Anapanasati/Satipatthana Suttas "Tetrads": Tich Nhat Hanh, Ajaan Geoff

Comments

• compassionate_warrior Veteran

  June 2011

  This is quite a study, Bucky. Notice also 5 & 6. In 5, it's AG who uses the more evocative word, "rapture" , compared to "joy". But in 6, the tables turn, and it's TNH who uses the more vivid word: "bliss", compared to mere "pleasure". That seems like they're both being inconsistent with themselves, whatever that observation is worth. : /

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• BuckyG

  June 2011

  Thanks compassionate_warrior:
  I noticed that too. I think the Pali words are "piti & sukkha," respectively. :buck:

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• TiaP

  June 2011

  I found it curious that Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (or maybe just his translator) describes Piti as ‘contentment’ and Sukha as ‘joy’ (at least in his book Mindfulness with Breathing) because Piti is the more coarse right, Sukha the more refined, but I actually interpret the word ‘contentment’ as the more tranquil of the two
  
  But since then I’ve seen the definitions of Piti and Sukha made in many different ways that could all basically be interpreted as a happy feeling, so I guess it's all semantics, as long as we understand the meanings of words in their context.
  
  In terms of Piti I think of it as ‘stimulating/excited happiness/joy’ and Sukha as ‘soothing/tranquil happiness/joy’. I think/hope I’ve got that right!
  

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• BuckyG

  June 2011

  I found it curious that Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (or maybe just his translator) describes Piti as ‘contentment’ and Sukha as ‘joy’ (at least in his book Mindfulness with Breathing) because Piti is the more coarse right, Sukha the more refined, but I actually interpret the word ‘contentment’ as the more tranquil of the two

  Do you of a non-pdf version of this. I'd like to start adding to comparisons, but can't do pdg right now and can't find a version of that online not pdf. I've tried hard too. I can handle the other two or three on ATI.

  But since then I’ve seen the definitions of Piti and Sukha made in many different ways that could all basically be interpreted as a happy feeling, so I guess it's all semantics, as long as we understand the meanings of words in their context.

  Word. But I also think there's mucho value in see how great teachers from as many Buddhist traditions as possible have dealt these parts of the suttas.

  In terms of Piti I think of it as ‘stimulating/excited happiness/joy’ and Sukha as ‘soothing/tranquil happiness/joy’. I think/hope I’ve got that right!
  

  That makes sense to me. I think of it as the feel-real-good Tetrad. :buck:
  
  

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• TiaP

  June 2011 edited June 2011

  Do you of a non-pdf version of this. I'd like to start adding to comparisons, but can't do pdg right now and can't find a version of that online not pdf. I've tried hard too. I can handle the other two or three on ATI.

  I don't sorry, just got a paperback. Not sure what ATI stands for either, some techno term I'm not familiar with?
  
  When I was meditating this morning I noticed at one point Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee) , then out-breath soothing calming feeling settles in (ahhh) until Piti finally subsides and fades away. Sorry bit off topic, but yep it certainly is a nice tetrad to visit!

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• BuckyG

  June 2011

  Not sure what ATI stands for either, some techno term I'm not familiar with?

  sorry, my bad... ATI=accesstoinsight.org/where i got the Ajaan Geoff translation.
  
  When I was meditating this morning I noticed at one point Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee) , then out-breath soothing calming feeling settles in (ahhh) until Piti finally subsides and fades away. Sorry bit off topic, but yep it certainly is a nice tetrad to visit!
  
  I don't think it's off topic. It's just that the last time I shared a meditation experience online I was completely misunderstood and ridiculed. Is it proper etiquette to share mediation experience? I think so. But it seems it often gets misinterpreted. Maybe I'm being over sensitive and/or paranoid? :buck:
  
  

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• DhammaDhatu Veteran

  June 2011 edited June 2011

  3: sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī
  AG: sensitive to the entire body
  TNH: experiencing body
  
  4: passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ
  AG: calming bodily fabrication
  TNH: calming body

  hi Bucky
  
  It is important to understand the word "kaya" means "group" or "bodies". It does not exclusively refer the to physical body as a whole.
  
