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Reincarnation/Rebirth Across Religions
Dakini
Veteran
Ajahn Brahm said in a recent video posted on the forum, that reincarnation was part of the belief system of the early Jews and Christians. Federica tells us that reincarnation was part of Christian tradition until the early part of 1000 AD. Can anyone here contribute more information about these traditions and why they are no longer part of Judaism and Christianity? Does or did Islam include belief in rebirth?
Is there a difference today in belief between the mystical branches of these religions (Gnosticism, the Kaballah, Sufism) and the more "mainstream" sects with regard to rebirth?
Is there a difference today in belief between the mystical branches of these religions (Gnosticism, the Kaballah, Sufism) and the more "mainstream" sects with regard to rebirth?
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Comments
If God is omnipotent, then God had to have ultimate control on your fate. Reincarnation took that control away from God - and as it followed, the Church, in affiliation with the State.
Remember that for thousands of years, Church and state were inseparable. They were both extremely powerful and had to exert that power through fear.
In order to extend an omnipotent control over the subjects, they had to have this options closed to them.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen1.html
Just the part about Lincoln and JFK being the same person was enough to raise an eyebrow. Statements like "The lives of President Kennedy and President Lincoln had so many parallels that it cannot be dismissed as pure coincidence" speaks volume to me as of lazy scholarship and using the "gut" as evidence.
Many of the biblical quotes he uses also dont seem to mean what he interprets them to mean (typical bible stuff).
After watching "What the Bleep do we know" I always make sure to check who the author and publishers are because there is a HUGE trend of works that are made to look impartial but have an obvious agenda behind it all. I dont know much about Theosophy but oddly enough its not the first time ive tracked something back to their publishing.
Interstingly enough, I watched numerous lectures on Buddhism and from what I remember the founders of Theosophy were the first ones to bring Buddhism to the West. Especially Colonel Henry Steel Olcott, from wiki "Olcott was the first well-known person of European ancestry to make a formal conversion to Buddhism"
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I wonder what he converted from ... or are we supposed to imagine that Buddhism is just some body of belief and ritual to be distinguished from other bodies of belief and ritual that are generally called "religion?" Sorry, I just have a hard time understanding what making a "conversion to Buddhism" might imply.
groups in societies have always believed in reincarnation, such as in Greece
This allegation was also repeated by Shirley MacLaine in her book Out On a Limb.
The Wikipedia does not support Ajahn Brahm.
:mullet:
Christianity is the doctrine one is saved through accepting the love & forgiveness of Christ. From this, one goes to 'heaven', that is, joy. It is salvation via love. It is what the Buddha callled the "immeasurable liberation of mind" via loving-kindness. Jesus said: "I came so your joy can be complete".
Reincarnation is as foreign to the essence or core of Christianity as it is as foreign to the essence or core of Buddhism.
Human beings often long (crave) for continuity so they cling tightly to reincarnation.
This allegation was also repeated by Shirley MacLaine in her book Out On a Limb.
The Wikipedia does not support Ajahn Brahm.
:mullet:
DD,
I've read what is known of Origens' works and he most definitely believed in transmigration. I read his texts many years ago.
The following link shows Origen states reincarnation or "the dogma of transmigration...is foreign to the church of God...and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures; for it is also in opposition to the saying that “things seen are temporal,” and that “this age shall have a consummation,” and also to the fulfilment of the saying, “Heaven and earth shall pass away,” and “the fashion of this world passeth away,” and “the heavens shall perish,”
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_IX/Origen_on_Matthew/Origen's_Commentary_on_Matthew/Book_XIII/Chapter_1
"From this it follows that there cannot be prophecies about all things whatsoever, since all things are infinite." http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_IX/Origen_on_Matthew/Origen's_Commentary_on_Matthew/Book_XIII/Chapter_1
http://www.spiritual-wholeness.org/faqs/reincgen.htm
http://www.riemerroukema.nl/Publicaties_Artikelen_files/Transmigration.pdf
Since we don't seem to have any Jew-Bu's here on the forum, I'm going to ask a J-B friend of mine about possible belief in reincarnation among the early Jews, and I'll get back to you-all.
Carry on.
All empires are built upon the ideology of one group of people pretty much mercilessly controlling and exploiting another while self-righteously believing themselves to be completely justified in doing so.
The concept that one's abused slave in one life might well become one's abusive master in the next completely undermines the self-righteous justification of the slavery and exploitation of others upon which empire is based. It is therefore completely contrary to the economic aspirations and political will of any empire to embrace the concept of reincarnation/rebirth. It is observable throughout history all over the globe and in all religions that empires cannot and do not embrace the concept of reincarnation/rebirth because it undermines the basis and justification of empire.
The Roman Emperor Constantine skillfully annihilated his wife, son, and brothers-in-law, consolidated his military and political power, and prevented the success of slave revolution by establishing Jesus of Nazareth (whose followers were primarily slaves of the Roman Empire) as the new and premier Roman god above all other Roman gods. Constantine established and presided over the Nicene convention which mandated/established Jesus of Nazareth's history and lineage as meeting the Roman legal lineage requirements for Roman godship status. The Nicene convention also eliminated/banished any Judeo/Christian patriarchs and tenets that refused to conform with Roman law and/or the establishment of Jesus of Nazareth as a Roman god. The Roman Universal Church ("catholic" is Latin for "universal")was thus established as the new, unifying, standardized state religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine, justifying Roman Imperial rule and enforcing it with Roman armies heralded as the new manifestation and will of divinity on earth. Constantine established the precedent that it is much safer to establish a religion that declares oneself "ordained to rule by the divine" (threatening any insubordination with divine retribution) than it is to declare oneself a Roman god, inadvertently inviting everyone on the block with a sword to take a shot at proving one mistaken.
Wherever people live close to nature and listen to their children, one finds that children speaking of having lived another life before their birth is generally accepted as a natural phenomenon explained and accepted by the indigenous religious traditions. Where people live in an empire, any such observations are far too threatening to the basis of the empire to be tolerated.
When I was a young child, I spoke to my parents (and anyone else who would listen) of my memories of the experience of having been an old woman who died in the bombed rubble of WWII. As a result, I was strictly silenced and strictly punished as a child. We lived under long-standing political and religious empires, both with long-standing intentions of world domination ("conversion" of others).
In the present day I look around and see small glimmers of hope that young children are not being quite so automatically and strictly silenced and punished as I had been as a child, and that phenomena of children recalling former lives are being published in the popular press and in scientific research papers.
Do you think this phenomenon is perhaps a result of the political/economic chaos of long-standing political and religious empires in the present day? I wonder if perhaps the adults are not as effective at silencing and punishing their children in the present day as they once were, or if perhaps the adults are not quite so dogmatically, automatically, and violently sure of their ideologies as they once were.
I do think so... It has plenty to do with the fact of being exposed to contrary conditions due to expanding formats for information dissemination. Basically, people are being forced to expand their minds and let go of outmoded as well as erroneous idealizations.
Why would belief in reincarnation be limited only to some Jewish sects, if I may ask?
P.S. I think adults are just as capable of and prone to silencing children today (think about all those fundamentalist Christians, Mormons, etc. etc., not to mention plain old close-minded conservatives), but there's a slow cultural shift going on, with more adults participating in Eastern religions, or keeping open minds on certain questions. I'm glad you were able to be true to yourself, in spite of pressure to be otherwise.
and Herod the Great had an empire, with Judaism as the state religion.
Herod had a non-interference pact with Rome, built a whole lot of impressive construction projects (including the massive temple at Jerusalem),
imposed crushing taxes to support it all...
and people who protested got burnt.
He ended up burning a whole lot of the rabbinical teaching authority (the Sanhedrin) who just wouldn't fall in line with him...
("Herod's Guide To Creating Jewish Sects")
and the survivors fled to the desert, the most well known: Essenes.
Some believe that Jesus of Nazareth was descended from the Essene sect, but in any case a couple of generations later his followers eventually constituted yet another Jewish sect, with divisions between Judean and non-Judean followers dividing it further...until the destruction of Jerusalem and the further scattering and division of Judaism in its wake.
("Vespasian's Guide to Creating Even More Jewish Sects")
One sees similar historical sociopolitical divisions and developments in Buddhism. Empires simply cannot tolerate the concept that slaves could ever be reborn as masters and masters could ever be reborn as slaves. Empires carefully instruct their subjects that all rewards and punishments will be granted solely by the power and authority of the empire, and all merit will be defined solely by the authority figures of the empire.
and the belief on the immortality of the soul is not the same as reincarnation so I dont see a natural conclusion of that.
I have to say Buddhism seems very attached to this rebirth/reincarnation thing. Its almost like talking about the resurrection. Its the all mighty concept.
By the way, I always thought 'The meek shall inherit the Earth' to be equated to the Egoless or the Humble.