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Rebitrth, Karma, Reincarnation you have to belive?
StoicBuddhistAlex
Veteran
Can you skip Rebitrth, Karma, Reincarnation or at least make different interpretation of them. And concentrate on meditation, desire and other very practial parts of buddhism?
I really find a hard time triying to belive in those concepts(Rebitrth, Karma, Reincarnation).
Also im a combination of atheist/agnostic and deist/phanteist
I really find a hard time triying to belive in those concepts(Rebitrth, Karma, Reincarnation).
Also im a combination of atheist/agnostic and deist/phanteist
0
Comments
Thanks bro
I don't really see how you can skip karma from Dharma, as it is the foundational principle that connects three three marks of existence with human experience.
However, its very easy to see karma in purely mundane terms, rather than the merit/magic connotations that some schools interpret it as.
If you can understand the four noble truths without understanding Karma I would say that probably you don't understand them. The same is not true of the various afterlife hypothesis however - you don't need these to make sense of Dharma.
I'll be honest with you, I find this attitude, personally, a little annoying.
I get the impression that this is a reluctance on your part to actually commit to any one specific discipline, so you pick and choose the bits from all of them that you do like, but leave aside, ignore, or disagree with the things you don't like.
So you have a mish-mash mess of different things you're a combination of - but in fact, you are none of them - because you've only taken the bits which attract you.
So to my mind you are NOT atheist/Agnostic deist/pantheist or even Buddhist.
(how can you be atheist/agnostic/deist all at the same time? it doesn't make sense!)
Why you get annoyed by such a little thing, not so buddhist? :dunce:
And yea im still learning about life and all becouse the only think i know is that i know nothing like the good old socrates said.
Mix it with whatever you like, try to find the truth about life without getting stuck in one view. Things might become clearer with practice.
As they say in some zen schools: Zen is 'don't know mind'. That doesn't mean you can never now, but you have to admit you don't know until you actually do.
With metta,
Sabre
This was my first question when I got here. I later learned that this issue is discussed a lot here, perhaps the most repeated topic. The whole idea of rebirth/reincarnation seems to be widely accepted in Buddhism. Some people will say you have to and some will say it doesnt matter. The people who will say you have to is because it is a cornerstone in their Buddhism. So to them it is like asking can you be a Christian without believing in the resurrection?
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with reading the Buddha's teaching and disagreeing. Whenever I read or am told about something that is impossible to know I always disagree.
When I first started reading Buddhism I was very turned off by rebirth (I still am) but I fell in love with the idea of mindfulness, awareness. So my path in Buddhism is a tiny one, I meditate and try to be mindful at all times. In other words, to use a really overused cliche, dont throw out the baby with the bath water.
Spiny
Spiny
It's a lot more fun as a 'tweener !
On reflection, from what I have seen online, it may seem that way to me due to the non believers being in a similar position to other groups which have had to fight against the popular and established view - a strong approach is sometimes the only way to get the message across.
In the end, in my opinion, it's whatever you get from it; people delve into philosophy/religion for a variety of reasons and tend to empathise and keep that which pertain to themselves. You might have trouble grappling with these concepts either because you have no interest or because you believe something else.
There are zealots for sure, I was once one; so hands-up guilty on that.
I still hold pretty unorthodox views on the matter, but they are just opinions, as meaningless and unimportant as everyone else's views on this.
The Key point is that the rebirth debate not relevant to the understanding and practice of Dharma. It is a distraction, not a debate.
Some people extrapolate this Rebirth into being moment to moment we die and are reborn every single instant down to the tiniest instant. Each moment being subtly affected by the moment before it. The person reading this is not the same that reads this. In this view, life is full of countless rebirths.
So yes, I think you can throw out Reincarnation. And if you can't be bother to deal with Rebirth/Karma, then set it aside for now. Perhaps through meditation you will discover that Rebirth/Karma might have something for you to take away from it. (I think there is a quote where the Buddha mentions mentioning certain things over and over because that's what he wants us to concentrate on, the rest is distraction and thus he doesn't preach those things over and over. It'd be awesome if somebody knew what I was talking about.)
You owe it to yourself not to outright deny certain ideas. For example, you can say God exists based on faith evidence or you can say God doesn't exist because no scientific evidence. Or you can say that there is no way to know. By saying you know, you confine your mind. Just like when you give thoughts or emotion a word to become attached to, they lose their integrity. By confinement they can only exist in the preconceived notions and understanding of the word you have attached them to. And now we're getting into some Buddhist principles, but I think you get the point.
