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Confused about parts of the eightfold path...
I recently went through a really dark period of my life, where I slipped into a state of seemingly endless torment about my existence and the universe and things like that. I knew a little about buddhism and had never really seen the significance in such teachings before, but I bought the book "Buddhism: Plain and Simple" by Steve Hagen. After the first few pages I felt relief as the things that were being described were exactly the same things that I was mentally suffering from. I had finally found somebody (the author) who knew what I was going through. This was a great help for me.
But as I read further, there were certain things that seem somewhat confusing. When I was reading about "right view" (the first step of the eightfold path), I had real trouble understanding it. Essentially what I was reading is that we should not make a view or a decision about a situation, but just see reality for what it is, moment by moment. But this seems bizarre. If my friend says to me "Hey, what do you think to this song?" am I meant to sit there in an absent state and reply "It is not a 'song'. To call it a song is to freeze it and distort reality. And I do not like this song, or dislike this song. To take a view of this song would be to create dukkha". This kind of situation would arise all the time. "Do you like this vegetable lasagna I made?" To which I answer: "I neither dislike or or like this vegetable lasagna. It is not even a vegetable lasagna. To say this is to freeze reality and to create dukkha. I cannot even thankyou for cooking me this meal because to do so would be to take the view that what you did was a kind action, which would be to freeze you into a mere concept." You get the picture... how do I understand right view without resorting to this idea that I would sit in a spot for my entire life having no opinion or friends (because to say I consider somebody a friend would be to be take a view that they are a nice person that I like, and that is not a fluid view of life, seeing things as they are in the moment).
I'm sure I'm interpreting this teaching wrong... Could anyone clarify this to me?
Thanks
But as I read further, there were certain things that seem somewhat confusing. When I was reading about "right view" (the first step of the eightfold path), I had real trouble understanding it. Essentially what I was reading is that we should not make a view or a decision about a situation, but just see reality for what it is, moment by moment. But this seems bizarre. If my friend says to me "Hey, what do you think to this song?" am I meant to sit there in an absent state and reply "It is not a 'song'. To call it a song is to freeze it and distort reality. And I do not like this song, or dislike this song. To take a view of this song would be to create dukkha". This kind of situation would arise all the time. "Do you like this vegetable lasagna I made?" To which I answer: "I neither dislike or or like this vegetable lasagna. It is not even a vegetable lasagna. To say this is to freeze reality and to create dukkha. I cannot even thankyou for cooking me this meal because to do so would be to take the view that what you did was a kind action, which would be to freeze you into a mere concept." You get the picture... how do I understand right view without resorting to this idea that I would sit in a spot for my entire life having no opinion or friends (because to say I consider somebody a friend would be to be take a view that they are a nice person that I like, and that is not a fluid view of life, seeing things as they are in the moment).
I'm sure I'm interpreting this teaching wrong... Could anyone clarify this to me?
Thanks
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Comments
the point of right view is to loosen our views on things. that doesn't mean to discard them. it means to be open minded and see things as they are rather than what we skew them to be through our thinking process. opinions are fine as long as you don't cling to them as if they had some kind of objective existence. most people die and fight for their ideas. for most people ideas are more real than say the rock on the ground. i assure you the rock on the ground is more real than the ideas we have in our minds. our ideas in our minds are just abstractions that relate to the external reality.
just be open minded and don't be so landlocked on any idea. they are just abstractions after all.
Practicing Buddhism -- as distinct from reading about it -- means to pay attention to what comes and goes. Just pay attention. You don't have to get your knickers in a twist. Just pay attention. If you don't like sardines, you don't like sardines. If you do like chocolate ice cream, you do like chocolate ice cream. These things come and go and go and come, endlessly. Our only job is to try not to be snared into believing that what we like or dislike is a descriptive truth of our own true nature. Sardines and chocolate are possibilities ... perfectly acceptable. But the "me" part is unnecessary ... until it becomes necessary.
