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Anapanasati/Satipatthana Suttas "Tetrads": Tich Nhat Hanh, Ajaan Geoff
Similarities & Differences Between Thich Nhat Hanh's & Ajaan Geoff's (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) Translations:
:buck:
TETRAD I:
AG: Body (in and of itself)
TNH: Form (body as body)
1: AG/TNH: in/out breathing
2: AG/TNH: long/short
3: AG: sensitive to the entire body
TNH: experiencing body
4: AG: calming bodily fabrication
TNH: calming body
TETRAD II:
AG/TNH: Feelings/feelings (in and of themselves/as feelings)
5: AG: sensitive to rapture
TNH: experiencing joy
6: AG: sensitive to pleasure
TNH: experiencing bliss
7: AG: sensitive to mental fabrications
TNH: experiencing mental formations
8: AG: calming mental fabrications
TNH: calming mental formations
TETRAD III:
AG: Mind (in and of itself)
TNH: Mental formations (mind as mind)
9: AG: sensitive to the mind
TNH: experiencing mind
10: AG: satisfying mind
TNH: gladdening mind
11: AG: steadying mind
TNH: concentrating mind
12: AG: releasing mind
TNH: liberating mind
Tetrad IV:
AG: mental qualities (in and of themselves)
TNH: perceptions (objects of mind as objects of mind)
13: AG: focusing on inconstancy
TNH: contemplating impermanence
14: AG: focusing on dispassion/fading
TNH: contemplating non-craving
15: AG: focusing on cessation
TNH: focusing on nirvana
16: AG: focusing on relinquishment
TNH: contemplating letting go
Also: TNH translates satipatthana as "Foundations of Mindfulness" & AG as "Frames of Reference."
The biggest noticeable difference to me is 16. Isn't the Pali word in question here "nirodha," usually translated as "cessation?" Any ideas why TNH went with "nirvana"?
Sources:
Nh́ât Hạnh, Thích (2008). Breathe, you are alive!: the sutra on the full awareness of breathing. Berkeley: Parallax Press.
Nh́ât Hạnh, Thích (2006). Transformation and healing: Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness [translated from the Pali by Thich Nhat Hanh and Annabel Laity; translated from the Vietnamese by Annabel Laity]. Berkeley: Parallax Press.
AG/Anapanasati sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html
AG/Satipatthana sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.htm :buck:
:buck:
TETRAD I:
AG: Body (in and of itself)
TNH: Form (body as body)
1: AG/TNH: in/out breathing
2: AG/TNH: long/short
3: AG: sensitive to the entire body
TNH: experiencing body
4: AG: calming bodily fabrication
TNH: calming body
TETRAD II:
AG/TNH: Feelings/feelings (in and of themselves/as feelings)
5: AG: sensitive to rapture
TNH: experiencing joy
6: AG: sensitive to pleasure
TNH: experiencing bliss
7: AG: sensitive to mental fabrications
TNH: experiencing mental formations
8: AG: calming mental fabrications
TNH: calming mental formations
TETRAD III:
AG: Mind (in and of itself)
TNH: Mental formations (mind as mind)
9: AG: sensitive to the mind
TNH: experiencing mind
10: AG: satisfying mind
TNH: gladdening mind
11: AG: steadying mind
TNH: concentrating mind
12: AG: releasing mind
TNH: liberating mind
Tetrad IV:
AG: mental qualities (in and of themselves)
TNH: perceptions (objects of mind as objects of mind)
13: AG: focusing on inconstancy
TNH: contemplating impermanence
14: AG: focusing on dispassion/fading
TNH: contemplating non-craving
15: AG: focusing on cessation
TNH: focusing on nirvana
16: AG: focusing on relinquishment
TNH: contemplating letting go
Also: TNH translates satipatthana as "Foundations of Mindfulness" & AG as "Frames of Reference."
The biggest noticeable difference to me is 16. Isn't the Pali word in question here "nirodha," usually translated as "cessation?" Any ideas why TNH went with "nirvana"?
Sources:
Nh́ât Hạnh, Thích (2008). Breathe, you are alive!: the sutra on the full awareness of breathing. Berkeley: Parallax Press.
Nh́ât Hạnh, Thích (2006). Transformation and healing: Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness [translated from the Pali by Thich Nhat Hanh and Annabel Laity; translated from the Vietnamese by Annabel Laity]. Berkeley: Parallax Press.
