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Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta)
Anyone want to try & get a discussion about this sutta going?
BuckyG
"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:
There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before:' This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.'
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, there arose to Ven. Kondañña the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.
And when the Blessed One had set the Wheel of Dhamma in motion, the earth devas cried out: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by priest or contemplative, deva, Mara or God or anyone in the cosmos." On hearing the earth devas' cry, the devas of the Four Kings' Heaven took up the cry... the devas of the Thirty-three... the Yama devas... the Tusita devas... the Nimmanarati devas... the Paranimmita-vasavatti devas... the devas of Brahma's retinue took up the cry: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by priest or contemplative, deva, Mara, or God or anyone at all in the cosmos."
So in that moment, that instant, the cry shot right up to the Brahma worlds. And this ten-thousand fold cosmos shivered & quivered & quaked, while a great, measureless radiance appeared in the cosmos, surpassing the effulgence of the devas."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.htm
Then the Blessed One exclaimed: "So you really know, Kondañña? So you really know?" And that is how Ven. Kondañña acquired the name Añña-Kondañña — Kondañña who knows."
BuckyG
"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:
There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before:' This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.'
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, there arose to Ven. Kondañña the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.
And when the Blessed One had set the Wheel of Dhamma in motion, the earth devas cried out: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by priest or contemplative, deva, Mara or God or anyone in the cosmos." On hearing the earth devas' cry, the devas of the Four Kings' Heaven took up the cry... the devas of the Thirty-three... the Yama devas... the Tusita devas... the Nimmanarati devas... the Paranimmita-vasavatti devas... the devas of Brahma's retinue took up the cry: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by priest or contemplative, deva, Mara, or God or anyone at all in the cosmos."
So in that moment, that instant, the cry shot right up to the Brahma worlds. And this ten-thousand fold cosmos shivered & quivered & quaked, while a great, measureless radiance appeared in the cosmos, surpassing the effulgence of the devas."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.htm
Then the Blessed One exclaimed: "So you really know, Kondañña? So you really know?" And that is how Ven. Kondañña acquired the name Añña-Kondañña — Kondañña who knows."
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
1. the sutta refers to 'the five clinging-aggregates'. how do these five aggregates cling?
2. the sutta refers to 'craving that makes for further becoming'. so if there is "further" becoming, is there a "current" becoming, something static & concrete?
3. the sutta states 'there is now no further becoming'. so does this indicate a 'current' becoming remains but further becoming ends?
4. how did what was spoken by the Buddha result in the insight in Kondañña, namely: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation"?
thanks
On questions 2. and 3. I understand "becoming" as a dynamic process which is dependent on conditions.
On question 4., I'm not sure what you're asking.
Spiny
2. Craving can end.
3. I think it means that a mystical sense of being has departed or detached from the physical/mental self.
4. Perhaps he(Kondanna) had been contemplating that question for some time.
2 & 3. Thanks, but still, my inquiry is not resolved. The translation clearly states, twice, "further becoming". So it definitely seems to be asserting there is a "fixed becoming" now, which will not occur in the future. So this does not make sense to me because how could the vision or direct experience of the cessation of suffering happen if it is connected to something not occurring in the future? How can stopping "relishing now here & now" lead to something not occuring in the future? This passage remains unclear to me.
4. Well, the Buddha had just spoken about suffering, the origination of suffering, the cessation of suffering and the path leading to the cessation of suffering and Kondañña had the realisation: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation". The Buddha spoke on a limited topic but Kondañña developed an all embracing view about impermanence. This has always intrigued me.
Regards
:scratch:
Keep in mind, however, that this is purely conjecture. There is no inherent existence/selfness in any of the aggregates or the "self" they comprise.
2) There is no such thing as "static or concrete." When he says "craving that makes for further becoming" he is talking about the endless becoming experienced and propogated by the ignorant. "Further becoming" is "current becoming."
3) With the cessation of this, that ends. With the cessation of becoming now, so ends further becoming. Keep in mind, becoming does not cause becoming. Attachment causes becoming. There is no remaining becoming to be propogated in the future because of the cessation of ignorance->attachment. I hope that makes sense.