The way I'm seeing it is that our thoughts and views should be like clouds in the sky. They're very much there, but they pass and change shape in the wind, without obstruction or resistance. Would this be a fair way of looking at it?
in that sense we can relate to anyone regardless of what they think. we don't form opinions and interpretations of people, but we just see them for what they are. they are just potential and expression. they aren't any of the labels we project onto them because they can change. so we realize with our thoughts we shape and create our subjective reality. when we gradually let go of all the stories and beliefs we have about everything, we just see things as they are. we become much simpler and we do what is necessary in the moment. it is not that we have an idea or a philosophy that tells us what to do in the moment, but what we need to do in the moment is obvious when we aren't clouded by our desires and conditioning. we just do what is most obvious in the given circumstance. if i am hungry, i eat. if someone is hungry, i feed them.
so right view brings about the rest of the path. the point is to do no harm to others and ourselves. simply, just help people. we do this first by loosening our attachment to our stories and concepts.
Through meditation we can train our minds to remain open to a given situation without closing in on a fixed position that may change in the next moment.
Now I don't know whether this question should be in the meditation forum or not, but I'm going to ask here as it's more of a conceptual problem. In the book I'm reading, it briefly goes over meditation. It calls it "zazen", which I think (correct me if I'm wrong) is one 'type' of meditation. Does this mean there are different types of meditation that approach things in different ways? But the thing that puzzles me most is, upon watching a video about zazen, the guy says that there is no point to it, that we should not expect to get anything out of it and that that's what most people struggle with about it... I don't really know what meditation is about, but I was always under the impression that it had a point to it - otherwise why would we do it?
Could anyone offer any clarification on the concept of meditation in general? (is zazen just one type - if so, what other types are there. What is the point of meditation?)
Thanks
If we meditate to become enlightened, we're looking for enlightenment in meditation. We won't find it, not that we even know what it looks like. All that we can see in meditation is how the mind works and the aspects of these experiences (that they don't last, always have a cause and eventually we see that they are painful to grasp).
There are different types of meditation, but the effective ones all come down to the same thing... observing the mind; observing your experiences. It's not about turning the mind off. Whether it's zazen or samatha-vipassana, it'll get the job done. You just have to make sure you're doing it correctly and consistently, putting in the effort to unravel the nature of mind and all things.
Also, yeah there are different types of meditation. At the start most traditions will just tell you to sit and watch your breath, let thoughts and sensations come and go. So just start there, that will keep you going for a long while and you can study up on the different styles and traditions in the mean time until you find what fits you best.
But I was just reading on buddhanet in the Q and A section, and it says this:
Q: What is meditation?
A: Meditation is a conscious effort to change how the mind works. The Pali word for meditation is 'bhavana' which means 'to make grow' or 'to develop'.
This seems strange given what you've both just said. I perceive from you that meditation is about opening, clearing and observing the mind and our thought process to assist with the other aspects of the eightfold path (correct me if I'm wrong). But this implies that we are actively trying to "change" the mind when we meditate...
But then to complicate matters more, there is contemplation and analytic meditation where we do actually attempt to change our views by repeated reflection on the teachings. If you're new to Buddhism don't worry too much about these since they require some degree of familiarity with our minds and some mental stability for them to be effective.
In the end we are trying to open the way to awakening, to enlightenment (to alleviate suffering for ourselves and others). We observe how the mind works and the nature of those experiences, this changes our view or perspective on those experiences (insight) which leads to awakening (enlightenment). It's all the same thing.
Make more sense now? Sometimes simple definitions can conflict, so we have to go deeper into what we're actually doing and why.
According to Buddha, right view, the first part of the noble eightfold path, means knowing and understanding the four noble truths. Now, there is a lot of stuff out there today about Buddhism, and some of it is conducive to happiness, and some of it is conducive to suffering, but what Buddhism always comes back to, and what the most important thing in Buddhism will always be, is knowing and understanding the four noble truths. If you do not have the four noble truths, then you do not have Buddhism.