There is much to do/undo, so let the brain come back to where it is... its needed more than ever!
especially when you concentrate on meditation
so continue meditation, read Buddhist books/internet writings if possible and listen to Buddhist talk if possible and involve in discussions and ask questions from others and yourself
you will be able to decide about 'rebirth, karma, reincarnation'
Such a belief is not only inaccurate but may inhibit intellectual and spiritual growth. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why children do absorb so much information; because they do not yet think they know everything.
If you are not sure if rebirth is true or not, fine, that is perfectly understandable. However, there is a big difference between saying "I don't know if rebirth is true or not" and saying "Rebirth cannot be known".
Metta,
Guy
I didnt imply that you have to see something to believe it. Of course not. I am implying that there are questions that have no answer, at least as of yet. This includes rebirth, reincarnation, God, gods.... and just because someone tells me they have "seen it" or "experienced it" makes no difference to me. Ive already stated this a few times before that if I take personal experiences as fact I would have to believe in a inter-dimensional bigfoot.
If someone tells me they know Gods' will, I dont buy it. If someone tells me they know past lives, I have the same reaction.
no disrespect.
happy to correct you
there is no evidence superstitions (unverified beliefs) enhance intellectual and spiritual growth and probably more evidence of inhibition
when beings became arahants upon listening to the Buddha, the suttas do not demonstrate the Buddha taught them about reincarnation
the suttas demonstrate the Buddha gave reincarnation teachings to puthujjana
Guy believes it is possible to see past "lives" because Ajahn Brahmavaso said so, despite the Buddha teaching in the scriptures the mind can see its past "dwellings" or "homes"
this is double blind faith: (1) blind faith in reincarnation; and (2) blind faith in AB
Even the reincarnation lover Buddhaghosa taught in his Vissudhimagga "past homes" and "past births" simply means "becoming" (which is an 'asava' or mental outflow)
Even the arahant declared in the SN 12.70: Susima Sutta that they were liberated via wisdom and not by anything to do with "past homes" or "past lives"
but Guy places great faith in Professor Ian Stevenson
May all beings experience metta
Metta,
Guy
i can't read your mind
but the quote you offerred is just a translation. just more uninvestigated faith. for example, in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Buddha said he could live for the "aeon", so the commentators had to shrink it the Pali you are referring to is anekepi saṃvaṭṭakappe anekepi vivaṭṭakappe anekepi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe
vivaṭṭa = "rolling back"; saṃvaṭṭa = "rolling forward"
kappe = "period of time" or "life span"
aneka = many, various; countless, numberless, myriad
i cannot see any Pali word for "world" or "cosmic" (loka)
so the quote is possibly something like: "many periods of time of rolling backwards and rolling forwards, etc"
Keep in mind, this is a non-rebirther's thread. Enter at one's own peril.
As others have mentioned it would be difficult to separate the concept of karma from Buddhism. It is an essential part of the Buddha's teachings - all suffering is the result of past negative actions. I try to integrate my own understanding of karma, which on a basic level is simply a matter of cause and effect. For example if we strike someone, we create the cause for being struck ourselves. It doesn't have to be some far off result, it could be an action that occurs immediately after being performed. We might not experience the results for a long time, but that doesn't mean that we won't have to own up to our actions, in one point or another, at some point. It can also be seen that by repeating behaviors we create karmic patterns that continue to generate similar results.
As far as rebirth and reincarnation I have my own views which I think of more as the link to our ancestors, family, friends, and the entire universe. It's complicated and hard to explain but I don't necessarily see it the same way as other people. I think that's okay, Buddhism is all about finding your own path. Of course you should continue to meditate, study, and learn as much as you can! But there's no law that you have to believe in everything. Even the Buddha himself taught that you must examine the teachings for yourself, contemplate them deeply and come to a true understanding of the concepts.
Spiny
Spiny
Spiny
Yay ! congratulations Spiny ! :clap:
Spiny
Is my understanding clear?
Because, of course, rebirth and karma are taught in Buddhism, so we should investigate the ideas and if they make sense we can 'use' it in our lives (until maybe we find out whether they are true sometime in the future). For example, if you think it is reasonable for there to be some form of karma you might be less inclined to break the precepts.
Many Westerners don't like the idea because they think karma is some form of cosmic retribution or something like that (which comes close to the will of God, an idea many rejected), but it's not like that. It's more like whatever your actions are, you carry them with you in your mind.
But, that's a different subject..
Metta,
Sabre
Also, I think Batchelor was speaking just from his own experience. He apparently didn't run into or look for lamas who were more flexible on that point. His book was about his personal experience, not a scientific study of the field of TB and Zen teachers. But I think that would be a worthwhile study to do.
metta
Imo caution should be used only when people get dogmatic on the issue -"You must believe in rebirth or else you are not a true Buddhist" etc Thankfully such dogmatists are don't seem to come to this site often.
well wishes