4) He realized that there is an origination of suffering and that there is a cessation of suffering for all that originates is subject to cessation. The Buddha did not cause this liberating insight to occur. His teaching aided Kondanna in discovering this truth for himself. It appears that Kondanna was "one with little dust in his eyes."
:scratch: Oh, you have said it differently. But the translation does not say craving leads to "now" becoming. It says craving leads to "further" becoming.
I did not read anything about "attachment causes becoming".
So Kondañña realised the planet earth is subject to arising & cessation and, from that insight, realised the arising of suffering is subject to cessation.
:scratch:
Craving that creates the imagining of a walking, living, breathing "person" or "existence".
Craving that creates figments of the imagination.
Thanks Santhisouk
how can we use other suttas or teachings to make sense of it?
Do you see something similar?
I was satisfied with Santhisouk's answer. As for the notion of "continuity", it does not resonate with me.
The most common translation is "renewed becoming" but the Western translators are sort of obsessed with the prefix "re". For me, simply "new" becoming is satisfactory. Each becoming is something "new" rather than some continuity of "being".
The mind without craving abides in "emptiness" and the same mind with craving generates "becoming". There is emptiness & becoming rather than continued becoming, imo. Possibly. Personally, no. But thanks for your ideas.
Here's some various translations of the passage in question:
"Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming'" (Thanissaro).
"This knowledge and the vision arose in me: 'My release is assured. This is the last birth. There is no further becoming" (Sucitto).
"Knowing and seeing arose in me thus: 'My heart's deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being'" (Ñanamoli Thera).
"Indeed, knowledge and seeing arose in me: 'Unshakeable is the liberation of my mind; this is my last birth: now there is no more renewed existence'" (Harvey).
"And a vision of insight arose in me thus: 'Unshakable is the deliverance of my heart. This is the last birth. Now there is no more re-becoming (rebirth)'" (Piyadassi Thera).
May all beings find the causes of true happiness within.
bucky
"Ponobhavika" means "leading to new existence"; "leading to new becoming".
END :coffee:
Perhaps this will help. It's from Ajahn's Sucitto's commentary of the passage, "This knowledge and the vision arose in me: 'My release is assured. This is the last birth. There is no further becoming."
"Interestingly the Buddha didn't speak of 'rebirth' or 're' anything. He spoke of switching of the current that carries the signals, the current of further becoming. So it's not that there's a consciousness that moves from one life to the next; rather, it's sankhara programs in the flow of becoming that generate, inform, and program a consciousness that produces another consciousness. And they do so in a pattern that contains the dominant tendencies of the mind that's been guiding it for the span of a life. There's transmission of a code. Say you're big on sports, then the sports channel is the one you'd be tuned in to. The kammic patterns that I've encouraged during this life span continue--or to put it simply, 'I' get born again. But if that sankhara ceases, if the program is cleansed of leaning and grasping, then that process isn't going to happen. This is what the Buddha has done. He switched off the power. No transmission. No e-mails or TV shows are getting sent, so they don't land. There's no more birth" (Turning the Wheel of Truth, p. 180).
May all beings find the causes of true happiness within.
There is becoming and there is non-becoming. If there is non-becoming, naturally whatever becoming there is is like a 'mushroom' of becoming. Becoming is an "asava". A mental outflow. It arises & ceases. It is impermanent.
For example, when we were a child, we became: "My daddy's daughter", "My mommy's son". When we grew older, we became: "American" (some of us have not outgrown this becoming). Then later we become: "X's husband"; "Y's wife".
Or we ceased to become: "I am no longer a Catholic". I am no longer part of "harmful patriarchy".
These becomings are all separate arisings of craving & attachment.
In reality, the sentence simply is: "There is no more becoming".
Plane as in another plane of existence.
"puna" = again
"bhavo" = becoming
there will not be becoming again
So, why say it is empty if it is actually a state of non-craving in a calm mind?
I don't consider your perspective difficult to see, I simply see it as incorrectly describing the relationship between clinging and becoming. The "mushroom" doesn't arise from nowhere, does it?
