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Dear Piper42, If you have the experience, you got to believe. There should be no question about it. But wonder then, if you have experienced God?
Dear Ric, The one who pops up and have a cup of coffee and chat too could be God himself.
, Dr. Jekll and Mr. Hyde exist in this world, Dakini dear. That’s why I find it weird to hear that Westerners do not believe in spirits because of their scientific background. If Science makes one so smart, probably it does not make a person wise. Otherwise, why would a smart scientist invent an atom bomb? He should spend his time trying to turn stones into bread and water into wine.
Dear vinlyn, I suppose Dakini’s use of ‘we’ is not a matter of concern. It is a statement that doesn’t make any real claim. As you have pointed out, Buddhists or not, we can be very illogical in some of the things in life. People are just human. People who believe everything in the Dhamma does not like Buddha advised, investigate. It’s good that you investigate the ‘we’ as used by Dakini. And I think Buddhism is Buddhism. Why has it to be a philosophy or a science?
Footiam, it was I who said Westerners tend not to believe in spirits because of their scientific education, and that those Westerners who do believe in spirits (me, for example), do so for individual reasons. Most Westerners think disparagingly about people who believe in spirits, or the paranormal in general (clairvoyance, etc.). You should have seen the reaction here when someone posted a thread on "magic"! It's considered ignorant or childish to believe in such things. But times are changing. Dakini actually said the same thing you're saying, footiam; that people can go to schools that teach science, but still hold belief in God or whatever they believe. She said people are illogical; you and she are in agreement.
The thing is, Western Europe went through 500 years of terror and burning people alive and other tortures for practicing what at the time was considered "witchcraft". So Westerners, generally speaking (mercifully, there are a few exceptions, as you've undoubtedly noticed on this board) have repressed these abilities and beliefs. They had to, historically, in order to survive. (Many of those who didn't repress, didn't survive.) The result of all that mayhem was the scientific mindset. "Science" was born from the ashes of "pagan" beliefs and "superstition". So now, many Westerners are perhaps a bit over-dedicated to science. In fact, I think we had a thread about science being the new religion, not sure. One reason many Westerners say they come to Buddhism is because of the logic, the compatibility with science (many threads on Buddhism's compatibility with science, too). But this doesn't by any means mean that ALL Westerners reject spirits, God, or the paranormal.
A smart scientist invents the atom bomb because he's paid to royally, by the government. The government does not pay anyone to turn stones into bread or water into wine. Not ever private foundations do that.
Good stuff compassionate warrior. I had never realized that it was due to stuff like the witch hunts enveloped deep in Western roots which may be the main reason why so many Westerners passed down that mind set that the supernatural was impossible, and to always dismiss it and that science or Christianity was the only right way.
It makes sense to me now why a lot of the people I meet who are mostly Westernized act like you're crazy to believe or to take the supernatural seriously. I have always wondered why they get so aggressive or dismiss it so easily. Because I grew up with family who was pretty open minded about it, but at the same time we did not have Western roots. My mom immigrated from another country, and my dad was just one of those rare Westerners that did have personal experiences.
Another factor that might bias the answers from the Western Buddhist community on subjects like magic and ghosts and demons and such is, a vocal segment of the population known as fundamental Christians accuse us of demonology and casting spells when we recite mantras and chant. So some of us try to distinguish what we do from the more mystical practices.
Another factor that might bias the answers from the Western Buddhist community on subjects like magic and ghosts and demons and such is, a vocal segment of the population known as fundamental Christians accuse us of demonology and casting spells when we recite mantras and chant. So some of us try to distinguish what we do from the more mystical practices.
Wow! I had no idea, Cinorjer! Well, I'm one of the ones C_W mentioned, who came to Buddhism because of the inherent logic. But experience taught me later on that there's much more to life than meets the eye. So now I definitely believe in the paranormal, spirits, etc. And I don't see that as a departure from logic. I just think that "science" hasn't caught up with reality yet. As I've said before, clairvoyance, distance healing, communicating with the deceased, etc. are all scientific discoveries waiting to happen. Now belief in "God" is a different matter, to me. But who knows? Maybe I have yet to have the experience that will convince me that there is such a thing. But many, if not most, Western Buddhists choose Buddhism in part due to the absence of belief in God. The deities in Tibetan Buddhism, we're told, are symbols of our own faults, they're not considered to be real. (Though I don't know if the common folk in Tibet see it that way.)
And what is this "we" that's being quoted from one of my posts. I said that 90% of members here don't believe in the paranormal. That leaves plenty of room for Footiam, myself, CW, and others.
Eh, to each his or her own. I regularly get bombarded by the extreme "skeptic" side about how all religions are nothing but superstition, and they think if we could just educate people out of their desire to believe, then wars and injustice and intolerance will end. I don't argue with them. Of course, in my mind, I think of governments that have deliberately tried to stamp out all religion, from the French Revolution to Soviet Union, and how lack of religion made things even worse.
Rituals and chants and beliefs in realms and dieties give shape to our imagination. For instance, my practice of compassion is given a name and form when I look at my statue of Kwan Yin, she who hears the cries of the world. The suffering of the world is no longer an abstract concept. It's real people, suffering today. I guess all I'm trying to say is that, if there isn't a real Kwan Yin, there should be. So I put a cut flower in her hand. Hard to explain.
Good stuff compassionate warrior. I had never realized that it was due to stuff like the witch hunts enveloped deep in Western roots which may be the main reason why so many Westerners passed down that mind set that the supernatural was impossible, and to always dismiss it and that science or Christianity was the only right way.
It makes sense to me now why a lot of the people I meet who are mostly Westernized act like you're crazy to believe or to take the supernatural seriously.
Yeah, the difference between Eastern Europe (which had no witch hunts, no Inquisition, none of that stuff) and West is like black and white. In Eastern Europe, as in Asia, it's pretty normal to visit the clairvoyant, or a hands-on healer.healers are You can experience Europe the way it used to be, if you're lucky. In fact, in Poland healers are registered practitioners that assist in hospitals to speed healing after surgery. But now and then I've run into people of West European heritage whose family lineage preserved otherwise lost healing practices and beliefs.
Thanks for the explanation. It’s very enlightening. I suppose people can have different views but can still all be right. It is a matter of which angle you are looking at. Thus, you can be very pagan and survive and be very scientific and die, in a case like if you say the sun is the centre of the universe and everyone else thinks the earth is.
A smart scientist is not necessarily caring then. The government should pay people to turn stones into bread.
Dear Mr Serenity, Having a mindset like that probably suggests that the mind is either not flexible or that it is flexible enough to be manipulated. Buddha said the mind is the forerunner of all things.
Dear Cinorjer, It looks like it’s those who are vocals always call the shots. It needs not be the majority. The majority is always silent and people can just see a saint tied to a stake to be burnt.
