If our soul is not in the body, where is it?

jll

I was watching a documentary on the science of the soul.
And it occured to me that science cant answer the basic question of what is life. What is the difference between a dead body and a living person? Is it energy?
Some monks claim that our consciousness is not in our brain nor our body, then where is it?

taiyaki

Consciousness is non local, but at the same time here right now. What the soul is, is merely the interpretation as our Self to be consciousness itself. This is also I believe what is called the Atman or the eternal witness in Hinduism. In Buddhism this Soul/consciousness is seen as empty, thus moving away from Hinduism.

Science cannot answer the question because science is looking outwards. All the answers are right here within us. What is it that watches all the mental phenomena? What is it that is always there?

Thao

I was watching a documentary on the science of the soul.
And it occured to me that science cant answer the basic question of what is life. What is the difference between a dead body and a living person? Is it energy?
Some monks claim that our consciousness is not in our brain nor our body, then where is it?

I believe that quantum physics would say that it is everywhere and nowhere in particular. like taiyaki just said.

Mountains

Why does it have to "be" anywhere?

SherabDorje

It needs to be pointed out that in Buddhism there is nothing that compares with the Judaeo-Christian "soul". The question sounds a bit like that to me.

Does the answer to this question contribute anything to the cessation of suffering? We perceive the locus of our consciousness to be within ourselves somewhere, usually in our heads because that's where "thinking" takes place, and we can use that locus of consciousness to follow the Dharma, but, IMO, asking where the "soul" is, is imponderable and kind of pointless. How could we ever really know?

Daozen

The idea of a 'soul' raises more questions than it answers.

Talisman

There is no soul.

jll

What about the question of life? Is science able to explain what is it that makes an organism alive?

SherabDorje

What about the question of life? Is science able to explain what is it that makes an organism alive?

Yes. DNA. Replication or reproduction. In humans, quality of life is a different matter. There may be a brainstem evoked response and an EKG, but that's an ethical matter that is probably best pursued as another thread or searched for on the site first.

jll

Sherab, actually I am asking about how scientist measure life.
I know the signs of life. But what is death? what is it that died?

What about the question of life? Is science able to explain what is it that makes an organism alive?

Yes. DNA. Replication or reproduction. In humans, quality of life is a different matter. There may be a brainstem evoked response and an EKG, but that's an ethical matter that is probably best pursued as another thread or searched for on the site first.

Mountains

Yes. DNA. Replication or reproduction. In humans, quality of life is a different matter. There may be a brainstem evoked response and an EKG, but that's an ethical matter that is probably best pursued as another thread or searched for on the site first.

Well...... there is an argument that a prion may be alive even though it doesn't possess DNA or RNA. But that's another discussion

jll

What is a 'prion'?

zombiegirl

Sherab, actually I am asking about how scientist measure life.
I know the signs of life. But what is death? what is it that died?

there is a whole chain reaction of things that happen once someone has died. i'm not a doctor, so i can't give you specific examples of what happens to the body, but even so, what i know is that once the body stops functioning as it is supposed to, cells die. there is a point in dying where we can sometimes reanimate the body (usually by means of a defibrillator), but there is also a point where the process has gone too far. sometimes we can reanimate a person, but they suffer severe brain damage because of the death of too many cells. i tend to think of the body like a machine: it cannot function without the use of all its parts. imo, the process is not mystical at all and is completely natural. it is the same for humans as it is for animals. do you believe that animals have souls as well?

santhisouk

But what is death? what is it that died?

When there is an imbalance of our internal elements (earth, fire, water, air), due to old age, sickness, or an abrupt change, the soul or consciousness no longer has the foundations to support it. So the elements dissolves back to into nature, and the consciousness our soul searches for another foundation (rebirth).

jll

Have you ever wondered why we cant bring a dead person or plant back to life? Correct me if I am wrong, I dont think science has an answer to that yet.

Yes, i think animals have 'souls'. Their consciousness will continue after their death.

vinlyn

But what is death? what is it that died?