  Thus in the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha states: "I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies" (Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā)
  
  At stage 3, the Pali is "sabba kaya" (sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī), which means "all bodies", the same as the phrase sabbe satta ("all beings") and sabbe dhamma ("all things").
  
  Experiencing "all bodies" means experiencing both the in-&-out breath and physical body together and experiencing the interrelationship & interconditioning between them. As the Buddha said: ""I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies"
  
  Stage 4 is calming the "kaya sankhara" or "body fabricator". The in-&-out breath is the body fabricator because it fabricates/conditions the state of the body (as is learned in Step 3)
  
  AG needs to develop some courage & the qualities of a real "rogue monk", like he did in his "The Shape of Suffering A STUDY OF DEPENDENT CO-ARISING" and depart from his long held conformity to the Singalese Mahavihara Commentary School of Theravada Buddhism.

  Tetrad IV:
  AG: mental qualities (in and of themselves)
  TNH: perceptions (objects of mind as objects of mind)

  As explained in the current "Hindu/Buddhist Dharma" thread, the word dhamma has many meanings. Here, the word 'dhamma' does not mean 'mental qualities'. Here, the words "dhammesu dhammānupassī" mean "truths" or "ultimate realities". For example, how can "impermanence" be a "mental quality"?
  
  (dhammesu dhammānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu viharati: then that bhikkhu is considered one who lives constantly contemplating Dhamma in dhammas; truths within truths)

  13: AG: focusing on inconstancy
  TNH: contemplating impermanence
  
  14: AG: focusing on dispassion/fading
  TNH: contemplating non-craving
  
  15: AG: focusing on cessation
  TNH: focusing on nirvana
  
  16: AG: focusing on relinquishment
  TNH: contemplating letting go

  Imo, the differences here are not anything significant. Nirvana = Nirodha. Nirvana is defined as the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion.
  
  Regards
  
  

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• Jeffrey Veteran

  June 2011 edited June 2011

  One thing that struck out at me is how can we extrapolate from these bullets? You must have gotten quite an impression of both teachers. But how am I to cast judgement based on the words 'sense' 'experience'?

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• Jeffrey Veteran

  June 2011

  "When I was meditating this morning I noticed at one point Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee) , then out-breath soothing calming feeling settles in (ahhh) until Piti finally subsides and fades away. Sorry bit off topic, but yep it certainly is a nice tetrad to visit!"
  
  Thats really interesting..
  
  

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• DhammaDhatu Veteran

  June 2011 edited June 2011

  When I was meditating this morning I noticed at one point Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee) , then out-breath soothing calming feeling settles in (ahhh) until Piti finally subsides and fades away. Sorry bit off topic, but yep it certainly is a nice tetrad to visit!

  hi
  
  imo, your meditation has not yet visited the 2nd tetrad. my view is you are extrapolating theory onto experience. Regardless of how it feels, as your mind is predominantly pre-occupied with the in-&-out breath, it remains in the 1st tetrad.
  
  The 2nd tetrad occurs when the breath is calmed away so it mostly disappears and rapture arises in the mind (or brain) as the predominant meditation object.
  
  Best wishes
  
  

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• DhammaDhatu Veteran

  June 2011 edited June 2011

  Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee) , then out-breath soothing calming feeling settles in (ahhh) until Piti finally subsides and fades away. Sorry bit off topic, but yep it certainly is a nice tetrad to visit!

  hi Bucky
  
  however, what you have written above is valuable, for exploring the sutta further
  
  the sutta states:

  cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.
  
  (7) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.
  
  (8) He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

  Contrary to Ajahn Geoff's translation of "mental fabrication", rapture & happiness are the mind fabricator/conditioner (citta sankhara) because these feelings (vedana) fabricate/condition delight & thinking in your mind, that is, your mind regarded it as "nice".
  