Hey Dakini, There are things that you say that I can really relate to, like Science not having caught up with reality. At one time, science must have said that atom is the smallest particle- that is when they haven’t the capability to detect the electron or proton. In the same way, if Science hasn’t proven the existence of God, that doesn’t mean He does not exist. I am surprised to hear that Westerners are attracted to Buddhism because of the absence of belief in God. I thought Buddha did not reject the existence of God but he did not put him up in a pedestal, that’s all. Perhaps, there may be some Gods lurking somewhere but they are by no means dictators, so much so that they dictate the lives of humans. A Christian friend of mine says that God is all around you. You can feel Him like you can feel the electricity if you touch a live wire and failing to do that, you can just switch on the lamp or something, and there you are, you prove the existence of electricity just like miracles are said to prove the existence of God. Cute?
Dear Cinorjer again, Rituals and chants and beliefs in realms and deities perhaps keep the mind focus. It’s like tools, something like a cane for a blind man which isn’t really bad.
Thanks again compassionate_warrior for the information and Eastern and Western Europe. Didn’t know that they have this difference. Things like Tarots card, crystal ball gazing must be from that part of the world?
A smart scientist is not necessarily caring then. The government should pay people to turn stones into bread.
I don't think you'll get any argument from us on that point! ^_^ .
A Christian friend of mine says that God is all around you. You can feel Him like you can feel the electricity if you touch a live wire
You've missed my posts where I posit that God is a giant ball of Light. And I think that life is much more electromagnetic by nature than people suspect. Do you believe in healers, footiam? Hands-on healing? It's electromagnetic. But for some people, there seems to be a spiritual component (the healing happens as a result of prayer, in gifted individuals) that I haven't been able to explain. Yet.
Thanks again compassionate_warrior for the information and Eastern and Western Europe. Didn’t know that they have this difference. Things like Tarots card, crystal ball gazing must be from that part of the world?
That's a great question. I'll look into it. In Siberia, the healers use a jar of water to gaze into, because there are no crystal balls available. But actually, using Tarot cards is very similar. The cards function more as a focus for the person's mind, like the jar of water. It's not so much what's in the cards. It's how the seer interprets the cards, based on his/her special vision. I've seen an almost completely blind person "read" cards, and "see" things he couldn't have possibly known about any other way.
Dear compassionate_warrior, It is not the arguments that matters but the thought. As it is, we all have different opinions but it is okay. We are all right in our own way, and wrong too in another way. It is more importable we can live with it. And you do really make me wonder if a giant ball can be all compassionate and all knowing. And I would like to believe in Healers,too; not that I have seen one but when one is in pain and desperate, there should not no harm trying to seek one.There are lots of surprises in this world and of them is that the impossible is possible. I also like to thank you for the information on the practice in Siberia. It is something new to me but do you think if you don't have a crystal ball, you can not just use a jar of water or cards to focus on but all other things too. Perhaps, that's the function of all those statues in the temple which tend to make people think that Buddhists and Taoists are idol worshippers. I haven't heard of a blind man who reads cards but I have read about a blind man who paints. As for what's next, well, today, I am going to stare at a jar of water! Ha! Ha!
Eh, to each his or her own.I think of governments that have deliberately tried to stamp out all religion, from the French Revolution to Soviet Union, and how lack of religion made things even worse.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that, if there isn't a real Kwan Yin, there should be. So I put a cut flower in her hand. Hard to explain.
That's nice, Cinorjer, about your Kwan Yin practice. re; trying to eliminate religion: humanity seems to have a need for spirituality in some form. Or is this a peculiarly American perspective? My impression is that many European countries are much more secular, and don't have beliefs in the paranormal. Western Europe, that is.
This is an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it. There is a lot of folklore in Native American culture that involves spirits. In the Northwest, there was fear of spirits. They buried their dead in remote places far from their homes. A common belief among most of the nations is that a spirit was doomed to walk the earth if they were not buried properly or had their graves desecrated. A spirit could only move on if it was at peace.
The native Americans had a strong sense of good and evil, but not in the way that the Christians did. Destructive spirits were feared, but it was understood that they were needed to keep things in balance. Without negative, there could be no positive.
There is also a belief in animal spirit guides or totem animals. People felt a connection with these spirits and they reflected aspects of the person's nature. Animal spirits had a connection to the Great Spirit and could bring messages if you listened. This relationship was honored.
I've been told that because the Native Americans were so connected to nature, they often became spirit guides to the living.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Dear Dakini, It is a wonder why American could be different from the Europeans. I have always thought that Americans come from Europe.
americans come from all over. my father's side hails from russia, my mother's from sweden. my girlfriend's roots are technically from canada, but the term is still "native american." and yet, we are both american. in school, we learned that america was "the melting pot," meaning where all cultures come and merge. i believe i heard that hispanic is also becoming the largest "minority" in america. why would you think that we would resemble europe? especially when we've been estranged from our 'mother land' of great britain for over 200 years now.
americans come from all over. my father's side hails from russia, my mother's from sweden. my girlfriend's roots are technically from canada, but the term is still "native american." and yet, we are both american. in school, we learned that america was "the melting pot," meaning where all cultures come and merge. i believe i heard that hispanic is also becoming the largest "minority" in america. why would you think that we would resemble europe? especially when we've been estranged from our 'mother land' of great britain for over 200 years now.
Not to mention the fact that Puritanism was a stronger influence here, and possibly lasted longer than in Europe. I think the Puritans were run out of parts of Europe and came to the "New World" for the opportunity to practice their religion freely. So they brought their religion, and continued the persecution and witch trials they'd been doing in Europe. This has had a profound influence on the national character in the US, even though people don't want to admit it.
I think it's a good question Dakini raised: does humanity have an innate need for spirituality? Or can modern man do without spirituality?
Dear kayte, Some Asian beliefs are identical to the Native American Indians belief then, like spirit roaming the earth if not properly buried. Non-native Americans are not drawn into believing I suppose, considering that they go to school with secular education. And I am also surprised to hear about animal spirits. Never thought or heard about animal having spirits too. Since man can have spirits, why not animals, yes?
Dear zombiegirl, That’s because if they have come from Europe, they would have brought their culture and habits from there. And I thought the cultures that were in the melting pot there were European, definitely not Asians, not even Africans. Over here, where I live there are Indians from India who still speak and practise their language and culture too and Chinese from China who still speak and practise their language and culture. But then of course, maybe the original Americans left their homelands because of the differences in thoughts in the first place.
Dear compassionate_warrior, You remind me of the Klu Klux Klan, dear. They are not around anymore, are they?
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
edited June 2011
Dear zombiegirl, That’s because if they have come from Europe, they would have brought their culture and habits from there. And I thought the cultures that were in the melting pot there were European, definitely not Asians, not even Africans. Over here, where I live there are Indians from India who still speak and practise their language and culture too and Chinese from China who still speak and practise their language and culture. But then of course, maybe the original Americans left their homelands because of the differences in thoughts in the first place.
of course the "melting pot" includes more than just europeans. i'm sure there are those that still speak a foreign language and practice the customs of their ancestors, but most americans i know are pretty removed from that, myself included. for example, i may be swedish/russian, but i can speak only a few words of swedish. i know next to nothing about my russian heritage because my grandmother was estranged from her family and refused to speak about it. honestly, the only cultural tie i feel is through food. as many of my friends have pointed out, it's not normal to eat so many different types of fish from a jar, lol. i think i'm a pretty typical american in that sense, but of course, there are those that might feel differently.
also, i know you were asking c_w, but the KKK is definitely very much alive in america.