AG/Anapanasati sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html
AG/Satipatthana sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.htm :buck:
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Comments
I noticed that too. I think the Pali words are "piti & sukkha," respectively. :buck:
But since then I’ve seen the definitions of Piti and Sukha made in many different ways that could all basically be interpreted as a happy feeling, so I guess it's all semantics, as long as we understand the meanings of words in their context.
In terms of Piti I think of it as ‘stimulating/excited happiness/joy’ and Sukha as ‘soothing/tranquil happiness/joy’. I think/hope I’ve got that right!
When I was meditating this morning I noticed at one point Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee)
When I was meditating this morning I noticed at one point Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee)
I don't think it's off topic. It's just that the last time I shared a meditation experience online I was completely misunderstood and ridiculed. Is it proper etiquette to share mediation experience? I think so. But it seems it often gets misinterpreted. Maybe I'm being over sensitive and/or paranoid? :buck:
It is important to understand the word "kaya" means "group" or "bodies". It does not exclusively refer the to physical body as a whole.
Thus in the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha states: "I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies" (Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā)
At stage 3, the Pali is "sabba kaya" (sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī), which means "all bodies", the same as the phrase sabbe satta ("all beings") and sabbe dhamma ("all things").
Experiencing "all bodies" means experiencing both the in-&-out breath and physical body together and experiencing the interrelationship & interconditioning between them. As the Buddha said: ""I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies"
Stage 4 is calming the "kaya sankhara" or "body fabricator". The in-&-out breath is the body fabricator because it fabricates/conditions the state of the body (as is learned in Step 3)
AG needs to develop some courage & the qualities of a real "rogue monk", like he did in his "The Shape of Suffering A STUDY OF DEPENDENT CO-ARISING" and depart from his long held conformity to the Singalese Mahavihara Commentary School of Theravada Buddhism. As explained in the current "Hindu/Buddhist Dharma" thread, the word dhamma has many meanings. Here, the word 'dhamma' does not mean 'mental qualities'. Here, the words "dhammesu dhammānupassī" mean "truths" or "ultimate realities". For example, how can "impermanence" be a "mental quality"?
(dhammesu dhammānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati: then that bhikkhu is considered one who lives constantly contemplating Dhamma in dhammas; truths within truths) Imo, the differences here are not anything significant. Nirvana = Nirodha. Nirvana is defined as the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.
Regards
Thats really interesting..
imo, your meditation has not yet visited the 2nd tetrad. my view is you are extrapolating theory onto experience. Regardless of how it feels, as your mind is predominantly pre-occupied with the in-&-out breath, it remains in the 1st tetrad.
The 2nd tetrad occurs when the breath is calmed away so it mostly disappears and rapture arises in the mind (or brain) as the predominant meditation object.
Best wishes
however, what you have written above is valuable, for exploring the sutta further
the sutta states: Contrary to Ajahn Geoff's translation of "mental fabrication", rapture & happiness are the mind fabricator/conditioner (citta sankhara) because these feelings (vedana) fabricate/condition delight & thinking in your mind, that is, your mind regarded it as "nice".
So the very fact the excitement of rapture caused your mind to want to talk about it demonstrates how rapture and happiness are the "mind conditioner", because these feelings condition defilements (lust; greed), delight/attachment and various thoughts and then words.
The Buddha listed lust for rapture of jhana as the 6th fetter.
Kind regards
Whose translation is this? :buck:
perception & feeling are the mind (citta) sankhara (conditioner). this is basic dhamma reality
the citta is "the thinker" or "emotional heart". the citta is akin to sankhara khanda. the citta is not feeling or vedana khanda
as quoted above (from MN 18), feeling & perception conditions the mind or citta
pleasant feeling conditions lust/passion (see MN 148 below)
unpleasant feeling conditions anger/resistence (see MN 148 below)
neither feeling conditions delusion/confusion/ignorance (see MN 148 below)
the "sankhara" in the Anapanasati Sutta is a cause here, as MN 44 (below) logically & realistically describes
run what i have said over with Ajahn Geoff. i trust he will not dispute this because the reality of what I am explaining Ajahn Geoff explained in "The Shape of Suffering A STUDY OF DEPENDENT CO-ARISING"
kind regards
(1) "(2c—mental fabrication). This provokes anger". Because it "provokes" anger, the memory/perception is not the mental fabrication. It is the mind fabricator because it provokes the mind (citta) to fabricate anger.