When there is an imbalance of our internal elements (earth, fire, water, air), due to old age, sickness, or an abrupt change, the soul or consciousness no longer has the foundations to support it. So the elements dissolves back to into nature, and the consciousness our soul searches for another foundation (rebirth).

What century are you talking from? Earth, fire, water, air.

Mr_Serenity

The soul is real and it is made of energy. This is the same energy many cultures around the world refer to as "chi" (or other words). Sometimes when people have traumatic deaths a large amount of their energy stays imprinted somewhere as they have not yet had closure and still search for it. This is how a lot of places become haunted, residual hauntings tend to be result of this.

But if the soul is conscious, and aware it tends to reside in another dimension. That dimension is known as the 5th dimension. When one learns how to astral project and they're completely conscious while doing so, they gain access to the 5th dimension. This is essentially where spirits come from and many extraterrestrials hang around there as well. It is "the spirit world".

When you die the results are not the same for everyone. Sometimes people die in a very traumatic way and their energy stays attached to something. But for those that die at peace with an aware and calm mind, most of the time their soul moves on to one of these dimensions. Most likely even that is temporary, because reincarnation is also real.

The spirit world where souls reside is like a dream world. When you're dreaming it's like a movie being played by your subconscious where often your control is limited , it's not the real spirit world. But your dreams are a glimpse of it and are relevant to your own spiritual growth. The real spirit world is only seen once you learn how to actually astral project.

When you learn how to enter this realm your soul explores it with a silver cord attached to your body. It is not hallucination, it is as real as this physical realm. It is possible to see your own body even as a soul. This is how you know the soul is real, this is what out of body experiences are. They're conscious experiences as a soul.

This is not new age stuff. It has been known in many cultures around the world. Many shamans from all types of cultures take trips into the spirit world through means like astral projection.

But of course if one doesn't believe in chi or spirits they will never believe in the soul or the spirit world. Essentially at someones core they don't fundamentally change, they can, but it's very rare. Sometimes it's not in them, or it's impossible for them in this life to consider this stuff as real. Because it's not really a science. It's not a physical something that can controlled in a scientific environment. It's a personal quest that is linked to a spiritual realm, not this physical realm. It's up to one to partake in that quest and learn for themselves.

This information is just stuff I've learned first hand. I've encountered spirits/entities in this realm and the other and documented them the best I could. Through my encounters I began my quest to learn more. Don't take my word for it. It's not a matter of faith. Most of the time this stuff won't come to you. If it does it's a rare twist of fate. To really learn it you have to seek it and test it.

person

Sherab, actually I am asking about how scientist measure life.
I know the signs of life. But what is death? what is it that died?

Some experienced meditators when they die enter the clear light mind and can stay there for a week or more. When they do their body stays upright and stays fresh. When their conciousness finally leaves the body it slumps over and fluid comes out of the nose. This was a fairly common phenomena in old Tibet and still happens today. HHDL has scientific equipment kept in a New Dehli hospital so when this happens doctors can go measure the body. So far they've only tested one person, either no one has been around to do the tests when one of these people die or no one has died in this way when the doctors and equipment is available. But they're trying to get some hard evidence on this phenomena.

budding_flower

Hi @MrSerenity,

I hear you, but this is a Buddhist forum, and most people here don't believe in the existence of a concrete let's say 'soul' that can survive after death rather a complex set of karmic threats that create a new life form, as I have come to understand it.

Now, for me I have encountered many spirits in my magician phase, but it's not a matter of if their real or not. It's a matter of the core belief system that determines how people will perceive reality. I believe in my ancestors great motto: 'Know thy Self'. Know your core beliefs and why you hold them. Can you be free to adapt your mind in an ever changing world? Some things cannot change within you, but what you can do is be aware of them and not get attached...

With metta,
budding_flower

zombiegirl

Have you ever wondered why we cant bring a dead person or plant back to life? Correct me if I am wrong, I dont think science has an answer to that yet.