I think it's a good question Dakini raised: does humanity have an innate need for spirituality? Or can modern man do without spirituality?
i believe that humanity needs some sort of spirituality. if not, then it wouldn't make sense that nearly every group of people from the dawn of time have had some sort of spirituality, or myths, or legends. spirituality answers the most basic human questions regarding our origin and death. the answer, however, depends on who you ask. i think i would be more surprised if someone told me about a group of people who literally had no folk lore or religion of any sort.
i don't know about the second question. do you think you could do without spirituality? i'm not sure i could.
I asked, because I grew up around people who weren't religious, and they were contented enough. Most people I know don't have a spiritual tradition. But the diversity of spiritual traditions globally would indicate that many people do have a need for spirituality.
Dear compassionate_warrior, You remind me of the Klu Klux Klan, dear. They are not around anymore, are they?
I have no idea what you're talking about, footiam. But ask any Native American--they'll tell you all about modern-day Puritanism in America.
Dear Dakini, It is a wonder why American could be different from the Europeans. I have always thought that Americans come from Europe.
Sorry I missed this, footiam. I haven't been keeping up with this thread. But CW covered the history pretty well. The US has evolved its own national character. There's chatter around Europe about how religious Americans are (the takeover of the Federal Congress by a conservative Christian coalition during Clinton didn't help dispel this image), although when I grew up, science was stressed, and there were very few religious people in my neighborhood, in my family, or anywhere in my life. But maybe that's due to regional variations. (The "Bible Belt" has always been there, in the South and Midwest.) And Europeans are always fussing about American modern-day Puritanism. (The Clinton-Lewinsky fiasco also didn't help dispel that image.) So yes, Americans are different from Europeans, in a broad, generalized sort of way. Canadian society and American society are very different, for that matter.
Dear kayte, Some Asian beliefs are identical to the Native American Indians belief then, like spirit roaming the earth if not properly buried. Non-native Americans are not drawn into believing I suppose, considering that they go to school with secular education. And I am also surprised to hear about animal spirits. Never thought or heard about animal having spirits too. Since man can have spirits, why not animals, yes?
Hi footiam- I think other cultures also have some form animal spirits in their culture.
Here's a few site that might be of interest to you:
Dear compassionate_warrior, You remind me of the Klu Klux Klan, dear. They are not around anymore, are they?
I know that you directed this at CW, but I don't understand your statement. Do you know what the KKK is? Unfortunately they are still active in some parts of the US. I don't see how this relates to CW's comment about the Puritans.
Thanks dear zombiegirl for the information. It is very enlightening. It is like opening a whole new world for me. Most of the American things I know are from books or movies. And that could be very misleading. For example, you don’t see much about the Red Indians in TV and in old cowboy movies, they are always crook. Anyway, I am not sure if all that changes that Europeans and all the other people went through and become Americans is good or bad. Some people think of having your original culture and language as having your roots. It tends to give you a sense of belonging. What do you say?
And about the kkk, do the present kkk still wear those horrible hoods?
And as for spirtituality, maybe it calms down the mind. Give some kind of peace.
Dear compassionate_warrior, Could it be that you don’t have to be religious to be spiritual? As for the kkk, Zombiegirl has filled me in.
Dear Dakini, In short, then, we could say that the people that settled in America has evolved. It should be understandable considering that even in a little country, the people in the north could be very different from the people in the south. And the Americans have been in America for a long time now.
Dear kayte, Thanks for the links. Will check that out. As for the kkk and Puritans, maybe, I don’t understand much about the Puritans, not even the kkk. At that moment, I was just thinking both seems to be something from the past. Tell me more about Puritans and kkk, won’t you?
Dear kayte, Thanks for the links. Will check that out. As for the kkk and Puritans, maybe, I don’t understand much about the Puritans, not even the kkk. At that moment, I was just thinking both seems to be something from the past. Tell me more about Puritans and kkk, won’t you?
You are welcome. I hope that you enjoy learning about animal spirits.
I'll try to explain the Puritans and the KKK in the simplest terms, to avoid confusion.
The Puritans broke away from the main church and had disdain for what they considered frivolous behavior (holidays and celebrations)and valued their civic freedoms. They were united in their strict religious beliefs. This belief system was biased against people outside of their group. The Puritans were famous for the Salem witch trials and people were executed.
The KKK came into existence after the Civil War out of anger and hatred. Several young men decided to start a social club and set up rules, ceremonies, oaths, ranks, etc. It turned violent and specifically targeted the newly freed black slaves. They became a deadly group and gained influence in the South for a period of time.
If you would like some links on the history of these two groups let me know.
Dear kayte, Thanks for the links. Will check that out. As for the kkk and Puritans, maybe, I don’t understand much about the Puritans, not even the kkk. At that moment, I was just thinking both seems to be something from the past. Tell me more about Puritans and kkk, won’t you?
You are welcome. I hope that you enjoy learning about animal spirits.
I'll try to explain the Puritans and the KKK in the simplest terms, to avoid confusion.
The Puritans broke away from the main church and had disdain for what they considered frivolous behavior (holidays and celebrations)and valued their civic freedoms. They were united in their strict religious beliefs. This belief system was biased against people outside of their group. The Puritans were famous for the Salem witch trials and people were executed.
The KKK came into existence after the Civil War out of anger and hatred. Several young men decided to start a social club and set up rules, ceremonies, oaths, ranks, etc. It turned violent and specifically targeted the newly freed black slaves. They became a deadly group and gained influence in the South for a period of time.
If you would like some links on the history of these two groups let me know.
footiam- I only questioned you about this because telling someone that they sound or act like the KKK can be very offensive to people. I'm sure that was not your intention.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Thanks dear zombiegirl for the information. It is very enlightening. It is like opening a whole new world for me. Most of the American things I know are from books or movies. And that could be very misleading. For example, you don’t see much about the Red Indians in TV and in old cowboy movies, they are always crook. Anyway, I am not sure if all that changes that Europeans and all the other people went through and become Americans is good or bad. Some people think of having your original culture and language as having your roots. It tends to give you a sense of belonging. What do you say?