  So the very fact the excitement of rapture caused your mind to want to talk about it demonstrates how rapture and happiness are the "mind conditioner", because these feelings condition defilements (lust; greed), delight/attachment and various thoughts and then words.
  
  The Buddha listed lust for rapture of jhana as the 6th fetter.
  
  Kind regards

  With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present & future ideas cognizable via the mind.
  
  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.018.than.html

  
  
  
  

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• BuckyG

  June 2011

  Hi Dhamma Dhatu:
  Whose translation is this?

  cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati; ‘passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati.
  
  (7) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.
  
  (8) He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

  :buck:
  
  

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• DhammaDhatu Veteran

  June 2011 edited June 2011

  naturally, it is Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's translation. but this is irrelevent
  
  perception & feeling are the mind (citta) sankhara (conditioner). this is basic dhamma reality
  
  the citta is "the thinker" or "emotional heart". the citta is akin to sankhara khanda. the citta is not feeling or vedana khanda
  
  as quoted above (from MN 18), feeling & perception conditions the mind or citta
  
  pleasant feeling conditions lust/passion (see MN 148 below)
  
  unpleasant feeling conditions anger/resistence (see MN 148 below)
  
  neither feeling conditions delusion/confusion/ignorance (see MN 148 below)
  
  the "sankhara" in the Anapanasati Sutta is a cause here, as MN 44 (below) logically & realistically describes
  
  run what i have said over with Ajahn Geoff. i trust he will not dispute this because the reality of what I am explaining Ajahn Geoff explained in "The Shape of Suffering A STUDY OF DEPENDENT CO-ARISING"
  
  kind regards

  "Now, lady, what are fabrications?"
  
  "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications."
  
  "But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?"
  
  "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
  
  "But why are in-&-out breaths bodily fabrications? Why are directed thought & evaluation verbal fabrications? Why are perceptions & feelings mental fabrications?"
  
  "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
  
  NOTE: how the underlined part above does not logically make sense. But amended as follows, it makes perfect sense: "Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabricators.
  
  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

  If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed.
  
  If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession gets obsessed.
  
  If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession gets obsessed.
  
  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html

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• BuckyG

  June 2011

  Thank you Dhamma Dhatu. I'm finding your posts here very insightful. :buck:

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• DhammaDhatu Veteran

  June 2011 edited June 2011

  Ajahn Geoff explained in "The Shape of Suffering A STUDY OF DEPENDENT CO-ARISING"

  As you walk to the door of your parents’ house, thinking about the situation (2b—verbal fabrication), you pull up memories of things your uncle has done in the past (2c—mental fabrication). This provokes anger, causing your breathing to become labored and tight (2a—bodily fabrication). This makes you uncomfortable (2c—mental fabrication), and you are aware of how uncomfortable you feel (3—consciousness). Hormones are released
  into your bloodstream (4 f through 4i—Form).

  Above, Ajahn Geoff states:
  
  (1) "(2c—mental fabrication). This provokes anger". Because it "provokes" anger, the memory/perception is not the mental fabrication. It is the mind fabricator because it provokes the mind (citta) to fabricate anger.
  
  Similarly, when breathing becomes labored and tight, this causes the body to become tight. One may develop tightness in the jaw, neck and even a muscle spasm in the back. breathing is the bodily fabricator
  
  
  
  

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• DhammaDhatu Veteran

  June 2011

  Thank you Dhamma Dhatu. I'm finding your posts here very insightful. :buck:

  Thanks
  

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• BuckyG

  June 2011 edited June 2011

  When I was meditating this morning I noticed at one point Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee) , then out-breath soothing calming feeling settles in (ahhh) until Piti finally subsides and fades away. Sorry bit off topic, but yep it certainly is a nice tetrad to visit!

