Reincarnation/Rebirth Across Religions

Dakini

Ajahn Brahm said in a recent video posted on the forum, that reincarnation was part of the belief system of the early Jews and Christians. Federica tells us that reincarnation was part of Christian tradition until the early part of 1000 AD. Can anyone here contribute more information about these traditions and why they are no longer part of Judaism and Christianity? Does or did Islam include belief in rebirth?

Is there a difference today in belief between the mystical branches of these religions (Gnosticism, the Kaballah, Sufism) and the more "mainstream" sects with regard to rebirth?

federica

The Nicene council had to eradicate the policy of reincarnation, for human beings, because otherwise there would have been no point to hell and eternal damnation.
If God is omnipotent, then God had to have ultimate control on your fate. Reincarnation took that control away from God - and as it followed, the Church, in affiliation with the State.
Remember that for thousands of years, Church and state were inseparable. They were both extremely powerful and had to exert that power through fear.
In order to extend an omnipotent control over the subjects, they had to have this options closed to them.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen1.html

Ric

I dont think there is strong evidence that reincarnation was a Christian doctrine until 1000 CE. I read part of the link above and although I didnt go through all of it I have to say the parts I did seemed very unconvincing.

Just the part about Lincoln and JFK being the same person was enough to raise an eyebrow. Statements like "The lives of President Kennedy and President Lincoln had so many parallels that it cannot be dismissed as pure coincidence" speaks volume to me as of lazy scholarship and using the "gut" as evidence.

Many of the biblical quotes he uses also dont seem to mean what he interprets them to mean (typical bible stuff).

vinlyn

When I go to the parent site, it seems very...well...not mainstream.

Ric

Yea I just did a bit more research. The books mentioned on the right side all can be tracked back to a Theosophy book publishing company. They are definitely not objective scholarly work and no citations at all. Its just made up stuff and conjectures to fit an agenda.

After watching "What the Bleep do we know" I always make sure to check who the author and publishers are because there is a HUGE trend of works that are made to look impartial but have an obvious agenda behind it all. I dont know much about Theosophy but oddly enough its not the first time ive tracked something back to their publishing.

Interstingly enough, I watched numerous lectures on Buddhism and from what I remember the founders of Theosophy were the first ones to bring Buddhism to the West. Especially Colonel Henry Steel Olcott, from wiki "Olcott was the first well-known person of European ancestry to make a formal conversion to Buddhism"

vinlyn

Thanks, Ric!

genkaku

"Olcott was the first well-known person of European ancestry to make a formal conversion to Buddhism"
_____________________________

I wonder what he converted from ... or are we supposed to imagine that Buddhism is just some body of belief and ritual to be distinguished from other bodies of belief and ritual that are generally called "religion?" Sorry, I just have a hard time understanding what making a "conversion to Buddhism" might imply.

Floating_Abu

@genkaku, maybe if you come from a religion that believes in conversion, they might call it 'conversion' when people switch religions (since that's the mindset). :coffee:

DhammaDhatu

we take what AB says to be gospel truth. but if we do some research, particularly about one renowned Christian he mentioned, we will find academic opinion is not what AB asserted

StaticToybox

The Gnostics (an early sect of Christianity) certainly believed in reincarnation, but they didn't much survive past around the first two or three centuries after Christ.

DhammaDhatu

there are plenty of Gnostic gospels available to us. is there any evidence in these of reincarnation belief? i personally cannot recall any when i read them years ago

groups in societies have always believed in reincarnation, such as in Greece

John 3

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

StaticToybox

there are plenty of Gnostic gospels available to us. is there any evidence in these of reincarnation belief? i personally cannot recall any when i read them years ago

I am unaware if the belief is expressly mentioned in any of the Gnostic gospels, to be honest I have not read that many of them. But I've read a fair amount about the Gnostics and what I've read indicates that they (well, at least some of them) believed in it.

DhammaDhatu

Ajahn Brahm said in a recent video posted on the forum...

Ajahn Brahm said in a recent video posted on the forum that Origen believed in reincarnation.

This allegation was also repeated by Shirley MacLaine in her book Out On a Limb.

