Why can't we do nothing?

betaboy

Greetings,

It's been a while since I posted here.

Here's my doubt: why is it we can't just sit down and do nothing? The moment we try, we become restless and the mind starts doing something to avoid the stillness. Isn't this proof that we can't do nothing, and it's human nature to keep doing something all the time (except when we're asleep or too tired)?

Doesn't all this show that stillness/silence is against our nature, and our nature is to be active all the time?

BB

taiyaki

find the stillness/silence amongst the thunderstorm. it's there lol.
we are here right now. the mind still moves. such is the nature of the mind.
the space that allows the mind to move is the stillness/silence.

human nature is human being. when you realize the being you realize the doing. they are the same. movement and non-movement are the same thing. our nature functions with or without our awareness of it.

Cloud

A buddha can sit down and do nothing. An experienced meditation practitioner that accesses deep states of concentration can just sit there and do nothing for hours. Our uneasiness at being still is part of our tanha/thirst that causes our suffering; we can't just be happy with things as they are.

When we learn to see things for how they really are, and accept them, the mind becomes still/calm.

betaboy

EDIT: REplying to taiyiki:If that's the case, why can't we do nothing? Why is it we find it intolerable to do nothing and always lose ourselves in action?

betaboy

A buddha can sit down and do nothing. An experienced meditation practitioner that accesses deep states of concentration can just sit there and do nothing for hours. Our uneasiness at being still is part of our tanha/thirst that causes our suffering; we can't just be happy with things as they are.

Thanks, that's what I am getting at - how to interpret our restlessness? Most people would see it as proof that human mind cannot be happy without constant contact with objects (and the sensations they create).

aMatt

We only find nothing intolerable until we break our addiction to doing something. Then doing nothing and doing something look basically the same to us.

taiyaki

when you are doing an action so much that there is no one doing it. that is the same as sitting down and having clear mind.

people don't talk so much about how to bring meditative awareness into actions. you just do it without thinking 100%. whatever you are doing. whether eating or sweeping. you just do it!

if there is no subject/object relationship, which comes from thinking then there is only what is. whether in action or being still. there is no difference between stillness or being active other than the conceptual overlays we give it.

our natural state is always still and always silent. like a still pond. we can throw some rocks into the pond and cause vibrations, but the pool always remains still. the still point is where words cannot go, but it is where all words lead.

you cannot do nothing. you can only be. being and doing are in that sense separate, but when you are in being you can do many things. so they are really the same. sorry about the contradiction. trying to describe how one in being functions is quite difficult. but it is like a pot being made without a potter. it is action without a subject. it is just the verb working. running. eating. no subject.

betaboy

We only find nothing intolerable until we break our addiction to doing something. Then doing nothing and doing something look basically the same to us.

I understand that. I am just saying: if doing nothing creates restlessness and boredom, why must we assume that if we keep at it, then someday 'doing nothing' will give us the opposite result?

Cloud

@betaboy, That's one way to interpret it. In my experience, the mind is always seeking happiness... and any it finds is fleeting, so the mind tries to cling to it and hold it. So it's never satisfied, there's always a subtle frustration with life even amidst being happy. The only real peace is to cut out this wanting from the equation; wanting that is based on a false view of reality. That's what the Buddha's teachings are all about.

The only real happiness is to be content exactly how you are, however the current circumstances are, always. That's enlightenment. That's real peace.

betaboy

@betaboy, That's one way to interpret it. In my experience, the mind is always seeking happiness... and any it finds is fleeting, so the mind tries to cling to it and hold it. So it's never satisfied, there's always a subtle frustration with life even amidst being happy. The only real peace is to cut out this wanting from the equation; wanting that is based on a false view of reality. That's what the Buddha's teachings are all about.

The only real happiness is to be content exactly how you are, however the current circumstances are, always. That's enlightenment. That's real peace.

But if we can only be happy through contact with objects, then wouldn't Buddhist meditation (which discourages such contact) prevent us from being happy?

aMatt

I understand that. I am just saying: if doing nothing creates restlessness and boredom, why must we assume that if we keep at it, then someday 'doing nothing' will give us the opposite result?

Doing nothing does not create restlessness and boredom, any more than turning off loud music creates a ringing in our ears. We simply remove the chaos so we can see more clearly. That restlessness is related to the addiction, not the inaction. With time the mind heals, so to speak, like the ringing subsides wth continued silence.

It isn't really "some time in the future" that we settle, so WE need to have faith... its here and now for many of us, and YOU need to have faith.

Cloud

@betaboy, We still have contact with objects in Buddhist meditation! Thoughts, feelings, sounds, smells, sights if you have your eyes open, bodily sensations... these are all things you're supposed to notice arising and passing in meditation. The point though, of meditation, is to direct perceive the impermanent, not-self and unsatisfactory nature of all fleeting experience. When that happens, the mind becomes disenchanted with "objects" and we begin to be at peace without needing to have contact.

It's all about curing the problem. The problem is the need to have contact and be happy. The solution is to remove that need through clear knowing of reality, and then there's peace (the struggle ends). We go on living, but it's no longer about that constant struggle to be happy... we're already happy, so we can turn to helping other people, doing what is necessary, or doing nothing depending on the situation.

Always look to the Four Noble Truths, the very foundation of Buddhism. (1) Life is suffering (2) because of our thirst/craving; (3) the ending of our thirst is the end of our suffering (i.e. Nirvana), (4) and the Noble Eightfold Path is the way.

betaboy

@cloud

See, this is my problem: all the happiness/peace I've known so far has come from contact with objects. Music gives happiness, or a hill resort gives peace, and so on.

So we take it for granted that peace/happiness is impossible without some object or the other. That being the case, how are we to have faith that peace without object is possible? Since we've never experienced such a thing even once in our lives, how do we have the confidence that it's even real?

Cloud

Have you ever met a long-time monk? Ever listened to His Holiness the Dalai Lama speak? Or anything? There's plenty of evidence that happiness can be found through renouncing the world of sense-pleasures and realizing the true nature of existence directly. It helps to have faith that the Buddha was actually enlightened and that many have been since his time, but really that's going to depend upon your own experience... if you don't have any kind of faith or evidence that this is the case, there's nothing anyone can say.

I have personal experience that insight into reality through meditation can calm and still the mind, making "worldly" pleasures seem less necessary, and that gives me confidence that all of this enlightenment stuff is pretty real. A healthy meditation practice can help you come to the same experiential conclusions, I'd bet.

taiyaki

object gives you a conditional and momentary happiness. true happiness is unconditional and infinite. we believe these "object" give us happiness but in reality all they do is trigger the rest from grasping at them when we get them. that rest gives us bliss. when we realize the contentment within that can never be disturbed then we realize that the bliss has always been here.

it's like we play this game that objects (relationships, money, etc) give us happiness. sure it gives us a moment of happiness. but we have to realize we set this whole thing up. i am going to desire a relationship so i can be happy. when i finally get into a relationship its amazing because my desire has been fulfilled. but just wait a little bit and you'll be looking for the next big thing. the next desire that will fulfill you. and bam the feelings of bliss are gone already. i am sure we've all experienced this, YET we all keep pretending that this process will yield different results. NO that girl wasn't the one but this
girl will be.

lol

federica

@cloud

See, this is my problem: all the happiness/peace I've known so far has come from contact with objects. Music gives happiness, or a hill resort gives peace, and so on.

Transitory happiness/peace due to attachment to a temporary condition.
Music ends, hill resorts get cloudy, rainy and go dark at night...
This happiness/peace is an association with something that will pass.
So too, then, does the happiness/peace.
You mission - should you decide to accept it - is to realise that this happiness/peace can become entrenched even in silence, or on a freeway....

So we take it for granted that peace/happiness is impossible without some object or the other.

No- YOU are taking it for granted and assuming that.... not 'we'....

That being the case, how are we to have faith that peace without object is possible? Since we've never experienced such a thing even once in our lives, how do we have the confidence that it's even real?