Yes, i think animals have 'souls'. Their consciousness will continue after their death.

i thought i answered this question. once the death process has begun, cells begin to deteriorate/die at a rapid rate. even at our base level, we are just the sum of many small parts. if they stop working, we stop working. sometimes you will hear statistics like, "so-n-so only has use of 30% of their lungs/brain/liver/whatever" because the deterioration has gone that far. i believe i heard once that the cells of the central nervous system/spinal cord are the first to die, lasting only less than ten minutes without oxygen. once the spinal cord has died, this is when most consider the body to be dead, although there may still be some living cells within it. once a person's nervous system has died, there is no communication between the brain and the body.

you can still believe, if you wish to, that the nervous system stands as some sort of communicator between a "soul" and the body. i'm just giving you the scientific standpoint of what happens to the body. i think this is one of those topics that confirmation bias lends heavily to.

SherabDorje

jll, you are asking a question(s) that people have been asking since abstract, self-reflective consciousness evolved. Look at it this way- the study of the physical world from "modern" astronomy to quantum mechanics has been going on for about 400 years, with advances in technology helping along the way (discovery of the microwave background noise, the Hubble telescope). Maybe after about 400 years of equally intensive study we'll understand consciousness better. But IMO it's not going to be resolved on an internet bulletin board. These are the so-called "timeless" questions.

thickpaper

What is the difference between a dead body and a living person?

In one there are processes that lead to experience in the other tehse processes are unsustainable.
There is no soul.
There are no essences of any things.
All is empty.
All is impermanent.

This is The Bright Light of Dharma, at least to me.

jll

Thanks for all the response. It just perplex me that we can measure things like heart beat and blood pressure. We can even control it using chemicals etc. But death seems to be the threshold where everything no longer works. I guess the best exp[lanation is that the enrgy has expired like a candle that has burnt itself out. But a candle that is blown out by the wind can be rekindled. So why cant we transfer chi to a dead person and revive her. Qigong masters can use chi to heal patients and bend the flames of a candle. Too bad I am not a scientist otherwise I would investigate these things.

federica

But what is death? what is it that died?

When there is an imbalance of our internal elements (earth, fire, water, air), due to old age, sickness, or an abrupt change, the soul or consciousness no longer has the foundations to support it. So the elements dissolves back to into nature, and the consciousness our soul searches for another foundation (rebirth).

What century are you talking from? Earth, fire, water, air.

The 21st.
Traditional Asian/oriental Medicines still use this system today as a viable description of certain conditions and energy channels.
Contemporary TOM and Ayurveda discuss the different energies personified by these elements, and actually, they are pretty spot on.

These medical systems have existed for thousands of years.
if any scheme of medicine is alternative, it's the "wester" one, which has in essence, only been around for about 300 years.
Maximum.

I trust you were not being scathing or deprecating, but were genuinely interested?
I hope that helps....

budding_flower

First time that I will wholeheartetly agry with you @Federica , not that I haven't agreed with you in the past about things...

person

I'm hoping @zombiegirl can shed some light on this from her first person perspective.

vinlyn

Hi @MrSerenity,

I hear you, but this is a Buddhist forum, and most people here don't believe in the existence of a concrete let's say 'soul' that can survive after death rather a complex set of karmic threats that create a new life form, as I have come to understand it.

Now, for me I have encountered many spirits in my magician phase, but it's not a matter of if their real or not. It's a matter of the core belief system that determines how people will perceive reality. I believe in my ancestors great motto: 'Know thy Self'. Know your core beliefs and why you hold them. Can you be free to adapt your mind in an ever changing world? Some things cannot change within you, but what you can do is be aware of them and not get attached...

With metta,
budding_flower

Why is Mr. Serenity not allowed to believe in a soul, but you are allowed to believe in spirits?

vinlyn

But what is death? what is it that died?