Similarly, when breathing becomes labored and tight, this causes the body to become tight. One may develop tightness in the jaw, neck and even a muscle spasm in the back. breathing is the bodily fabricator
It's completely my fault, but this quote is TiaP's. It's my fault because I cited it (above) and forgot to put quotes around it or attribute to TiaP. Sorry for the confusion. :buck:
:buck:
"Sometimes mindfulness is defined as appreciating the moment for all the little pleasures it can offer: the taste of a raisin, the feel of a cup of tea in your hands. In the Buddha's vocabulary, this appreciation is called contentment. Contentment is useful when you're experiencing physical hardship, but it's not always useful in the area of the mind. In fact the Buddha once said that the secret to his Awakening was that he didn't allow himself to rest content with whatever attainment he had reached. He kept reaching for something higher until there was nowhere higher to reach. So contentment has to know its time and place. Mindfulness, if it's not glommed together with contentment, can help keep that fact in mind....
Popular books on meditation, though, offer a lot of other definitions for mindfulness, a lot of other duties it's supposed to fulfill—so many that the poor word gets totally stretched out of shape. In some cases, it even gets defined as Awakening, as in the phrase, “A moment of mindfulness is a moment of Awakening”—something the Buddha would never say, because mindfulness is conditioned and nirvana is not.
These are not just minor matters for nitpicking scholars to argue over. If you don't see the differences among the qualities you're bringing to your meditation, they glom together, making it hard for real insight to arise. If you decide that one of the factors on the path to Awakening is Awakening itself, it's like reaching the middle of a road and then falling asleep right there. You never get to the end of the road, and in the meantime you're bound to get run over by aging, illness, and death. So you need to get your directions straight, and that requires, among other things, knowing precisely what mindfulness is and what it's not.
I've heard mindfulness defined as “affectionate attention” or “compassionate attention,” but affection and compassion aren't the same as mindfulness. They're separate things. If you bring them to your meditation, be clear about the fact that they're acting in addition to mindfulness, because skill in meditation requires seeing when qualities like compassion are helpful and when they're not. As the Buddha says, there are times when affection is a cause for suffering, so you have to watch out.
Sometimes mindfulness is defined as appreciating the moment for all the little pleasures it can offer: the taste of a raisin, the feel of a cup of tea in your hands. In the Buddha's vocabulary, this appreciation is called contentment. Contentment is useful when you're experiencing physical hardship, but it's not always useful in the area of the mind. In fact the Buddha once said that the secret to his Awakening was that he didn't allow himself to rest content with whatever attainment he had reached. He kept reaching for something higher until there was nowhere higher to reach. So contentment has to know its time and place. Mindfulness, if it's not glommed together with contentment, can help keep that fact in mind.
Some teachers define mindfulness as “non-reactivity” or “radical acceptance.” If you look for these words in the Buddha's vocabulary, the closest you'll find are equanimity and patience. Equanimity means learning to put aside your preferences so that you can watch what's actually there. Patience is the ability not to get worked up over the things you don't like, to stick with difficult situations even when they don't resolve as quickly as you want them to. But in establishing mindfulness you stay with unpleasant things not just to accept them but to watch and understand them. Once you've clearly seen that a particular quality like aversion or lust is harmful for the mind, you can't stay patient or equanimous about it. You have to make whatever effort is needed to get rid of it and to nourish skillful qualities in its place by bringing in other factors of the path: right resolve and right effort....
Some teachers define mindfulness as “non-reactivity” or “radical acceptance.” If you look for these words in the Buddha's vocabulary, the closest you'll find are equanimity and patience. Equanimity means learning to put aside your preferences so that you can watch what's actually there. Patience is the ability not to get worked up over the things you don't like, to stick with difficult situations even when they don't resolve as quickly as you want them to. But in establishing mindfulness you stay with unpleasant things not just to accept them but to watch and understand them. Once you've clearly seen that a particular quality like aversion or lust is harmful for the mind, you can't stay patient or equanimous about it. You have to make whatever effort is needed to get rid of it and to nourish skillful qualities in its place by bringing in other factors of the path: right resolve and right effort...."
Source:
Mindfulness Defined by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Ajaan Geoff)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/mindfulnessdefined.html
:buck:
"When you sit and meditate, even if you don't gain any intuitive insights, make sure at least that you know this much: When the breath comes in, you know. When it goes out, you know. When it's long, you know. When it's short, you know. Whether it's comfortable or uncomfortable, you know. If you can know this much, you're doing fine."
Source: Keeping the Breath in Mind and Lessons in Samadhi: "The Art of Letting Go" August 17, 1956.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#art
:buck: