Mindful Meditation vs. "Thinking" Meditation

Ric

Hey Guys,

The way I meditate is pretty simple. Focus on the breath, sometimes on sensations or sounds but pretty much always observing. I guess in a word, mindful.

Now Ive read in a lot of places where they say meditate on this subject or ponder this question in meditation. Im curious what you guys think about this kind of meditation. Lets say I am having relationship trouble, can you meditate on it ? Does it work by sitting down and just thinking about it? I know that the idea can be the object of meditation but it seems like it just the same thing as taking some time to problem solve. It seems like the same thing can be achieved by getting a pen and paper and kinda working though the problem.

I do mindful meditation twice a day for 20 min. If I take one of those to do a "thinking" meditation do you guys think I am missing out in cultivating more awareness ?

metta

As with any practices that you do, I have lernt that it is wise to do one after the next. For example, mindful meditation, folllowed by "thinking" but it is more like...letting mindful meditation guide you into "thinking" rather than actively "thinking". Huh? Well it is more like using mindfulness to "oberver" or "watch" where your mind goes. Don't judge it, just watch it, and "obersver", but keep your mind coming back to the breath.

I hope this helps...

Metta

Tikal2012

If you are thinking about stuff during your meditation practice, and continuing to proliferate those thoughts by placing your attention on them, then you are no longer practicing meditation. Buddha says that if we want to cultivate an understanding of the four noble truths as they arise and pass away in our minds we need to let go of thinking, relax, and return to the object of meditation. This then becomes the letting go of craving, and in turn the cessation of suffering. When you cultivate this mind, your awareness of reality becomes very gentle and easy going, and it is free from thinking. Things that used to really upset you can no longer effect your state of inner peace because you now know not to take them personally - there is no need to become upset. When you cultivate this mind succesfully you are then practicing your meditation correctly. Don't forget to relax that tension and tightness in your mind and body after you let go of the thoughts and then return to the breath.

santhisouk

From what I learned, you're not really suppose to think about problems and such while meditating, but if you do, there is a way around this. They key is to focus on "one thing", or a "single preoccupation", and without grasping too hard, try not to let thoughts or other things distract you. If you do get distracted, then just be mindful of that distraction. Like walking a dog, when he tries to go a different direction, you have to pull the leash. Try this for as long as you can. Once you are done meditating, you go back to pondering about your problems as such. Depending on what you decide that that "one thing" is, or what that "single preoccupation" is, this might actually help you come up with the answer. The key is to choose something unrelated to your problem.

metta

buddhajunkie

Can you clarify what exactly the practice was? Does it have a name, or do you have some links?

My short answer is that you probably think too much already. I say, stick with the mindfulness practice. I would also recommend occasionally doing a 40-minute session.

Ric

No I dont have a specific name. Its just stuff Ive heard in other places. I remember someone posting a thread saying they were meditating on duality/nonduality.

I thought meditating on a subject was somewhat common but I might have been mistaken.

Also I am working up to get to 40 min, thats the goal but Im still new so getting past 20 is tough. I just went from 10min to 20min maybe 4 days ago.

buddhajunkie

Meditating "on something" is not necessarily thinking. It could simply be focusing attention on something in particular. For example, I might "meditate on feelings" in which case I pay special attention to whether a certain experience is pleasant, unpleasant or neither.

This is not thinking, but rather being mindful of a certain class of phenomena (feelings).

For this topic, look up the Four Foundations of Mindfulness (or the Four Frames of Reference).

DhammaDhatu

Observation meditation = anupassana = contemplation

Thinking meditation = yonisomanasikara = wise reflection; reasoned consideration

see link, for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html

Paṭisaṅkhā yoniso piṇḍapātaṃ paṭisevāmi,

Considering it thoughtfully, I use alms food,

Neva davāya na madāya na maṇḍanāya na vibhūsanāya,

Not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification,

Yāvadeva imassa kāyassa ṭhitiyā yāpanāya vihiṃsuparatiyā brahma-cariyānuggahāya,

But simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life,

Iti purāṇañca vedanaṃ paṭihaṅkhāmi navañca vedanaṃ na uppādessāmi,

(Thinking,) Thus will I destroy old feelings (of hunger) and not create new feelings (from overeating).

Yātrā ca me bhavissati anavajjatā ca phāsu-vihāro cāti.

I will maintain myself, be blameless & live in comfort.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammayut/chanting.html#food

Ric

Thanks guys.

What I got from the Buddha's teaching on the link is that good thinking that is not sensual or ill-willed should be used. So what I suppose is if I were to meditate on a problem, the meditation part would be to hold awareness of correct thinking and not be taken down the wrong path.

So lets say someone stole money from me and I am trying to figure out what to do, meditating on it would be thinking about it but in the right way (thats where the meditation part is, keeping awareness that I am not falling hostage to ill will and sensual thoughts).

@Buddhajunkie

I agree with what you said about meditating on a feeling is not thinking about it. That part I have it down. My question is more focused on something like, having 3 job offers and not knowing which one to take, and meditating on that. That would involve thinking.

person

Analytic meditation is when you take a particular topic for your meditation like compassion, impermanence, or emptiness for example. You start by calming your mind so theres some stability then you reflect on the topic. Lets use compassion as an example, you can think of someone you care about and how they may be suffering, a feeling of compassion arises in you, you then stay with that feeling and try to cultivate it. You can compare it to watering a plant, if you water the plant and then dump it out right away before it soaks in the water isn't going to do much good. When the feeling fades or you get distracted just analyze the topic again until the feeling returns and sit with it, eventually you'll be able to slip right into the non-conceptual meditation with hardly any thought.

As far as I can tell all our mental thoughts have some feeling base associated with them. Analytical meditation works on that level to modify our thinking. If you wanted I suppose you could use it to become an angry jealous person but you'll probably be happier if you meditate on the Dharma instead.

I don't think you're generally supposed to use it to sort out some problems, though on occasion I do. I don't get any peace of mind or any mental transformation but I can usually get some clarity on an issue.

Here's a couple links to some articles on analytical meditation:

http://www.meditationsociety.com/twotypes.html

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=470

metta

All of these are, for the most part, promoting awareness. However, I would suggest that you not focus on external elements as they will only lead you to more attachement

FoibleFull

I guess it depends on which school of Buddhism you follow.
Our local teacher is a Tibetan monk, and he teachers two types of meditation:
1. Mind stabilization meditation is taught to all newcomers. The meditation is a focus on a visualized object, and the goal is to learn to concentrate so thoroughly that there are no distractions, neither internal (including thoughts) nor external.
2. Analytic meditation, to be performed only by those who had mastered the art of mind stabilization. This is the type of meditation in which you use your mind to analyze questions relevant to Buddhism, such as "Where is 'I'?" But it is not to be undertaken by those whose mind-stabilization meditation is still interrupted by distractions.

buddhajunkie

@Buddhajunkie
My question is more focused on something like, having 3 job offers and not knowing which one to take, and meditating on that. That would involve thinking.

Before you jump into a thinking practice, keep in mind there is a huge role for non-thinking mindfulness meditation in making a decision. For example, it is important to be mindful of your feelings and your true motivations for supposedly preferring one job over another. Are you trying to impress someone? Do you really hate that line of work? Is greed pulling you to one job and not another?

All those questions can be answered without thinking. However, there is a role of perhaps during sitting meditation visualizing the job and recalling your desire to take a certain job, then being mindful of the thoughts and emotions that churn up.

In short, mindfulness meditation can help you make a decision by allowing you to become aware of all relevant things inside you. Then you can combine those insights with regular thinking at your desk, or where ever.

I would be reluctant to fully combine thinking with sitting meditation since that may produce "bad habits."

SpinyNorman2

I do mindful meditation twice a day for 20 min. If I take one of those to do a "thinking" meditation do you guys think I am missing out in cultivating more awareness ?

My advice would be to keep both sessions for formal meditation, and do the
thinking at other times.

Spiny

Floating_Abu

Hi Ric

Traditionally, meditation is not thinking. So as Spiny suggested perhaps keep the thinking for later. And when meditating, do the meditation. That way, things can flower on their one.