And about the kkk, do the present kkk still wear those horrible hoods?
np, footiam. where are you from, btw?
well, i think for some people their heritage is a bigger deal than others. to be honest, i don't feel like i have much of one at all and i've always been slightly jealous of people who knew more about their roots. most americans are just "american" and don't really talk about heritage, unless it's obvious. for example, i've known my best friend for 6 years and i was just thinking to myself, "i have no idea what his heritage is." the exception to this rule seems to be through food, however. when i think of my friends/roommates/acquaintances that have made me aware of their heritage, it is almost always through food. one of my old roommates was italian-american and she was a fantastic cook, making recipes handed down to her through her mother. to be honest, all that being swedish means to me is that we sometimes eat nasty hard bread (knackebrod) with pickled herring. oh, and we drink A LOT of coffee. but honestly, that's it. i think a good portion of americans are like me. we only really discuss our heritage when someone asks, otherwise, it's pretty much a non-issue. for me, on both sides of my family, we immigrated to the US 3 generations ago. i think that's long enough to lose most of what many would call "heritage" to most americans, being "american" is more important than "my great-grandparents came here from ____"
as far as the KKK, i honestly don't know about the hoods. i just saw a documentary not too long ago about how they are still alive and kicking. wikipedia has more info about them:
Dear kayte, Thanks! Your explanation about the Puritans and kkk were very clear. I have seen TV series called Salem’s lots or something like that but just thought that it is just some fancy story. Tell me more about this witch hunt, won’t you like you told of the Puritans and kkk. No, I have never ever been intentionally offensive to anyone in my life unless they ask for it. When I said I was reminded of the kkk, it is not about the person, it’s more about the statement. But checking back my post, ‘you reminded me of the kkk’, it really could mean the person. That’s terrible, isn’t it ? – how words can create havocs!
Dear zombiegirl, I am from a mulitcultural country - Malaysia. To most people here, I think heritage is a big thing. The Chinese here still speak Chinese and practise the old customs that they inherit from their forefathers who came from China. Just recently, we celebrate the Duan Wu Jie, a festival where we make special food of glutinous rice wrapped in bambboo leaves called zong zi. Most of the Chinese here are born here. And we still believe in spirits. People who passed away are supposed to return on the seventh day and we still hear of people telling stories of their loved one coming back. No personal experience though.
Hi footiam- I'm glad that you have an interest in our history. The Salem of the Puritans is very different than your reference to Salem's Lot which is a fictional work by Stephen King.
It was a dark time in New England's history. Here are some links for you to read. I don't know if the movie, "Three Sovereigns for Sarah" is still available, but it is a very good depiction of that period.
The Puritan phase in the US was similar to the persecution I described that went on in Europe. But what happened, was that the Puritans were expelled from Europe, and so they came to the New World, and continued the repression of paranormal gifts, burning of witches, and so forth. They had a very strict morality that also embedded itself in the national psyche, in some ways, for generations. Although as Zombiegirl points out, not all Americans are inheritors of that mentality, because so many Americans come from outside the "Puritan" history, the Anglo-Germanic heritage. The Victorianism of the 1800's tended to reinforce any surviving Puritan tendencies in the US, IMO. I think it was the counter-culture movement of the 1960's that achieved a lot in changing the dominant society's attitudes. But monogamy is still the ideal in the US, whereas it doesn't seem to be in parts of Europe, or at least, that's what we hear.
@kayte I discovered recently that the Puritans weren't accepted in all parts of New England. I found a record of a distant ancestor of mine who was run out of the Connecticut community where he'd settled, for being a Puritan.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
The Puritan phase in the US was similar to the persecution I described that went on in Europe. But what happened, was that the Puritans were expelled from Europe, and so they came to the New World, and continued the repression of paranormal gifts, burning of witches, and so forth. They had a very strict morality that also embedded itself in the national psyche, in some ways, for generations. Although as Zombiegirl points out, not all Americans are inheritors of that mentality, because so many Americans come from outside the "Puritan" history, the Anglo-Germanic heritage. The Victorianism of the 1800's tended to reinforce any surviving Puritan tendencies in the US, IMO. I think it was the counter-culture movement of the 1960's that achieved a lot in changing the dominant society's attitudes. But monogamy is still the ideal in the US, whereas it doesn't seem to be in parts of Europe, or at least, that's what we hear.
hah, now even I'M learning more about america. interesting post. i honestly never thought about our mentalities as a result of the puritans, but it makes a lot of sense. maybe someday we will be able to remove the conservative stick of the puritans from our a**es.
@kayte I discovered recently that the Puritans weren't accepted in all parts of New England. I found a record of a distant ancestor of mine who was run out of the Connecticut community where he'd settled, for being a Puritan.
That's probably because some of the Connecticut settlers were familiar with the Puritan's special qualities and wanted to protect themselves.
I'm learning more, too. Don't get your hopes up of seeing the Puritanical roots gone anytime soon. These types just change their names and continue to try forcing their beliefs on the rest of us.
Thanks kayte for the links and information! And I suppose your right. There will always be Puritans - not just in America, elsewhere too, in various forms.
Dear compassionate_warrior, The record of your distant ancestor should be saved for the museum. It is valuable and thanks for the information that you furnished.
Dear zombiegirl, I suppose that’s why we have to learn history. It explains the present.
I really am not sure. I know many people who experience things, and I have a close friend and her fiance' who are paranormal investigators in CO. They have very interesting photos and video to share. I'm open to the idea that it's possible. But I don't think it's as common as it sounds from all the tv programs and books and such, because I do think a lot of it (not all of it) is just people's minds playing tricks on them.
I do not believe in spirits, ghosts, gods or the afterlife. How can I if I have no experience of such things? Does Buddhism not teach us not to believe in something unless we can test it for ourselves and find it to be true? This is the approach I have always taken to life and is of course only my opinion.
I do not believe in spirits, ghosts, gods or the afterlife. How can I if I have no experience of such things? Does Buddhism not teach us not to believe in something unless we can test it for ourselves and find it to be true? This is the approach I have always taken to life and is of course only my opinion.
I like your opinion. Now, I am wondering if there is a way to test the existence of spirits, ghosts, gods or whatever.
I'm agnostic is basically everything regarding life when it comes to these things lol.. I cannot prove, nor disprove the existence of spirits or any other "invisible" beings as they say in the karinaya metta sutta.
so I basically don't spent an iota of waking moments caring about it either way, except when I do Metta.
I am absolutely firmly planted "on the fence" as far as 'spirits' and ghosts are concerned... Do I believe once one dies there is blackness, nothing, a empty void on the other side? Nope. I choose not to believe that. I believe there's Something else going on, on the other side. I believe our consciousness somehow merges with the consciousness of all other life or the Universe - in some way.
But, do I believe we retain some sort of human-like form of gaseous 'spiritual' material floating about in some other plane of existence, communicating with, protecting, or scaring the bejeezus out of people here in this earthly realm? Hmmm... leaning heavily towards Nope on that one as well.
Do I believe in reincarnation? Yes, actually I do. Perhaps not entirely the Buddhist idea of reincarnation; but yes. However, I willingly and humbly admit that this is strictly a 'spiritual' belief; faith, if you will. Not based in any sort of science or technological proof or knowledge.
Someone mentioned "magic" and Witchcraft in comments several posts back. This is an area I feel that I've experienced quite a bit of myself, and have studied, read about it, and knew/spoken to many many others who've also been involved in magic and witchcraft.... and it's funny, because I am MUCH more skeptical - no, dismissive of it now, than I ever was in the past.