When there is an imbalance of our internal elements (earth, fire, water, air), due to old age, sickness, or an abrupt change, the soul or consciousness no longer has the foundations to support it. So the elements dissolves back to into nature, and the consciousness our soul searches for another foundation (rebirth).

What century are you talking from? Earth, fire, water, air.

The 21st.
Traditional Asian/oriental Medicines still use this system today as a viable description of certain conditions and energy channels.
Contemporary TOM and Ayurveda discuss the different energies personified by these elements, and actually, they are pretty spot on.

These medical systems have existed for thousands of years.
if any scheme of medicine is alternative, it's the "wester" one, which has in essence, only been around for about 300 years.
Maximum.

I trust you were not being scathing or deprecating, but were genuinely interested?
I hope that helps....

Having lived in Asia, I'm very well aware of oriental medicines. Nowadays, however, the modern medical hospitals in Bangkok and other Thai cities are filled with Thai patients and international patients. There are still some of the old-fashioned shops that sell herbal medicines, rhino tusks, etc.

federica

Right, but TOM is still alive and kicking and thriving. The system is still as useful and valid as it has ever been.
Simply because the system is ancient, does not mean it doesn't work....

Buddhism is nearly 3000 years of age, and that's doing ok....

dorje

Ever brewed chrysanthemum tea and drinking it on a hot day? Even when it's hot chrysanthemum tea it cools the body down. That's TOM for you.

vinlyn

Right, but TOM is still alive and kicking and thriving. The system is still as useful and valid as it has ever been.
Simply because the system is ancient, does not mean it doesn't work....

Buddhism is nearly 3000 years of age, and that's doing ok....

But it's not ALL valid. And, I would remind you that not all the things found in such markets are from plants. Many are from sentient animals who are killed exclusively for body parts and fluids for these home remedies. In Malaysia one night I watched them chop the head off of a dozen poisonous snakes, slit them down the length of their bodies, and drain out the blood and the fluids in other body organs to be drunk for things like "longevity" and "sexual prowess". And it isn't just the lowly snake. Rhino horns are ground up for medicine, tiger parts, etc.

Amelia

What is the difference between a dead body and a living person? Is it energy?

Energy might be a part of it, but it cannot rely solely on energy because simply electrifying a dead body does not always bring the consciousness back.

Science cannot answer the question because science is looking outwards.

Some scientists are quite willing to look inward. Not all hope is lost in this arena.

Why does it have to "be" anywhere?

Interesting question... does everything have a time and a place, or do some things not exist in such terms. If that is true, how can we understand them? We can only imagine until we stumble upon the answer, if ever.

Does the answer to this question contribute anything to the cessation of suffering?

Perhaps. If the answer were found, then there would be a cessation of doubt about certain things in life, and in death. Doubt is a cause of suffering. When we are sure of a fact and we can see the clarity of something, where is the suffering unless we are being stubborn and refusing to go along with the truth?

The idea of a 'soul' raises more questions than it answers.

That's why I find the question so wonderful!

There is no soul.

Such surety. Why? I also ask, why not?

what is it that died?

Many will reason that it is only the body that dies, and that what gave the body life continues to exist on an alternate plane of some sort, or disappears completely. Perhaps it is the body that powers life.

jll

I think we need to separate professional traditional chinese medicine practitioners from the snake oil men. China. Korea, Japan has university professors specialising in TCM. It is very scientific.

Mr_Serenity

Thanks for all the response. It just perplex me that we can measure things like heart beat and blood pressure. We can even control it using chemicals etc. But death seems to be the threshold where everything no longer works. I guess the best exp[lanation is that the enrgy has expired like a candle that has burnt itself out. But a candle that is blown out by the wind can be rekindled. So why cant we transfer chi to a dead person and revive her. Qigong masters can use chi to heal patients and bend the flames of a candle. Too bad I am not a scientist otherwise I would investigate these things.