The Wikipedia does not support Ajahn Brahm.

:mullet:

Origen (Greek: Ὠριγένης Ōrigénēs, or Origen Adamantius, c. 185–254) was an early Christian African scholar and theologian, and one of the most distinguished writers of the early Church despite not being considered a Church father by most Christians who recognize this distinction. Origen was also largely responsible for the coalescence of Christian writings which became the New Testament.

The book Reincarnation in Christianity, by the theosophist Geddes MacGregor (1978) asserted that Origen believed in reincarnation. MacGregor is convinced that Origen believed in and taught about reincarnation but that his texts written about the subject have been destroyed. He admits that there is no extant proof for that position. The allegation was also repeated by Shirley MacLaine in her book Out On a Limb.

There is, however, no evidence that Origen believed in reincarnation. He wrote about the Greeks' transmigration of the soul, with which he did not agree.[35] This can be confirmed from the extant writings of Origen. He was cognizant of the concept of transmigration (metensomatosis transformation, and loses what it once was, the human soul will not be what it was) from Greek philosophy, but it is repeatedly stated that this concept is not a part of the Christian teaching or scripture. In his Comment on the Gospel of Matthew, which stems from a 6th century Latin translation, it is written: "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (ibid., 13:1:46–53 [37]).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

DhammaDhatu

Jews and Christians.

There is no evidence of this.

Christianity is the doctrine one is saved through accepting the love & forgiveness of Christ. From this, one goes to 'heaven', that is, joy. It is salvation via love. It is what the Buddha callled the "immeasurable liberation of mind" via loving-kindness. Jesus said: "I came so your joy can be complete".

Reincarnation is as foreign to the essence or core of Christianity as it is as foreign to the essence or core of Buddhism.

Human beings often long (crave) for continuity so they cling tightly to reincarnation.

Ric

hehe DD I came to the same conclusion as you. It seems it all comes down to this Origen fellow and there is no evidence he believed in reincarnation.

Vajraheart

I dont think there is strong evidence that reincarnation was a Christian doctrine until 1000 CE. I read part of the link above and although I didnt go through all of it I have to say the parts I did seemed very unconvincing.

Just the part about Lincoln and JFK being the same person was enough to raise an eyebrow. Statements like "The lives of President Kennedy and President Lincoln had so many parallels that it cannot be dismissed as pure coincidence" speaks volume to me as of lazy scholarship and using the "gut" as evidence.

Many of the biblical quotes he uses also dont seem to mean what he interprets them to mean (typical bible stuff).

Actually Reincarnation was part of the views of early Greek mystics long before the advent of Christianity. Also, the earliest Christian philosopher, http://www.iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/ believed in reincarnation.

Vajraheart

Ajahn Brahm said in a recent video posted on the forum...

Ajahn Brahm said in a recent video posted on the forum that Origen believed in reincarnation.

This allegation was also repeated by Shirley MacLaine in her book Out On a Limb.

The Wikipedia does not support Ajahn Brahm.

:mullet:





DD,

I've read what is known of Origens' works and he most definitely believed in transmigration. I read his texts many years ago.

DhammaDhatu

I've read what is known of Origens' works and he most definitely believed in transmigration. I read his texts many years ago.

So what of one single person such as Origen believed in transmigration? This does not result in it being a "Christian" belief

The following link shows Origen states reincarnation or "the dogma of transmigration...is foreign to the church of God...and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures; for it is also in opposition to the saying that “things seen are temporal,” and that “this age shall have a consummation,” and also to the fulfilment of the saying, “Heaven and earth shall pass away,” and “the fashion of this world passeth away,” and “the heavens shall perish,”

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_IX/Origen_on_Matthew/Origen's_Commentary_on_Matthew/Book_XIII/Chapter_1

Vajraheart

I've read what is known of Origens' works and he most definitely believed in transmigration. I read his texts many years ago.