Best wishes,
Abu

metta

I did not mean to say that there was no value in "Thinking" meditation, for example - metta mediation.

DhammaDhatu

Analytic meditation is when you take a particular topic for your meditation like compassion, impermanence, or emptiness for example.

Whilst one can do analytic meditation on impermanence or emptiness, the essense of meditation on impermanence and emptiness is not analytic. It is direct seeing (vipassana).

Regards

person

Let me further elaborate. Analytical meditation is still essentially non-conceptual you just use the intellect to give direction to the meditation. As such its neccessary to first have some mental stability if not neccessarily full blown samadhi concentration. Though the more intense your level of concentration the more effective your meditation will be.

Nibbida

For a very accessible introduction to contemplative meditation in the Indo-Tibetan traditions, I recommend Andy Karr's book Contemplating Reality. It's the best introduction to emptiness I've read so far. Very understandable for this topic.

Ric

Thanks guy for all the input. I think ill just stick to focusing on the breath or sensations. Perhaps when I become more proficient in meditation Ill start to branch out.

I think in a way its also a psychological desire to make meditation a bit more "fun". My mind is so needy that it would be nice if it could contemplate on a subject but in reality it contemplates almost all day long so it would be useless to do this while meditating.

I even think the monkey mind is not a good enough metaphor. To me it is more like a 7 year old spoiled child who wants everything all the time and cries non stop until it gets it.

SpinyNorman2

Analytical meditation is still essentially non-conceptual you just use the intellect to give direction to the meditation.

I don't understand this. If the intellect is involved then aren't concepts also involved? Maybe an example would help?

Spiny

taiyaki

kind of like asking a question, "who am i" or "what am i". the function isn't to get an answer but to direct consciousness towards what is.

DhammaDhatu

Analytical meditation is used to overcome hindrances to meditation.

If our mind has an obstacle, analytical meditation is used to overcome it, so our mind can return to the observation meditation.

Daozen

All meditation is mindful of something (breath, candle or other object, mantra or music, subtle mental states) but never really thinking in the normal sense of cognition, it's more of an immersive awareness that you experience.

DhammaDhatu

Not so. In Buddhism there are at least forty meditation objects, such as meditation on loving kindness or meditation upon one's good actions/generosity, etc

Such meditations are not mere awareness. They are thinking or reflection.

Daozen

The number of potential objects is infinite.
As for thinking v awareness: I think we think about thinking differently.

person

Analytical meditation is still essentially non-conceptual you just use the intellect to give direction to the meditation.

I don't understand this. If the intellect is involved then aren't concepts also involved? Maybe an example would help?

Spiny

In my first post I tried to explain a little. To go back to the watering a plant analogy, using the intellect is like watering the plant, but once you've watered it you stop and let the water soak in. So in analytic meditation we use the intellect to give rise to an insight or positive emotion then we let the analysis go and cultivate the insight non-conceptually until it fades or we lose focus, when it does we just return to the analysis and so on...

Floating_Abu

Thanks guy for all the input. I think ill just stick to focusing on the breath or sensations. Perhaps when I become more proficient in meditation Ill start to branch out.

I think in a way its also a psychological desire to make meditation a bit more "fun". My mind is so needy that it would be nice if it could contemplate on a subject but in reality it contemplates almost all day long so it would be useless to do this while meditating.

I even think the monkey mind is not a good enough metaphor. To me it is more like a 7 year old spoiled child who wants everything all the time and cries non stop until it gets it.

Thankyou @Ric !

Meditation is like a single stick of wood. Insight (vipassanā) is one end of the stick and serenity (samatha) the other. If we pick it up, does only one end come up or do both? When anyone picks up a stick both ends rise together.

Venerable Ajahn Chah



_/\_

SpinyNorman2

If our mind has an obstacle, analytical meditation is used to overcome it, so our mind can return to the observation meditation.

I'm not sure. Would it not be better to do the analysis outside the meditation?

Spiny

SpinyNorman2

kind of like asking a question, "who am i" or "what am i".

I've tried this a few times but my mind kind of goes blank, and it's like I don't understand the question. Is it just me? ;-)

Spiny