As closed minded as this may sound, people who believe they can control their physical surroundings, the weather (as in storms, tornadoes, lightning bolts, etc), and/or the consciousness and will of other people, (beyond ordinary emotional, verbal or subliminal manipulations that anyone can do), by way of waving a wand, chanting some spells, or lighting candles and sticking pins in dolls, are completely deluded.
The reason I say this is not a closed minded stance, is because I've come to this conclusion after more than 30 years of experience and delving into magic and witchcraft and its peripheral beliefs myself. Conclusion: IMO It is all self-delusion.
Sorry this is a bit long, but it's one of my areas of expertise and might be interesting to some.
Some scholars believe that Native American ideas on spirits, or the soul, predate current religious ideas. Since the indigenous population migrated to the continent 50k years ago, and maintained an uninterrupted oral tradition until European contact, and, although beliefs vary amongst the tribes, they all share a similar cosmology. It was mentioned that Native American beliefs are similar to Asian beliefs, but there are some interesting unique distinctions. I think some of it is actually quite Buddhist.
The word, “religion,” does not exist in Native American languages neither does the concept of religion as the Western world understands it. For Native Americans, one does not commit to and act in accordance to a particular religion – one simply lives according to accepted traditions and values. Religious concepts are a part of the natural way of life. This includes not just the life we live in this world, but also the one we live in death. There is no distinction.
Native Americans’ concept of the soul is similar to Hindus, Buddhists and Jains, where the soul is pre-existent and continues to exist after death as opposed to the Judeo-Christian traditional linear idea of the soul living out one lifetime and is done. Native Americans’ soul also differs from the Western Cartesian model, defined by the distinct separation of mind and body; however, the inseparability extends beyond Eastern religious belief, (i.e. Hindus,) which submit to cyclical eschatological cosmologies. For Native Americans, metaphysically, the interconnectedness with humans and animals, the earth, extends further into the spirit world, implies the present’s existing connection with the past and future. The natural and supernatural are not separate – all are one. Therefore those who have died, remain a part of this world. Death is only a transformation, not an ending. There is no cycle (like Hindu Maya Yugas). For Native Americans, the “eternal return” of cyclical Time does not exist. There is only an eternal interconnectedness between the natural and supernatural. Time just “is.” The Sioux believe the goal of reincarnation is to continue the chain of life with eternally continuous reincarnation, ultimately being reborn into one’s family. There is no concept of breaking out of the chain of reincarnation. No exiting samsara into enlightenment for Native Americans.
Everything is in essence a part of the Wakan Tanka (Great Mystery/Spirit), a part of existence in its wholeness. Our human nature, or soul, is simply bestowed upon us, by the Wakan Tanka, as a part of the greater spirit nature.
Now, for example, the Sioux, believe humans are comprised of fours souls: niya (or woniya), nagi, nagila, and the sicun. The niya, or “life breath” is what ties us to this life—it is our very breath. The nagi, is what one stereotypically defines as “ghost,” representing the personality of the individual, and when separated from its body, it could become malevolent. The nagila is referred to as the “little ghost.” From a quantum physics level, everything is in constant motion, in a state of flux. The nagila is that energy force common to all - or for Buddhists the "energy" of impermanence. The sicun is the sacred power one receives through interaction with the supernatural.
For the Sioux, one’s personal spiritual goal is to achieve the awareness of the unity of the four souls. One must transcend the notion of the separation of the souls to discover the wholeness of all things.
The unique Sioux tradition to “keep the ghost” assists the nagi, which upon death separates from the three other souls, in their process to follow the route of reincarnation and four-soul unification. After a person dies, a family is expected to continue to acknowledge the existence of the nagi, in their lives and treat the ghost with respect, but also encourage the nagi to move on towards reincarnation. Attachments for the Sioux ghost can be detrimental, as in Buddhist philosophy, attachments in life and death (per the Bardo) prevents one to move on towards enlightenment. The Sioux ghost, as it wanders in the Land of the Dead, yearns for things of the past, but this could prevent the ghost from continuing with its process. To assist the nagi, the family of the deceased performs the “give away” ritual, where they host a huge for the community and literally give away every object (clothing, tools, combs, weapons, etc) the deceased owned. If the ghost returns to the family residence, its personal objects are not there to create an attachment to the world of the living. If a ghost does find attachments, they will linger in the world of the living and bring bad luck to the family.
However, if a ghost is not properly “kept,” then it can create mischief, cause illnesses, or entice the living to join them or take on more malicious characteristics. The nagi also suffers. If the nagi spends too much time wandering in the limbo of the land of the living, it becomes fragmented and can eventually die off.
Personally, thier ideas of the soul (except for their reincarnation belief) seems logical to me in a Buddhist sense.
Aren't all spiritual beliefs connected in some way? I perhaps see more similiarities than differences. (And there are plenty of published academic articles debating/discussing the connections.) (An interesting geneological footnote is that recent DNA testing shows that current Indian Americans are related to a rare tribe in the Gobi desert, establishing where they must have migrated from.) Soul and consciousness are interchangeable in the Native American sense. They don't have the Judeo-Christian sense of the soul, and i am not using the term "soul" in that regard. The idea of "soul" is metaphorical. The description of the Sioux soul is part of the mythology to teach one that if one does not unify oneself with existence, then they are fragmented, unenlightened. There really isn't a "seperate" soul in the Cartesian sense - nor are there really "four souls" (again a mythology to teach one that through ritual and through seeing that one exists in death as in life - just a way to describe in human terms for human understanding). The Sioux spiritual goal is to transcend the perceived seperateness (of Self, from death, from existence, and even in the Christian sense from God, or the Great Spirit) and enter into the singleness and oneness of consciousness.
Yes, man does tend to find the differences more easily than he sees the similarities. But, including on this site, I see people thinking that a particular film or song, etc. has a Buddhist message when none is intended.
Again, I'm not saying there is no connection, but before believing there is, I'd like to see some evidence.
In their own way, Native American mythology is pretty much describing Anatta ( which in regards to the topic of whether Buddhists believe in spirits, anatta, negates the idea os spirits). Vinlyn, are you asking me to provide links to academic articles discussing these possible connections? I never claimed hard evidence - only what some scholars are suggesting. I am not trying to prove anything - only provide some additional information and something to think about since others mentioned Native American spirits.
Everything I perceive is what I want to see rather than what is really there - that is what makes me human. All truth is subjective. I was under the impression it is ok to throw out ideas, food for thought and such on this site. I am just exploring the possibilities. Sure, this is my personal opinion, and others have a similar opinion based as exhibited in academic works I have encountered that provided ideas on connections:
Mandalas and Mesoamerican Pecked Circles [and Comments and Reply] Author(s): Victor N. Mansfield, John B. Carlson, Gabriella Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi, H. J. Eysenck, Uma Charan Mohanty, Balaji Mundkur and Karl A. Wipf Reviewed work(s): Source: Current Anthropology, Vol. 22, No. 3 (Jun., 1981), pp. 269-284 Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological Research Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2742202
Varner, Gary R. Ghosts, Spirits & the Afterlife in Native American Folklore and Religion. North Carolina: Lulu Press, 2010. Print.