So what of one single person such as Origen believed in transmigration? This does not result in it being a "Christian" belief

The following link shows Origen states reincarnation or "the dogma of transmigration...is foreign to the church of God...and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures; for it is also in opposition to the saying that “things seen are temporal,” and that “this age shall have a consummation,” and also to the fulfilment of the saying, “Heaven and earth shall pass away,” and “the fashion of this world passeth away,” and “the heavens shall perish,”

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_IX/Origen_on_Matthew/Origen's_Commentary_on_Matthew/Book_XIII/Chapter_1

Well, if you read the whole thing, it seems he's having an internal dialectic. I never said it was a mainstream Christian belief either. I'm just saying there were Christians who believed in it, and it was a concept that pre-dated Christianity itself somewhat prevalent in the region of the Greeks.

"From this it follows that there cannot be prophecies about all things whatsoever, since all things are infinite." http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_IX/Origen_on_Matthew/Origen's_Commentary_on_Matthew/Book_XIII/Chapter_1

DhammaDhatu

This link, in its entirety, accords with my views:

http://www.spiritual-wholeness.org/faqs/reincgen.htm

Vajraheart

I know that's your view on reincarnation. As far as Origen goes... maybe I just read commentaries on his works. It was close to 20 years ago. Maybe he really didn't believe and was trying to show how it doesn't coincide at all with Christian dogma?

DhammaDhatu

Plenty on the internet about the Origen debate:

http://www.riemerroukema.nl/Publicaties_Artikelen_files/Transmigration.pdf

Vajraheart

Yes, interesting DD. Indeed, it does seem to justify a possible refutation of the idea that Origen supported a doctrine of reincarnation. I myself find Hellenistic schools of thought and Neo-Platonist Metaphysics far more intriguing than common Christianity by far.

Dakini

I'd only like to point out that Federica learned her bible history in Catholic church school, so I would give her the benefit of the doubt. I don't think her beliefs on the history of reincarnation/transmigration (or the lack thereof) come from some (purportedly) dodgy internet sites.

Since we don't seem to have any Jew-Bu's here on the forum, I'm going to ask a J-B friend of mine about possible belief in reincarnation among the early Jews, and I'll get back to you-all.

Carry on.

aura

The concept of the immortality of the individual human consciousness/soul/spirit and its rebirth in human form was a doctrine of Judaism at the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as it remains to this day in some orthodox Jewish sects. However, empires cannot and do not tolerate such doctrines.

All empires are built upon the ideology of one group of people pretty much mercilessly controlling and exploiting another while self-righteously believing themselves to be completely justified in doing so.
The concept that one's abused slave in one life might well become one's abusive master in the next completely undermines the self-righteous justification of the slavery and exploitation of others upon which empire is based. It is therefore completely contrary to the economic aspirations and political will of any empire to embrace the concept of reincarnation/rebirth. It is observable throughout history all over the globe and in all religions that empires cannot and do not embrace the concept of reincarnation/rebirth because it undermines the basis and justification of empire.

The Roman Emperor Constantine skillfully annihilated his wife, son, and brothers-in-law, consolidated his military and political power, and prevented the success of slave revolution by establishing Jesus of Nazareth (whose followers were primarily slaves of the Roman Empire) as the new and premier Roman god above all other Roman gods. Constantine established and presided over the Nicene convention which mandated/established Jesus of Nazareth's history and lineage as meeting the Roman legal lineage requirements for Roman godship status. The Nicene convention also eliminated/banished any Judeo/Christian patriarchs and tenets that refused to conform with Roman law and/or the establishment of Jesus of Nazareth as a Roman god. The Roman Universal Church ("catholic" is Latin for "universal")was thus established as the new, unifying, standardized state religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine, justifying Roman Imperial rule and enforcing it with Roman armies heralded as the new manifestation and will of divinity on earth. Constantine established the precedent that it is much safer to establish a religion that declares oneself "ordained to rule by the divine" (threatening any insubordination with divine retribution) than it is to declare oneself a Roman god, inadvertently inviting everyone on the block with a sword to take a shot at proving one mistaken.

Wherever people live close to nature and listen to their children, one finds that children speaking of having lived another life before their birth is generally accepted as a natural phenomenon explained and accepted by the indigenous religious traditions. Where people live in an empire, any such observations are far too threatening to the basis of the empire to be tolerated.