In metaphor, we swallow a food (clinging) and burp it up (asava)? Isn't the food we swallow the projected outflow? Which is what we become mindful to stop doing?
There are four levels of enlightened beings. Only one is 100% free from becoming.
The other three still have becomings.
In other words having a "craving" and thus being "reborn" as in coming to being anew.
You asked, "Has it already been discussed perhaps in another thread that "rebirth" also means to be reborn during this same life and not necessarily the next life?"
Here?
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/202193#Comment_202193
May all beings be happy.
bucky
Spiny
Spiny
Regarding becoming (bhava): see also SN 12:15, 12:64, 22:54, 56:1, Iti 49 & especially AN 3:76.
Regarding "emptiness" & what Kondañña saw:
"Kondanya was freed from falling into the lower realms. This was something definite.... There was no way he could ever return to performing wrong actions by way of body and speech. He had gone beyond the sort of turmoil that is actually hell itself.... The mind cannot go that way anymore; it cannot return to its old ways....
The Buddha intended for us to be free of attachment to the five aggregates, to lay them down and give up involvement with them. We cannot give them up, however, because we don't really know them for what they are. We believe happiness to be ourselves; we see ourselves as happy. We believe suffering to be ourselves as unhappy. We can't pull the mind out of this view, which means we are not seeing nature. There isn't any self involved, but we are always thinking in terms of self. Thus it seems that happiness happens to us, suffering happens to us, elation happens to us, depression happens to us. The chain of self is construed, and with this solid feeling that there is a self, everything seems to be happening to us.
So the Buddha said to destroy this conception, this block called self. When the concept of self is destroyed and finished, we are free of the belief that there is a self in the body, and then the condition of selflessness is naturally revealed.... Thus, Anya Kondanya saw the nature of all things.... He saw clearly and truly. From that moment on, whatever he encountered, he just saw arising and passing away. Pleasant and unpleasant phenomena still kept appearing to his mind, but he merely recognized their appearance. There was no way he could fall into the states of extreme suffering that are called the lower realms" (Ajahn Chah, Being Dharma, pp.166-168).
How does seeing arising and passing away as the nature of all things relate to what spoken in the Four Noble Truths?
metta
santhisouk, you could have a point there. Kondanna followed the discourse, as it was spoken, and understood the words via his own experience.
In the 1st part, his mind comprehended suffering, it arisings & its cessation.
Then in the 2nd part, his mind comprehended suffering, it arisings & its cessation again.
Then in the 3rd part, his mind comprehended suffering, it arisings & its cessation again.
However, I still question how Kondanna developed insight into the arising & passing of all things.
"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful"
the translation is: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation"
so the word 'dhamma' in the Pali appears missing in the translation
'dhamma' can mean 'things'; it can also mean 'the way things are; characteristic; nature'
probably the realisation is more broad rather than as sounds so specific in the translation
possibly Kondanna realised: "all that has the nature to arise, has the nature to cease"
however, i still question whether Kondanna realised all conditoned things have the nature of impermanence
of my original four questions, the first three were just for the benefit of the thread. i myself was not looking for answers there. but the fourth question about Kondanna has always intrigued me
regards
Spiny
It occured to me that this one sutta would be enough to follow the path. Maybe all the rest is window dressing? ;-)
Spiny
The discourse gave birth to one stream-enterer from five listeners.
This in itself demonstrates its limitations.
The 4NTs, imo, are over rated.
That's why I like it so much.
Regards,
Bucky
Becoming ends. Your conclusion. You construct an elaborate argument:
(P=premise, C=conclusion)
P1: If the meaning of the statement "there is now no further becoming" in this sutta indicates a 'current' becoming remains but further becoming ends;
P2: And, if the meaning of the statement "craving makes for further becoming" in this sutta indicates a "current" becoming, static & concrete;
P3: And, if the meaning of the statement "relishing here & now" in this sutta indicates the direct experience of the cessation of suffering cannot happen if connected to something not occurring in the future,
C: Then, this sutta definitely asserts a "fixed becoming" now, which will not occur in the future & justifies using "new" instead of "further." Or as the Pali indicates: punabbhavo is a compound of "puna" = again and "bhavo" = becoming there will not be becoming again.
just to support you opinion that on this one point the Buddha merely meant becoming ends? Why did you DRAG it out?