Again, it is YOU who has never experienced this.
I have experienced this, and so I know it is completely possible. In fact, it is more conducive to peace, without the distractions...

Cloud

Yeah we can either keep doing the same-old same-old, trying to find and hold onto happiness, or we can go beyond happiness... to a perspective on life where we're at peace and no longer need to seek out temporary pleasures. That's what enlightenment is all about, and it's what contemplating the Buddha's teachings and meditating (and walking the Noble Eightfold Path while observing the Five Precepts to avoid doing harm) are supposed to help us with.

The only way to be truly happy is to be at peace with however things happen to be in each moment, to not be struggling against what you don't like and trying to hold onto what you do like... because the world doesn't bend to our will, even our bodies don't bend to our will (much). We have limited control, but within our control is the ability to rise above pleasure and pain altogether.

santhisouk

@betaboy. You are not off track. You actually have correct thinking. It is our nature to be restless no doubt, but to act as restless as our mind tells us would lead the world into total destruction. This is why meditation is form bringing peace to this world through finding peace within ourselves.

All you have to do is play along with your mind. Be the watcher, and see where your mind goes. The longer you can watch your mind and not act to do what it tells you, the stronger your mind will become. We have to train our minds to be strong. It will not grow strong by itself. Just watching our minds alone, being mindful, and keeping it at bay will lead us to more other positive things that we have yet to experience and enjoy.

metta

person

But if we can only be happy through contact with objects, then wouldn't Buddhist meditation (which discourages such contact) prevent us from being happy?

Our mind is naturally peaceful. The "happiness" that comes through contact with objects is what is known as the suffering of change. Our minds are so thoroughly dominated by our craving and attachments that we don't notice them (like water to a fish), when our craving comes into contact with an object it has a pleasant feeling towards it goes into overdrive and if we can meet that feeling our craving will subside, for the moment at least. That relative calmness is what we normally describe as happiness.

Through meditation we can reduce our craving and begin to taste our minds natural peace. As Nagarjuna says in his Precious Garland:

There is pleasure when a sore is scratched,
But to be without sores is more pleasurable still;
There are pleasures in worldly desires,
But to be without desires is more pleasurable still.

Also the mental states of love and compassion are happy states of mind. If you want to be happy without depending on external factors then do some metta meditation.

Its hard to see beyond our current mental states until we've had enough meditational experience. Going on an intensive meditation retreat can help give you a taste of whats possible.

seeker242

@cloud

See, this is my problem: all the happiness/peace I've known so far has come from contact with objects. Music gives happiness, or a hill resort gives peace, and so on.

So we take it for granted that peace/happiness is impossible without some object or the other. That being the case, how are we to have faith that peace without object is possible? Since we've never experienced such a thing even once in our lives, how do we have the confidence that it's even real?

You try it out and find out for yourself.

DhammaDhatu

Doesn't all this show that stillness/silence is against our nature...

Yes, it does. It shows stillness/silence is against the stream. But to go against the stream can be done, when the appropriate motivation exists.

Thanks, that's what I am getting at - how to interpret our restlessness? Most people would see it as proof that human mind cannot be happy without constant contact with objects (and the sensations they create).

The Buddha taught restlessness has two sources or two causes:

(1) the innate mental tendencies (anusaya) we are born with

(2) mental tendencies conditioned by our actions (karma)

I am just saying: if doing nothing creates restlessness and boredom, why must we assume that if we keep at it, then someday 'doing nothing' will give us the opposite result?

There are two kinds of doing nothing. There is the doing nothing of doing no actions (no karma). And there is the doing nothing of allowing restlessness and boredom to be, until they dissolve.

Restlessness and boredom are impermanent but, now, you seem to be regarding them as permanent when they arise.

See, this is my problem: all the happiness/peace I've known so far has come from contact with objects. Music gives happiness, or a hill resort gives peace, and so on.

So we take it for granted that peace/happiness is impossible without some object or the other. That being the case, how are we to have faith that peace without object is possible? Since we've never experienced such a thing even once in our lives, how do we have the confidence that it's even real?