Vajraheart

Nice observation!

aura

Thanks!
When I was a young child, I spoke to my parents (and anyone else who would listen) of my memories of the experience of having been an old woman who died in the bombed rubble of WWII. As a result, I was strictly silenced and strictly punished as a child. We lived under long-standing political and religious empires, both with long-standing intentions of world domination ("conversion" of others).

In the present day I look around and see small glimmers of hope that young children are not being quite so automatically and strictly silenced and punished as I had been as a child, and that phenomena of children recalling former lives are being published in the popular press and in scientific research papers.

Do you think this phenomenon is perhaps a result of the political/economic chaos of long-standing political and religious empires in the present day? I wonder if perhaps the adults are not as effective at silencing and punishing their children in the present day as they once were, or if perhaps the adults are not quite so dogmatically, automatically, and violently sure of their ideologies as they once were.

Vajraheart

Thanks!

Do you think this phenomenon is perhaps a result of the political/economic chaos of long-standing political and religious empires in the present day? I wonder if perhaps the adults are not as effective at silencing and punishing their children in the present day as they once were, or if perhaps the adults are not quite so dogmatically, automatically, and violently sure of their ideologies as they once were.

No problem.

I do think so... It has plenty to do with the fact of being exposed to contrary conditions due to expanding formats for information dissemination. Basically, people are being forced to expand their minds and let go of outmoded as well as erroneous idealizations.

Dakini

The concept of the immortality of the individual human consciousness/soul/spirit and its rebirth in human form was a doctrine of Judaism at the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as it remains to this day in some orthodox Jewish sects. However, empires cannot and do not tolerate such doctrines.

Thanks for this, aura. Awesome analysis, too! :bowdown:
Why would belief in reincarnation be limited only to some Jewish sects, if I may ask?

P.S. I think adults are just as capable of and prone to silencing children today (think about all those fundamentalist Christians, Mormons, etc. etc., not to mention plain old close-minded conservatives), but there's a slow cultural shift going on, with more adults participating in Eastern religions, or keeping open minds on certain questions. I'm glad you were able to be true to yourself, in spite of pressure to be otherwise.

aura

All of Judaism supports the concept of the soul and the immortality of a soul, but when it comes to the issue of a soul being reborn on earth (reincarnation, transmigration of souls) that concept tends to undermine the empire....
and Herod the Great had an empire, with Judaism as the state religion.

Herod had a non-interference pact with Rome, built a whole lot of impressive construction projects (including the massive temple at Jerusalem),
imposed crushing taxes to support it all...
and people who protested got burnt.
He ended up burning a whole lot of the rabbinical teaching authority (the Sanhedrin) who just wouldn't fall in line with him...
("Herod's Guide To Creating Jewish Sects")
and the survivors fled to the desert, the most well known: Essenes.

Some believe that Jesus of Nazareth was descended from the Essene sect, but in any case a couple of generations later his followers eventually constituted yet another Jewish sect, with divisions between Judean and non-Judean followers dividing it further...until the destruction of Jerusalem and the further scattering and division of Judaism in its wake.
("Vespasian's Guide to Creating Even More Jewish Sects")

One sees similar historical sociopolitical divisions and developments in Buddhism. Empires simply cannot tolerate the concept that slaves could ever be reborn as masters and masters could ever be reborn as slaves. Empires carefully instruct their subjects that all rewards and punishments will be granted solely by the power and authority of the empire, and all merit will be defined solely by the authority figures of the empire.

Ric

You would think the empires would remove "the meek shall inherit the earth". To me it doesnt make sense that rebirth/reincarnation was scrapped because the slave would one day become the master. The mental gymnastics used by religion can easily overcome things like that.

and the belief on the immortality of the soul is not the same as reincarnation so I dont see a natural conclusion of that.

I have to say Buddhism seems very attached to this rebirth/reincarnation thing. Its almost like talking about the resurrection. Its the all mighty concept.

Floating_Abu

Attached? lol I doubt it

By the way, I always thought 'The meek shall inherit the Earth' to be equated to the Egoless or the Humble.

aura

No empire would ever remove "the meek shall inherit the earth" as it is the epitaph commonly and sarcastically reserved by the empire for those run over with tanks in the name of the empire.