A lot of the time the four noble truths are taught as four sentences that Buddha said that have absolutely nothing to do with you, and you don't have to pay any attention to them. However, if you chose to ignore, or simply do not understand the four noble truths, you will be missing an enormous part of your practice, and the part you will be missing is indeed the most important part - the foundation.
What are the four noble truths? The four noble truths are as follows:
1) Suffering: Birth is suffering, death is suffering, old age, sickness, sorrow, lamentation, pain grief, and despair are suffering. In short the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
2) The cause of suffering: Craving is the cause of suffering. Craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, and craving for non-becoming are the cause of suffering.
3) The cessation of suffering: The abandonment of craving is the cessation of suffering.
4) The way leading to the cessation of suffering: The way leading to the cessation of suffering is just this noble eightfold path; that is right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
The thing about the four noble truths is that they really are a profound and subtle process that occurs in your mind. They are the description of how we chose to proliferate suffering in our minds by becoming tense and begin thinking, and how we can unbind, let go, and relax that process of suffering. The four noble truths is really about learning to see how this process of suffering arises, and passes away. My advice to you is take most Buddhist teachings with a polite grain of salt. If it doesn't feel right, or if you don't agree with it, or if by hearing it it doesn't make you feel lighter, softer, and happier inside, then just move on. The mind that Buddha taught us to cultivate is a soft, aware, and peaceful mind that is free from thinking, and can just simply experience the present moment as it is without getting involved in it. In it's most simple explanation, Nibbana could be described as detachment. It does go a lot further, deeper, and subtler than that, and the experience of Nibbana is indeed so profound that it is effectively impossible to describe it with words, but in it's essence it is a completely detached state of being. You are allowed to tell your friends how much you like their lasagna.
-Tikal
I wrote this guide to meditation in a previous post, however I will copy and paste it for you, as I think it might serve as a benefit to you in your practice.
The key to meditation lies in your thoughts, or more specifically letting go of them, and then relaxing the tension that caused those thoughts - craving - the cause of suffering.
A lot of people who practice meditation of the breath practice in the following way: when they notice their mind is distracted, they let go of the thought, then they return to the object of meditation, which is watching the breath as it comes in, and watching it as it comes out. This is a good meditation because it develops concentration, the eighth factor in the eightfold path, however it is missing one crucial step that differentiates Buddha's meditation from the meditation of others, and it contains one step that is erroneous in that it does not conduce to the cultivation of the cessation of suffering.
The step that this meditation is missing is that after the meditator has let go of the thoughts, and before he returns to the object of meditation, he needs to relax. The reason for this is that craving (tension and tightness in the mind and body regarding a feeling) causes clinging (thinking about the feeling). Buddha asserts that if we want to experience the cessation of suffering, we need to remove craving from our minds, and how do we do that? We relax. This is why it is so important to relax the tension in your mind and body after you let go of the thinking, because this is what makes the meditation productive. It's what makes you experience the cessation of suffering - Nibbana. It's the reason we meditate.
Now that you have relaxed the tension and tightness that caused your mind to begin thinking, you are returning to your object of meditation. Now, what is your object of meditation? Many people simply apply their minds to watching the rise and fall of the breath. This is good, because it develops concentration, an enlightenment factor. However, we need to maintain the tranquilization of craving, the cause of suffering, and how did Buddha advise us to do this? In his instructions of mindfulness of breathing, we are told to do four things. They are:
1) Know that you are breathing in a long breath. Know that you are breathing out a long breath.
2) Know that you are breathing in a short breath. Know that you are breathing out a short breath.
Now these are the really important steps:
3) Feel your entire body when you breath in. Feel your entire body when you breath out.
4) Tranquilize your bodily formations when you breath in. Tranquilize your bodily formations when you breath out.
Your bodily formations are the components that your body's functioning depends upon. They are the in breath and out breath, the heart rate, your muscles, ligaments, joints, bones, organs, everything. Just tranquilize them on the in breath, and tranquilize them on the out breath.
