode where Cartman gets frozen and wakes up 500 years in the future (a la Buck Rogers). In the future, thanks to Richard Dawkins, science has taken the place of religion. There are 3 warring factions and instead of praising God as to be on their side they praise science ("thanks be to science") as they go around blowing each others heads off.

    The point being that our minds can attach to anything so I don't think a secular Buddhism is immune to corruption. If you define religious as unthinking, blind faith then I suppose that would be more prone to corruption than the "cool, calculated" approach of secularism.

  • i liked that episode
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