The physical body is a temporary vessel for energy and the soul, but that doesn't mean that energy can fully control the bodies ability to live. Some physical ailments such as burns, asthma, cannot be reversed by energy work. The same thing applies to when a heart stops, or when someone loses too much blood, when someones neck gets broken, etc.

The mind, body and spirit are all connected, but the most important out of all of those is the body. Because the body does have limits. Energy work can do some wonders, but since the body has limits there is only so much you can do with someone who is close to death or already passed that point. It's easier to become a master at Western medicine than it is with Eastern medicine. With that in mind I would rather trust my life in the hands of a good Western doctor if I was close to death.

I do know of a Qigong master that is so powerful he can set paper on fire with just his touch alone. It is said his Qigong is so strong because he is in partnership with several spirits and that is where he gets his energy. He is currently a fugitive in China living in some rural farm land, because the Chinese want to control all the Qigong masters that have these abilities. But due to people like that being so rare I have no idea how his powers would be able to work on a dead man. I've heard stories of Qigong practitioners that can bring dead bugs back to life temporarily with energy, but bugs are physically different than humans. Some bugs can live without their heads for hours. So its probably a lot easier to bring them back with energy.

zombiegirl

I'm hoping @zombiegirl can shed some light on this from her first person perspective.

hahaha! sadly, it took me a few read-throughs to get this, but very clever, person!

Seph

I was watching a documentary on the science of the soul.
And it occured to me that science cant answer the basic question of what is life. What is the difference between a dead body and a living person? Is it energy?
Some monks claim that our consciousness is not in our brain nor our body, then where is it?

Here's another perspective I like;

Imagine our mind as being like that of a turtle.
Our mind/soul has many 'appendages', but only one fleshly one (our body). It is our body which is 'contained' within our mind/soul, not vise versa.

I know it creates more questions than it answers, but it is something to ponder.

budding_flower

Hi @MrSerenity,

I hear you, but this is a Buddhist forum, and most people here don't believe in the existence of a concrete let's say 'soul' that can survive after death rather a complex set of karmic threats that create a new life form, as I have come to understand it.

Now, for me I have encountered many spirits in my magician phase, but it's not a matter of if their real or not. It's a matter of the core belief system that determines how people will perceive reality. I believe in my ancestors great motto: 'Know thy Self'. Know your core beliefs and why you hold them. Can you be free to adapt your mind in an ever changing world? Some things cannot change within you, but what you can do is be aware of them and not get attached...

With metta,
budding_flower

Why is Mr. Serenity not allowed to believe in a soul, but you are allowed to believe in spirits?

Did I said that? That @MrSerenity is not allowed to believe in the existence of a Soul @vinlyn, and that I'm allowed to believe in spirits? Where did that come from anyway?

What I said was, that most of the members in the forum from a Buddhic point of view tend to not to beleive in an existence of a concrete soul and that doesn't mean that all of the members do not believe its existence some do. And I mentioned my 'magician phase' in working with spirits, to emphasize on the fact that I have had an experience with spirits, and that it doesn't matter to me if their 'real' or not, for this is just a belief, but how attached is someone to once own philosophy about things. I don't believe, I experience, at least I try to...

federica

But it's not ALL valid. And, I would remind you that not all the things found in such markets are from plants. Many are from sentient animals who are killed exclusively for body parts and fluids for these home remedies. In Malaysia one night I watched them chop the head off of a dozen poisonous snakes, slit them down the length of their bodies, and drain out the blood and the fluids in other body organs to be drunk for things like "longevity" and "sexual prowess". And it isn't just the lowly snake. Rhino horns are ground up for medicine, tiger parts, etc.

Up to you to discern and investigate what is valid for you, or not.
Incidentally, TOM practitioners who prescribe herbal remedies in the UK are closely vetted and monitored, and are not permitted to import or dispense certain materials such as the ones you mention.
Of course, if you choose to go to someone who has no credentials or has a dubious reputation, then you get what you pay for.
Most modern public hospitals and official clinics in Thailand, Hong Kong and elsewhere in the Far East are reputable, and as such their practitioners trustworthy.