Jefferson, Warren. Reincarnation Beliefs of Northern American Indians. Soul Journeys, Metamorphoses and Near-Death Experiences. Tennessee: Native Voices, 2008. Print.
Comments
If you have the experience, you got to believe. There should be no question about it. But wonder then, if you have experienced God?
Dear Ric,
The one who pops up and have a cup of coffee and chat too could be God himself.
,
Dr. Jekll and Mr. Hyde exist in this world, Dakini dear. That’s why I find it weird to hear that Westerners do not believe in spirits because of their scientific background. If Science makes one so smart, probably it does not make a person wise. Otherwise, why would a smart scientist invent an atom bomb? He should spend his time trying to turn stones into bread and water into wine.
Dear vinlyn,
I suppose Dakini’s use of ‘we’ is not a matter of concern. It is a statement that doesn’t make any real claim. As you have pointed out, Buddhists or not, we can be very illogical in some of the things in life. People are just human. People who believe everything in the Dhamma does not like Buddha advised, investigate. It’s good that you investigate the ‘we’ as used by Dakini. And I think Buddhism is Buddhism. Why has it to be a philosophy or a science?
The thing is, Western Europe went through 500 years of terror and burning people alive and other tortures for practicing what at the time was considered "witchcraft". So Westerners, generally speaking (mercifully, there are a few exceptions, as you've undoubtedly noticed on this board) have repressed these abilities and beliefs. They had to, historically, in order to survive. (Many of those who didn't repress, didn't survive.) The result of all that mayhem was the scientific mindset. "Science" was born from the ashes of "pagan" beliefs and "superstition". So now, many Westerners are perhaps a bit over-dedicated to science. In fact, I think we had a thread about science being the new religion, not sure. One reason many Westerners say they come to Buddhism is because of the logic, the compatibility with science (many threads on Buddhism's compatibility with science, too). But this doesn't by any means mean that ALL Westerners reject spirits, God, or the paranormal.
A smart scientist invents the atom bomb because he's paid to royally, by the government. The government does not pay anyone to turn stones into bread or water into wine. Not ever private foundations do that.
I had never realized that it was due to stuff like the witch hunts enveloped deep in Western roots which may be the main reason why so many Westerners passed down that mind set that the supernatural was impossible, and to always dismiss it and that science or Christianity was the only right way.
It makes sense to me now why a lot of the people I meet who are mostly Westernized act like you're crazy to believe or to take the supernatural seriously. I have always wondered why they get so aggressive or dismiss it so easily. Because I grew up with family who was pretty open minded about it, but at the same time we did not have Western roots. My mom immigrated from another country, and my dad was just one of those rare Westerners that did have personal experiences.
And what is this "we" that's being quoted from one of my posts. I said that 90% of members here don't believe in the paranormal. That leaves plenty of room for Footiam, myself, CW, and others.
Rituals and chants and beliefs in realms and dieties give shape to our imagination. For instance, my practice of compassion is given a name and form when I look at my statue of Kwan Yin, she who hears the cries of the world. The suffering of the world is no longer an abstract concept. It's real people, suffering today. I guess all I'm trying to say is that, if there isn't a real Kwan Yin, there should be. So I put a cut flower in her hand. Hard to explain.
Thanks for the explanation. It’s very enlightening. I suppose people can have different views but can still all be right. It is a matter of which angle you are looking at. Thus, you can be very pagan and survive and be very scientific and die, in a case like if you say the sun is the centre of the universe and everyone else thinks the earth is.
A smart scientist is not necessarily caring then. The government should pay people to turn stones into bread.
Dear Mr Serenity,
Having a mindset like that probably suggests that the mind is either not flexible or that it is flexible enough to be manipulated. Buddha said the mind is the forerunner of all things.
Dear Cinorjer,
It looks like it’s those who are vocals always call the shots. It needs not be the majority. The majority is always silent and people can just see a saint tied to a stake to be burnt.
Hey Dakini,
There are things that you say that I can really relate to, like Science not having caught up with reality. At one time, science must have said that atom is the smallest particle- that is when they haven’t the capability to detect the electron or proton. In the same way, if Science hasn’t proven the existence of God, that doesn’t mean He does not exist. I am surprised to hear that Westerners are attracted to Buddhism because of the absence of belief in God. I thought Buddha did not reject the existence of God but he did not put him up in a pedestal, that’s all. Perhaps, there may be some Gods lurking somewhere but they are by no means dictators, so much so that they dictate the lives of humans. A Christian friend of mine says that God is all around you. You can feel Him like you can feel the electricity if you touch a live wire and failing to do that, you can just switch on the lamp or something, and there you are, you prove the existence of electricity just like miracles are said to prove the existence of God. Cute?
Dear Cinorjer again,
Rituals and chants and beliefs in realms and deities perhaps keep the mind focus. It’s like tools, something like a cane for a blind man which isn’t really bad.
Thanks again compassionate_warrior for the information and Eastern and Western Europe. Didn’t know that they have this difference. Things like Tarots card, crystal ball gazing must be from that part of the world?
. You've missed my posts where I posit that God is a giant ball of Light. And I think that life is much more electromagnetic by nature than people suspect. Do you believe in healers, footiam? Hands-on healing? It's electromagnetic. But for some people, there seems to be a spiritual component (the healing happens as a result of prayer, in gifted individuals) that I haven't been able to explain. Yet.
Thanks for a great topic, footiam. What's next?
It is not the arguments that matters but the thought. As it is, we all have different opinions but it is okay. We are all right in our own way, and wrong too in another way. It is more importable we can live with it.
And you do really make me wonder if a giant ball can be all compassionate and all knowing. And I would like to believe in Healers,too; not that I have seen one but when one is in pain and desperate, there should not no harm trying to seek one.There are lots of surprises in this world and of them is that the impossible is possible.
I also like to thank you for the information on the practice in Siberia. It is something new to me but do you think if you don't have a crystal ball, you can not just use a jar of water or cards to focus on but all other things too. Perhaps, that's the function of all those statues in the temple which tend to make people think that Buddhists and Taoists are idol worshippers. I haven't heard of a blind man who reads cards but I have read about a blind man who paints. As for what's next, well, today, I am going to stare at a jar of water! Ha! Ha!
re; trying to eliminate religion: humanity seems to have a need for spirituality in some form. Or is this a peculiarly American perspective? My impression is that many European countries are much more secular, and don't have beliefs in the paranormal. Western Europe, that is.
It is a wonder why American could be different from the Europeans. I have always thought that Americans come from Europe.
The native Americans had a strong sense of good and evil, but not in the way that the Christians did. Destructive spirits were feared, but it was understood that they were needed to keep things in balance. Without negative, there could be no positive.
There is also a belief in animal spirit guides or totem animals. People felt a connection with these spirits and they reflected aspects of the person's nature. Animal spirits had a connection to the Great Spirit and could bring messages if you listened. This relationship was honored.