Indeed, we to have faith that peace without object is possible, even though we do not know it is even real. But, generally, such a faith is only strong enough when there is the loss of faith that music or hill resort gives peace & happiness.

When one has no faith that music or hill resort gives peace & happiness, then in that sense of hopelessness, one has no choice but to have faith in peace without an object. But if we continue to hold faith in music or hill resorts, this will fuel the mind's restlessness and boredom.

We should take care to view Buddhism as "alternative" or "better happiness", in a way than Buddhism becomes like another glittering item at the department store. Worse, we should take care with all of the evangelical salespersons pushing Buddhism; wishing to sell us Buddhism.

Buddhism is like medicine from the doctor. Buddhism is not like the biggest & best plasma TV. If we realise for ourself the biggest & best plasma TV cannot bring us happiness & peace, then we may decide to visit the doctor.

Kind regards

SherabDorje

EDIT: REplying to taiyiki:If that's the case, why can't we do nothing? Why is it we find it intolerable to do nothing and always lose ourselves in action?

I myself have found it impossible too, but I have a diagnosed psychiatric illness. That doesn't mean it's not possible, it's just that it doesn't FEEL possible at this time for you and me.

Think of all the people throughout history and even in the present that can "do nothing" for hours or days at a time. It's not human nature to be constantly active- it only feels like that to you. Difficult, yes- impossible, no.

genkaku

Try to define "nothing."

The moment anyone makes such an effort, no-thing becomes some-thing.

Hence, distinguishing no-thing from some-thing is a fool's errand -- a Tinker Toy for an overactive imagination and little more.

Maybe it would be better not to fret ... find something useful to do like a Buddhist practice or cleaning out the garage.

compassionate_warrior

I think the older you get, the more content you are doing nothing. The need for constant activity seems to pertain more to youth, perhaps a by-product of youthful energy.

betaboy

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. You've given me a lot to ponder. This doubt - and only this doubt - has been gnawing at me all this time, making me wonder whether Buddhist practice is all about chasing something that isn't quite there, namely 'happiness without object'. But I guess the only way to find out is by not chasing objects and see if anything comes from such a state.

Zayl

Hm? I am able to do that, I do it almost every day. I am a slacker by nature though this is more because I place little value on material gains beyond food and shelter so I'd much rather sit about doing nothing, thinking of nothing spectacular, and just generally being an underachiever.

Learn to calm down and be lazy first, then work on actual meditation. You need to learn how to calm your body and mind.

DaltheJigsaw

Great thread! Zen saying.... Paraphrasing.. Sit and shut up?:)

IronRabbit

Don't just do something - sit there.

Tikal2012

Betaboy.
You make a brilliant point, and an amazing observation. It is against our basic nature to oppose stillness, but this nature is rooted in ignorance, and is the cause of suffering. Buddha teaches us to let go of this nature, relax, and come back to the stillness, which is peace, and is Nibbana.
-Tikal

Spaceless

This proof that you have many past lives. _/|\_

DhammaDhatu

Simply proof of the unmitigated restlessness in sperm cells



simply proof the element of wind exists within beings

we do not say the element of wind in a cyclone or hurricane is proof of past lives

Simply proof beings are born with innate urges, such as reproductive instincts & hunger

The Buddha taught each human being is born with underlying tendencies (anusaya)

The Buddha did not say these anusaya come from a past life, such as follows:

caz

Greetings,

It's been a while since I posted here.

Here's my doubt: why is it we can't just sit down and do nothing? The moment we try, we become restless and the mind starts doing something to avoid the stillness. Isn't this proof that we can't do nothing, and it's human nature to keep doing something all the time (except when we're asleep or too tired)?

Doesn't all this show that stillness/silence is against our nature, and our nature is to be active all the time?

BB

Why would one wish to sit an do nothing ? Would one not wish to sit an develop benificals minds ?

NOTaGangsta

After you've been meditating for awhile homeboy, you will find dat you can actually silent their with a dull and silent mind. Datz a second trap you gotta over come. Hence it's good to contemplate things!