There are also dubious and underhand practitioners in Western medicine, too. I know of two local doctors who were struck of for malpractice, and one additional one who actually had no credentials or qualifications at all, acting as a paediatrician!

"Let the buyer beware".

Daozen

So why cant we transfer chi to a dead person and revive her.

Because chi doesn't exist.

'Death' means that a self-organised network of biological processes have broken down beyond repair.

Daozen

I do know of a Qigong master that is so powerful he can set paper on fire with just his touch alone.

BS.

Mr_Serenity

I do know of a Qigong master that is so powerful he can set paper on fire with just his touch alone.

BS.

For being a dedicated Buddhist you sure come across as pretty rude. BS to you, but definitely true. There are several Qigong practitioners around the world that can easily set fire to paper just with their hands. It starts off with the paper smoking and then fire. No tricks besides the Chi. I have a good video of it being done, but well you would call it BS even if it was done right in front of you.

federica

@Daozen, you may have opinion, but first of all, communicate it respectfully, and secondly, kindly make allowances for the fact that you may be wrong.

Which, by the way - you are.

taiyaki

maybe the soul is the subtle energetic body and the physical built upon that.

but isn't the energetic body just another manifestation of consciousness? well subtle but still physical. or is it a hybrid of both the physical and non physical. or maybe there really is no true distinction between physical and non physical or consciousness and energetic body.

maybe this is all just manifestations of consciousness in consciousness.

probably why we cannot find it because it is in no specific place, but it is everywhere as well. there isn't anything to find because it is always here.

just some thoughts.

Talisman

There is no soul. The soul is an illusion created by the union of the 5 aggregates subject to clinging; namely Form, Feeling, Perception, Volition, and Consciousness (the function to discern.) Belief in a soul is belief in an immutable and eternal entity capable of interacting with an impermanent, co-dependently arisen world of phenomena. Such an interaction would be impossible.

taiyaki

isn't denying the existence of a soul the same game as asserting?

Talisman

isn't denying the existence of a soul the same game as asserting?

How so? Can you explain?

taiyaki

assertion and denial are both belief systems.

the most logical conclusion on any matter is that you don't know.

anything else is just an assumption of logic, belief, or interpretation.

Talisman

@taiyaki

I don't think stating that there is no soul is necesarily a denial. In my mind, it is stating fact based on personal inquiry.

Also, there is a difference between "don't know mind" and agnosticism. The latter is itself a belief system that the truth is unknowable. The former is a state of mind that leads to clarity and direct knowledge of truth.

I don't need to cling to Anatman to apprehend its validity.

taiyaki

inquire some more then. asserting a soul and denying the soul is both absurd. only the mind can assert and negate. the mind itself can point to truth. not knowing is the truth because there is nothing to know. there is only what is.

all views are wrong, thus all views are right. one belief is not greater than another. they are all equally invalid. that is the middle way.

so one cannot say that there is a soul or there isn't a soul. both are reflections of the same duality.

just food for thought. or no thought hehehe.

Talisman

@Taiyaki
"all views are wrong"

Except the first noble truth..."Right View"

You can't push away thoughts, views, beliefs, and concepts just because they are "views." Right view lead to awakening. It is a tool. The Buddha stated, quite assertively, that there is no soul.

taiyaki

right view is that there is no right view. thus the buddha doesn't cling to anything.

it isn't about pushing away ideas or beliefs. they are poetic expressions of truth.
the point is to not cling to them as if they were right or wrong. because in essence there is no right or wrong. there is just what is.

i have no idea if you cling to a view. that is your business. just don't play all your cards on one view. as soon as you speak you've already lost the game.

a concept alone cannot lead to awakening. it is following through logic and seeing duality for what it is. then we can see the underlying non duality. all insight and wisdom arises from emptiness and back towards emptiness.

but i realize that concepts can also help unhook from views. using poison to cure another poison.

ah well lovely speaking to you!