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Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion (Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta)
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Regarding Craving & Further Becoming:
"There was once a senior monk in Bangkok who was learning meditation from Ajaan Lee. He was well read and knew his Buddhist doctrine. After a while of practicing concentration, he complained to Ajaan Lee, "As we bring the mind to concentration like this, aren't we developing states of becoming and birth?" Bhava and jati are the words he used. You may have noticed as we were chanting the Sutta on Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion just now: The craving that leads to further becoming is the craving that leads to suffering as well. The senior monk was reasoning from this point, saying that we should be trying to abandon states of becoming and birth, and yet here we are creating them. And Ajaan Lee said, "Precisely. That's what we're doing. If you want to understand becoming and birth, you have to consciously create these states. Create a state of wellbeing, create a state of fullness, get good at it. That's when you understand the process. Before you take things apart, you have to learn how to put them together" (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/meditations4.html#becoming).
May all beings find the causes of true happiness within.
bucky
I'm glad to see the expositions and discussions are becoming less literal hermeneutically and exegetically.
May you all be well.
bucky
Metta
As a process, 'bhava' is 'becoming'. As the completion of a process, 'bhava' is also the sense of 'existence' or 'being'.
It is related as much to the 'now' as it is to 'the future'.
The arahants were born from the Buddha's 2nd sermon. Later, Dependent Origination provided a more detailed & exquisite description of what the 4NTs simply summarised.
The reality of suffering has its source in ignorance and the 4NTs have the source of dukkha at craving.
Despite what the suttas say, ignorance is more than simply not knowing the 4NTs.
The literal sutta is something very specific. Exacting. If one cannot understand the literal spoken word of the Buddha then one is not understanding anything.
Contrary to the criticisms of hermeneutics, Ajahn Sucitto's explanation is not "coherent".
But at least in demonstrates my point how the 4NTs are a very limited teaching.
'Bhava' as a latent tendency is not the 'bhava' mentioned in the 2nd Noble Truth.
'Bhava' as a latent tendency is connected to the ignorance link of the Dependent Origination where as the 'bhava' mentioned in the 2nd Noble Truth is the 10th link of Dependent Origination, which arises as a product of craving.
So Ajahn Sucitto has had to use another teaching (that of the anusaya: latent tendency) to discuss 'bhava' in its fullness. This is not possible by simply refering to the 4NTs.
Similary, the "wisdom of nonclinging" will not uproot the latent tendency of bhava. It is insufficient. It requires vipassana wisdom on the Three Characteristics. The "wisdom of nonclinging" will just stop becoming occuring but not uproot the tendency. Yet the 4NTs only offers us the wisdom of nonclinging.
Then at the end, Ajahn Sucitto seems to contradict himself by saying: "It sees that there's no solid ground, only mirages".
To use Ajahn Sucitto's words, becoming is both: "the quality of mind that looks toward the future and wants things to be solid" and "solid ground, [not] only mirages" in the here & now.
:wow:
exegetical: Of or relating to exegesis; critically explanatory.
Becoming can be comprehended via direct introspection of it; via direct insight.
Contary to Ajaan Lee, the Buddha did not state the path is exclusively lead by concentration (i.e., fine material becoming).
The basis of the Buddhist religion is the Buddha expounded the Dhamma perfectly.
Everyday, millions of Buddhists chant: "Svakkato bhagavata dhammo": "That dhamma, perfectly explained by the Blessed One".
Yesterday, I was listening to an audio of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa ranting on endlessly about how some or someone in the audience believed the speaker (him) did not know what they are talking about; that it is in fact the listener that does not know how to listen.
I asked myself: "What is Bhikkhu Buddhadasa ranting on endlessly about?" For what purpose?
Now I understand why, where the words "hermeneutically" and "exegetically" are pasted in a sutta discussion to give deference to the babble of Western monks & nuns and inferring the Buddha did not know what he was talking about. But in fact, often, the translator did not know what the Buddha was talking about.
Sorry, but a monk that does not know whether he is expounding Buddhism or Krishnamurti does not warrant the call of "hermeneutically" and "exegetically".
"Hermeneutically" and "exegetically" are just more intellectual American university dogma.
Again, the hermeneutic departure only leads to confusion, misunderstanding & misrepresentation.