Regarding how seeing arising and passing away relates to the four noble truths
(1) From the "Becoming, non-becoming, and right view" section of Ajahn Sucitto's book Kamma and the End of Kamma
"The process of identification...is activated by clinging. As clinging occurs, the process is given personal traits and character by a biased view called 'becoming....' 'Got it becomes 'I've got it or 'I'm stuck in this' or 'I'm always going to be this way.' Clinging sticks this moment to the next moment and becoming makes a pattern--which then can get extended forward in terms of expectation or dread; or woven into a detailed portrait of 'she's like this' or 'I'll never be like that.' Becoming is ignorance in action....
The tough thing to come to terms with is that this 'me' sense can never be very stable or satisfied, because it arises dependent on holding to any state of being, and these states change....
You have to grow out of becoming by reviewing how your mind works in terms of skillful and unskillful, bright or dark, rather than in terms of what I am or could be. It is this view, of witnessing and evaluation without clinging and self-mirroring, that has to be born in mind as mental content and patterns get revealed. The full scope of this selfless view is encapsulated in the teaching of the 'four noble truths:' of suffering, its origin, its ceasing and the path to that ceasing. With this teaching you can assess where you're stuck, what you need to do about it, where you're getting free and how to develop that. Although it's an intimate assessment, it isn't based on self-view.... You're not looking to to the normal self-image with its inflationary or contracted gaze for definition. Instead you see your patterns in terms of the four noble truths; this is the afflictive area; this is where it's generated, this is the clearer, more resourceful aspect; this is where development can occur. The four noble truths present us with a map of the old kamma we carry, of how fresh kamma gets generated, and of the kamma the leads to Awakening" (pp. 141-143)
May all beings be happy.
bucky
From the chapter, "Cultivation: The Wheel on The Road," in Ajahn Sucitto's book, "Turning the Wheel of Truth: Commentary on the Buddha's First Teaching" (Shambala, 2010).
"'There is this noble truth of the path leading to the cessation of suffering.... This noble truth of the path is to be cultivated.... This noble truth of the path has been cultivated; such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing, and light that arose in me about things not heard before....'
The Buddha described his own experience of awakening in a particular way. It wasn't just a momentary flash but a thorough review of the way the mind works, and, with each realization, the Buddha later commented: 'But I allowed no pleasant feeling that arose in me to gain power over my mind.' So the bliss of release at each stage wasn't grasped at--he maintained a focus on the path established by the understanding of mental kamma, cause, noting results but not getting absorbed into them. The severance of each fetter comes when fundamental constraining activities (asava) stop at each level of awakening. Asava means something like toxic seepage; it's translated as 'outflow' (as from an abscess), or 'influx" (as from a leak in a sewage system), or "taints" (to describe the bias that they place on the mind's awareness). The language is striking in its intensity for a good reason: we don't take this stuff seriously enough. However, like a leak in a dam, asava are of the nature to create further and more damaging floods....
The outflow of becoming is powerful. As a latent tendency it works as the quality of mind that looks toward the future and wants things to be solid. This tendency is uprooted as the wisdom of nonclinging refers to the sense of time. Time as a sense is not numbers on a clock, it's the pull of becoming. When this wisdom reviews that, it sees that there is no end, no achievement in time, only the pushing onward. It sees that there's no solid ground, only mirages. The wisdom of nonclinging itself is the only true ground. And that's timeless, here and now" (pp. 137 & 141-142)
May all beings be happy.
bucky
"I find it quite boggling that in the Buddhist world the really profound teaching has been dismissed as primitive Buddhism: ‘That’s for the little kids, the beginners. The advanced course is....’ They go into complicated theories and ideas - forgetting the most profound teaching.
The Four Noble Truths are a lifetime’s reflection. It is not just a matter of realising the Four Noble Truths, the three aspects, and twelve stages and becoming an arahant on one retreat — and then going onto something advanced. The Four Noble Truths are not easy like that. They require an ongoing attitude of vigilance and they provide the context for a lifetime of examination."
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