After you've caught your mind straying enough times, relaxed the tension that caused your mind to stray, then returned to your wholesome object of meditation (relaxing on the in breath, and relaxing on the out breath), you will begin to enter into the Jhanas. You will begin seeing more and more clearly, for yourself, the links that make up this impersonal (anatta) process. You will begin to see for yourself the subtle mechanisms in your mind that propel and proliferate this process of suffering, and you will begin to let them go. You are now experiencing the knowledge and understanding of the four noble truths as they arise and pass away - Nibbana. Practice, practice, practice, and don't forget to smile and have fun.
-Tikal
Tikal, thanks for the advice. I'm going to try this meditation today. I was just wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the topic of 'craving'. What do you mean exactly? I perceive that word as meaning 'wanting'.
However, I volunteer at my local charity shop because I want to help those who are less fortunate. When I'm hungry, I crave food (I know this is probably not what you're talking about, it's just an example of where I'm confused). When I see injustice, I want to stand up to it. For example, over a year ago I attended a march to send a message out to my government that they should make climate change a priority and that something must be done about it. I did that because I want, or 'crave', a stop to the process of CO2 emissions because I know that it causes suffering now through the pollutants that usually accompany such emissions and know that it will cause suffering later.
Should I not strive for things like this? This, again, takes me back to the zombie view of the teachings.
It was my pleasure to write those instructions to you. The thing about the word craving and the modern understanding of the four noble truths is that this word has a slight tendency to be misunderstood. The Pali word that it is translated from is 'thana,' which is sometimes translated as 'thirst,' or 'unsatisfactoriness.' Most translations simply render it as 'craving,' which although it does the original word of 'thana' some injustice, and can even lead to the same misunderstanding that you might be experiencing, it does act as a some what reliable and fitting translation.
What the word thana does not apply to is your want to shop at a local charity shop, your want to participate in civic activism, your want to eat, your want to make friends, your want to have a good time, or your want to enjoy life. Although these things are motivated by a thrust, or desire, the word thana is really trying to apply to a more subtle quality of mind. It is a label used to describe the minds reaction to a feeling.
Buddha teaches that when a sense object (light) comes into contact with a sense organ (eye), sense-based consciousness (eye consciousness) arises. He calls the meeting of these three things contact. When contact occurs, it causes a feeling to arise. There are three types of feeling: pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, and neither painful-nor-pleasant feeling. The arising of a feeling is what causes craving to come into play. When a feeling has arisen in your body, or in your mind, your mind responds automatically by saying "I like that," and it tightens down around it and tries to pull on it, or it will say "I don't like that," and it will tighten down around it and try to push it away. This is what Buddha called thana, or craving. It is your minds tendency to tighten down around a feeling, and get it to either leave as quickly as possible, or make it stay around for as long as possible. Craving always manifests as tension and tightness in your mind, and in your body. If your mind really likes something, and it really wants it to stick around, then it's really going to try and hold on tightly, but how is it going to do that? Where can the mind derive enough energy and fuel to hold onto this feeling for a satisfactory period of time? Buddha says our minds use thinking as fuel for craving. He called this thinking clinging, and when we start to think about an object, we become more and more wrapped up in views, opinions, stories, and concepts until we can't handle it any more, and we act. Buddha called this action habitual tendency. Habitual tendency is "every time I feel like this I act in this way." The arising of this habitual tendency causes birth, or renewal of experience, and with this renewal of experience comes old age, sickness, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair, and death. In short, it causes the proliferation of suffering.
Buddha points out to us that not only is this a process of suffering, but also that the cause of this process is craving. If we can learn to let go of this craving, and relax it, then we can experience for our selves the cessation of suffering. When we let go of the tension of craving in our minds we become capable of experiencing the present moment clearly, with a mind that is soft, easy going, gentle, and inwardly peaceful. We become more awake, and clear headed, and this is what Buddha's meditation is all about. When we practice removing our attention from clinging, relaxing the tension of craving, and returning to a peaceful object of meditation, we are practicing a form of meditation that leads to the cultivation of a state of happiness that is not subject to birth or death. We are cultivating Nibbana.
-Tikal
I mean dammmm, is "free love" actually wholesome?!!