I've been told that because the Native Americans were so connected to nature, they often became spirit guides to the living.
I think it's a good question Dakini raised: does humanity have an innate need for spirituality? Or can modern man do without spirituality?
Some Asian beliefs are identical to the Native American Indians belief then, like spirit roaming the earth if not properly buried. Non-native Americans are not drawn into believing I suppose, considering that they go to school with secular education. And I am also surprised to hear about animal spirits. Never thought or heard about animal having spirits too. Since man can have spirits, why not animals, yes?
Dear zombiegirl,
That’s because if they have come from Europe, they would have brought their culture and habits from there. And I thought the cultures that were in the melting pot there were European, definitely not Asians, not even Africans. Over here, where I live there are Indians from India who still speak and practise their language and culture too and Chinese from China who still speak and practise their language and culture. But then of course, maybe the original Americans left their homelands because of the differences in thoughts in the first place.
Dear compassionate_warrior,
You remind me of the Klu Klux Klan, dear. They are not around anymore, are they?
also, i know you were asking c_w, but the KKK is definitely very much alive in america. i believe that humanity needs some sort of spirituality. if not, then it wouldn't make sense that nearly every group of people from the dawn of time have had some sort of spirituality, or myths, or legends. spirituality answers the most basic human questions regarding our origin and death. the answer, however, depends on who you ask.
i think i would be more surprised if someone told me about a group of people who literally had no folk lore or religion of any sort.
i don't know about the second question. do you think you could do without spirituality? i'm not sure i could.
Here's a few site that might be of interest to you:
http://www.animalspirits.com/index1.html
http://www.manataka.org/page291.html
http://www.support-native-american-art.com/Native-American-Animal-Symbols.html
And about the kkk, do the present kkk still wear those horrible hoods?
And as for spirtituality, maybe it calms down the mind. Give some kind of peace.
Dear compassionate_warrior,
Could it be that you don’t have to be religious to be spiritual?
As for the kkk, Zombiegirl has filled me in.
Dear Dakini,
In short, then, we could say that the people that settled in America has evolved. It should be understandable considering that even in a little country, the people in the north could be very different from the people in the south. And the Americans have been in America for a long time now.
Dear kayte,
Thanks for the links. Will check that out. As for the kkk and Puritans, maybe, I don’t understand much about the Puritans, not even the kkk. At that moment, I was just thinking both seems to be something from the past. Tell me more about Puritans and kkk, won’t you?
I'll try to explain the Puritans and the KKK in the simplest terms, to avoid confusion.
The Puritans broke away from the main church and had disdain for what they considered frivolous behavior (holidays and celebrations)and valued their civic freedoms. They were united in their strict religious beliefs. This belief system was biased against people outside of their group. The Puritans were famous for the Salem witch trials and people were executed.
The KKK came into existence after the Civil War out of anger and hatred. Several young men decided to start a social club and set up rules, ceremonies, oaths, ranks, etc. It turned violent and specifically targeted the newly freed black slaves. They became a deadly group and gained influence in the South for a period of time.
If you would like some links on the history of these two groups let me know.
well, i think for some people their heritage is a bigger deal than others. to be honest, i don't feel like i have much of one at all and i've always been slightly jealous of people who knew more about their roots. most americans are just "american" and don't really talk about heritage, unless it's obvious. for example, i've known my best friend for 6 years and i was just thinking to myself, "i have no idea what his heritage is."
the exception to this rule seems to be through food, however. when i think of my friends/roommates/acquaintances that have made me aware of their heritage, it is almost always through food. one of my old roommates was italian-american and she was a fantastic cook, making recipes handed down to her through her mother. to be honest, all that being swedish means to me is that we sometimes eat nasty hard bread (knackebrod) with pickled herring. oh, and we drink A LOT of coffee. but honestly, that's it. i think a good portion of americans are like me. we only really discuss our heritage when someone asks, otherwise, it's pretty much a non-issue. for me, on both sides of my family, we immigrated to the US 3 generations ago. i think that's long enough to lose most of what many would call "heritage" to most americans, being "american" is more important than "my great-grandparents came here from ____"
as far as the KKK, i honestly don't know about the hoods. i just saw a documentary not too long ago about how they are still alive and kicking. wikipedia has more info about them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
as far as i know, i don't think they are as popular these days, but the Aryan Brotherhood is very popular in the prison system.
Thanks! Your explanation about the Puritans and kkk were very clear. I have seen TV series called Salem’s lots or something like that but just thought that it is just some fancy story. Tell me more about this witch hunt, won’t you like you told of the Puritans and kkk.
No, I have never ever been intentionally offensive to anyone in my life unless they ask for it. When I said I was reminded of the kkk, it is not about the person, it’s more about the statement. But checking back my post, ‘you reminded me of the kkk’, it really could mean the person. That’s terrible, isn’t it ? – how words can create havocs!
Dear zombiegirl,
I am from a mulitcultural country - Malaysia. To most people here, I think heritage is a big thing. The Chinese here still speak Chinese and practise the old customs that they inherit from their forefathers who came from China. Just recently, we celebrate the Duan Wu Jie, a festival where we make special food of glutinous rice wrapped in bambboo leaves called zong zi. Most of the Chinese here are born here. And we still believe in spirits. People who passed away are supposed to return on the seventh day and we still hear of people telling stories of their loved one coming back. No personal experience though.
It was a dark time in New England's history. Here are some links for you to read. I don't know if the movie, "Three Sovereigns for Sarah" is still available, but it is a very good depiction of that period.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/brief-salem.html
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/salem.htm
http://www.salemwitchtrials.com/salemwitchcraft.html
You could probably find some videos online, too.
@kayte I discovered recently that the Puritans weren't accepted in all parts of New England. I found a record of a distant ancestor of mine who was run out of the Connecticut community where he'd settled, for being a Puritan.
maybe someday we will be able to remove the conservative stick of the puritans from our a**es.
Dear compassionate_warrior,
The record of your distant ancestor should be saved for the museum.
It is valuable and thanks for the information that you furnished.
Dear zombiegirl,
I suppose that’s why we have to learn history. It explains the present.
Woman jailed 6 months over 'ghost' swindle
http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=44926:woman-jailed-6-months-over-ghost-swindle&Itemid=4
What ever gets one through the day!
The long is: I don't care about spirits or ghosts
Buddha never lies.
so I basically don't spent an iota of waking moments caring about it either way, except when I do Metta.
Do I believe once one dies there is blackness, nothing, a empty void on the other side? Nope. I choose not to believe that.
I believe there's Something else going on, on the other side. I believe our consciousness somehow merges with the consciousness of all other life or the Universe - in some way.
But, do I believe we retain some sort of human-like form of gaseous 'spiritual' material floating about in some other plane of existence, communicating with, protecting, or scaring the bejeezus out of people here in this earthly realm?
Hmmm... leaning heavily towards Nope on that one as well.
Do I believe in reincarnation? Yes, actually I do. Perhaps not entirely the Buddhist idea of reincarnation; but yes.