I have not and will not read any of your new posts (and very few in the past week). I will not read any of your future posts anywhere on the internet. I presume the ones here are addressed to me. If I'm you're only audience, you're time is wasted. My tolerance is spent for your disruptive de-railment of topics to serve your pet opinions or support the opinions of the teacher you have (at least) implicitly pledged allegiance to (Buddhadasa). These behaviors, along with your passive/aggressive or otherwise indirect derision and defamation innuendo, are not the type of etiquette civil people use to engage discussion.
bucky
Please return to the topic. You are being disruptive & de-railing the thread. Please note, you seem to be posting to serve your pet opinions or support the opinions of the teachers you have (at least) implicitly pledged allegiance to, such as the "Rogue Nun". What a bizarre way to start one's internet career.
Myself, I have no personal allegience to Buddhadasa. Believe me. I simply often agree with most of his views about Buddhism, that is all. But, as I have demonstrated on this forum, I am most willing to disagree with many of Buddhadasa's non-sensical & ludicrous views about other religions, dhammic socialism, materialism, etc.
It is Dhamma-Dhatu who commenced the discussion on this thread. Your original post was here for seven hours. Please have gratitude & recognition that DD was the only person who answered your posts and commenced the discussion asking open questions, to stimulate appropriate discussion. My posts accord fully with the topic. It is you that is just cutting & pasting.
Best to return to topic. Try to be tolerant and accept I have a history of very strong disagreements about Thanissaro's translations, which are often seriously flawed.
May you be tolerant. May you accept that others have their own opinions. May your mind realise sense objects are mere sense objects. May our hearts grow in universal love.
My view is the translation best say "the five aggregates (groups) of clinging are suffering" or "clinging to the five aggregates is suffering".
As I previously said, 'pono bhavika' I regard as 'new becoming'.
Puna bhava = again becoming, that is, there is no more becoming again anywhere, either here, now, in the future or about the past
Becoming is not only about the present & the future. It is also about the past.
Spiny
Spiny
I wonder how many suttas there are where the 4NTs appear and how many suttas there are where they don't?
May all beings be happpy.
bucky
Spiny
1) The other two characteristics seem to me to only exist because of impermanence.
2) Is it because of your view on grasping here that, as you said above, dependent origination is an elaboration of the second Noble Truth?
May you be well.
bucky
why did the Buddha preach his 2nd sermon on the Three Characteristics if they were implicit in the 4NTs?
please explain?
thanks
The 4 Noble Truths and the 12 links of dependent origination are both applications of this general principle of conditionality ( "When this, that is..." )
Dukkha arises because we don't see these truths and grasp at phenomomena which are transient and insubstantial.
spiny
Spiny
DD
But it's the 4NTs which provide the basic framework, the motivation and the path of practice.
I agree that developing insight via the 3 characteristics is an important aspect of the 8-fold path. But if you just told somebody about the 3 characteristics they'd probably scratch their head and say "Yeah, but what do I DO?" ;-)
Spiny
For example, when Kitsogatami lost her child, the Buddha did not instruct her in the 4NTs. Instead, the Buddha instructed her to find one mustard seed from a household that had not experienced death. When Kitsogatami realised the universal impermanence, there was nothing to practise.
The 4NTs are like trying to clean the doggy poo from one's feet after stepping in it. Where as the 3C's is seeing clearly the doggy poo therefore not stepping in it.
It wasn't after saying the words that the wheel of the dhamma began. Why have Kondanna in the sutta in the first place? Why does it go:
Buddha spoke the insight
Kondanna observed and evolved
The wheel turned
Nature shook
Buddha knew Kondanna got it.
May all beings experience metta
And how do we comprehend the way things really are in order to let go? By practising sila, samadhi, panna, ie the 8-fold path.
Spiny
i already said, practising sila, samadhi, panna is a way to volitionally let go. this is how the beginner begins
but seeing the 3Cs results in automatic letting go
i already quoted the last tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta, which describes how the mind lets go (viraga), extinguishes (nirodha) craving and relinquishes (vosagga) when seeing the 3Cs
Spiny
Spiny
such misunderstandings demonstrate again why the 4NTs is a beginning teaching
Your point last point here is countering or contradicting what you said earlier. Earlier you said sila, samadhi & panna come first. Now you are saying the 3Cs come first for there to be panna.
"Dukkha (Sanskrit duhkha) or dissatisfaction (or "dis-ease"; also often translated "suffering", though this is somewhat misleading). Nothing found in the physical world or even the psychological realm can bring lasting deep satisfaction. " So yes, a rock is Dukkha.
The word 'dukkha' can be used in three ways: (1) physical pain (dukkha vedana); (2) unsatisfactoriness (dukkha lakkhana); and (3) mental torment (upadana)
The 1NT is about mental torment (upadana) where as the 2C is about unsatisfactoriness.
Regards