However, I willingly and humbly admit that this is strictly a 'spiritual' belief; faith, if you will. Not based in any sort of science or technological proof or knowledge.
Someone mentioned "magic" and Witchcraft in comments several posts back.
This is an area I feel that I've experienced quite a bit of myself, and have studied, read about it, and knew/spoken to many many others who've also been involved in magic and witchcraft.... and it's funny, because I am MUCH more skeptical - no, dismissive of it now, than I ever was in the past.
As closed minded as this may sound, people who believe they can control their physical surroundings, the weather (as in storms, tornadoes, lightning bolts, etc), and/or the consciousness and will of other people, (beyond ordinary emotional, verbal or subliminal manipulations that anyone can do), by way of waving a wand, chanting some spells, or lighting candles and sticking pins in dolls, are completely deluded.
The reason I say this is not a closed minded stance, is because I've come to this conclusion after more than 30 years of experience and delving into magic and witchcraft and its peripheral beliefs myself.
Conclusion: IMO It is all self-delusion.
Some scholars believe that Native American ideas on spirits, or the soul, predate current religious ideas. Since the indigenous population migrated to the continent 50k years ago, and maintained an uninterrupted oral tradition until European contact, and, although beliefs vary amongst the tribes, they all share a similar cosmology. It was mentioned that Native American beliefs are similar to Asian beliefs, but there are some interesting unique distinctions. I think some of it is actually quite Buddhist.
The word, “religion,” does not exist in Native American languages neither does the concept of religion as the Western world understands it. For Native Americans, one does not commit to and act in accordance to a particular religion – one simply lives according to accepted traditions and values. Religious concepts are a part of the natural way of life. This includes not just the life we live in this world, but also the one we live in death. There is no distinction.
Native Americans’ concept of the soul is similar to Hindus, Buddhists and Jains, where the soul is pre-existent and continues to exist after death as opposed to the Judeo-Christian traditional linear idea of the soul living out one lifetime and is done. Native Americans’ soul also differs from the Western Cartesian model, defined by the distinct separation of mind and body; however, the inseparability extends beyond Eastern religious belief, (i.e. Hindus,) which submit to cyclical eschatological cosmologies. For Native Americans, metaphysically, the interconnectedness with humans and animals, the earth, extends further into the spirit world, implies the present’s existing connection with the past and future. The natural and supernatural are not separate – all are one. Therefore those who have died, remain a part of this world. Death is only a transformation, not an ending. There is no cycle (like Hindu Maya Yugas).
For Native Americans, the “eternal return” of cyclical Time does not exist. There is only an eternal interconnectedness between the natural and supernatural. Time just “is.” The Sioux believe the goal of reincarnation is to continue the chain of life with eternally continuous reincarnation, ultimately being reborn into one’s family. There is no concept of breaking out of the chain of reincarnation. No exiting samsara into enlightenment for Native Americans.
Everything is in essence a part of the Wakan Tanka (Great Mystery/Spirit), a part of existence in its wholeness. Our human nature, or soul, is simply bestowed upon us, by the Wakan Tanka, as a part of the greater spirit nature.
Now, for example, the Sioux, believe humans are comprised of fours souls: niya (or woniya), nagi, nagila, and the sicun. The niya, or “life breath” is what ties us to this life—it is our very breath. The nagi, is what one stereotypically defines as “ghost,” representing the personality of the individual, and when separated from its body, it could become malevolent. The nagila is referred to as the “little ghost.” From a quantum physics level, everything is in constant motion, in a state of flux. The nagila is that energy force common to all - or for Buddhists the "energy" of impermanence. The sicun is the sacred power one receives through interaction with the supernatural.
For the Sioux, one’s personal spiritual goal is to achieve the awareness of the unity of the four souls. One must transcend the notion of the separation of the souls to discover the wholeness of all things.
The unique Sioux tradition to “keep the ghost” assists the nagi, which upon death separates from the three other souls, in their process to follow the route of reincarnation and four-soul unification. After a person dies, a family is expected to continue to acknowledge the existence of the nagi, in their lives and treat the ghost with respect, but also encourage the nagi to move on towards reincarnation. Attachments for the Sioux ghost can be detrimental, as in Buddhist philosophy, attachments in life and death (per the Bardo) prevents one to move on towards enlightenment. The Sioux ghost, as it wanders in the Land of the Dead, yearns for things of the past, but this could prevent the ghost from continuing with its process. To assist the nagi, the family of the deceased performs the “give away” ritual, where they host a huge for the community and literally give away every object (clothing, tools, combs, weapons, etc) the deceased owned. If the ghost returns to the family residence, its personal objects are not there to create an attachment to the world of the living. If a ghost does find attachments, they will linger in the world of the living and bring bad luck to the family.
However, if a ghost is not properly “kept,” then it can create mischief, cause illnesses, or entice the living to join them or take on more malicious characteristics. The nagi also suffers. If the nagi spends too much time wandering in the limbo of the land of the living, it becomes fragmented and can eventually die off.
Personally, thier ideas of the soul (except for their reincarnation belief) seems logical to me in a Buddhist sense.
Soul and consciousness are interchangeable in the Native American sense. They don't have the Judeo-Christian sense of the soul, and i am not using the term "soul" in that regard. The idea of "soul" is metaphorical. The description of the Sioux soul is part of the mythology to teach one that if one does not unify oneself with existence, then they are fragmented, unenlightened. There really isn't a "seperate" soul in the Cartesian sense - nor are there really "four souls" (again a mythology to teach one that through ritual and through seeing that one exists in death as in life - just a way to describe in human terms for human understanding). The Sioux spiritual goal is to transcend the perceived seperateness (of Self, from death, from existence, and even in the Christian sense from God, or the Great Spirit) and enter into the singleness and oneness of consciousness.
Again, I'm not saying there is no connection, but before believing there is, I'd like to see some evidence.
Vinlyn, are you asking me to provide links to academic articles discussing these possible connections? I never claimed hard evidence - only what some scholars are suggesting. I am not trying to prove anything - only provide some additional information and something to think about since others mentioned Native American spirits.
I was under the impression it is ok to throw out ideas, food for thought and such on this site. I am just exploring the possibilities. Sure, this is my personal opinion, and others have a similar opinion based as exhibited in academic works I have encountered that provided ideas on connections:
Mandalas and Mesoamerican Pecked Circles [and Comments and Reply]
Author(s): Victor N. Mansfield, John B. Carlson, Gabriella Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi, H. J. Eysenck, Uma Charan Mohanty, Balaji Mundkur and Karl A. Wipf
Reviewed work(s):
Source: Current Anthropology, Vol. 22, No. 3 (Jun., 1981), pp. 269-284
Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological
Research
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2742202
Varner, Gary R. Ghosts, Spirits & the Afterlife in Native American Folklore and Religion. North Carolina: Lulu Press, 2010. Print.
Jefferson, Warren. Reincarnation Beliefs of Northern American Indians. Soul Journeys,
Metamorphoses and Near-Death Experiences. Tennessee: Native Voices, 2008. Print.