  Hi Dhamma Dhatu,
  It's completely my fault, but this quote is TiaP's. It's my fault because I cited it (above) and forgot to put quotes around it or attribute to TiaP. Sorry for the confusion. :buck:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• BuckyG

  June 2011

  I like TNH and AG. One of the reasons I started this discussion was because I've heard AG in an audoidharma.org talks specifically crticize Thich Nhan Hanh's use and similar uses of mindfulness as contrary to Buddha's teachings on mindfulness. But I'll find the specific talk and mark time (I think it was in his Mindfulness & Concentration series) of the talks, AG has also said (in print):
  
  :buck:
  
  "Sometimes mindfulness is defined as appreciating the moment for all the little pleasures it can offer: the taste of a raisin, the feel of a cup of tea in your hands. In the Buddha's vocabulary, this appreciation is called contentment. Contentment is useful when you're experiencing physical hardship, but it's not always useful in the area of the mind. In fact the Buddha once said that the secret to his Awakening was that he didn't allow himself to rest content with whatever attainment he had reached. He kept reaching for something higher until there was nowhere higher to reach. So contentment has to know its time and place. Mindfulness, if it's not glommed together with contentment, can help keep that fact in mind....
  
  Popular books on meditation, though, offer a lot of other definitions for mindfulness, a lot of other duties it's supposed to fulfill—so many that the poor word gets totally stretched out of shape. In some cases, it even gets defined as Awakening, as in the phrase, “A moment of mindfulness is a moment of Awakening”—something the Buddha would never say, because mindfulness is conditioned and nirvana is not.
  
  These are not just minor matters for nitpicking scholars to argue over. If you don't see the differences among the qualities you're bringing to your meditation, they glom together, making it hard for real insight to arise. If you decide that one of the factors on the path to Awakening is Awakening itself, it's like reaching the middle of a road and then falling asleep right there. You never get to the end of the road, and in the meantime you're bound to get run over by aging, illness, and death. So you need to get your directions straight, and that requires, among other things, knowing precisely what mindfulness is and what it's not.
  
  I've heard mindfulness defined as “affectionate attention” or “compassionate attention,” but affection and compassion aren't the same as mindfulness. They're separate things. If you bring them to your meditation, be clear about the fact that they're acting in addition to mindfulness, because skill in meditation requires seeing when qualities like compassion are helpful and when they're not. As the Buddha says, there are times when affection is a cause for suffering, so you have to watch out.
  
  Sometimes mindfulness is defined as appreciating the moment for all the little pleasures it can offer: the taste of a raisin, the feel of a cup of tea in your hands. In the Buddha's vocabulary, this appreciation is called contentment. Contentment is useful when you're experiencing physical hardship, but it's not always useful in the area of the mind. In fact the Buddha once said that the secret to his Awakening was that he didn't allow himself to rest content with whatever attainment he had reached. He kept reaching for something higher until there was nowhere higher to reach. So contentment has to know its time and place. Mindfulness, if it's not glommed together with contentment, can help keep that fact in mind.
  
  Some teachers define mindfulness as “non-reactivity” or “radical acceptance.” If you look for these words in the Buddha's vocabulary, the closest you'll find are equanimity and patience. Equanimity means learning to put aside your preferences so that you can watch what's actually there. Patience is the ability not to get worked up over the things you don't like, to stick with difficult situations even when they don't resolve as quickly as you want them to. But in establishing mindfulness you stay with unpleasant things not just to accept them but to watch and understand them. Once you've clearly seen that a particular quality like aversion or lust is harmful for the mind, you can't stay patient or equanimous about it. You have to make whatever effort is needed to get rid of it and to nourish skillful qualities in its place by bringing in other factors of the path: right resolve and right effort....
  
  Some teachers define mindfulness as “non-reactivity” or “radical acceptance.” If you look for these words in the Buddha's vocabulary, the closest you'll find are equanimity and patience. Equanimity means learning to put aside your preferences so that you can watch what's actually there. Patience is the ability not to get worked up over the things you don't like, to stick with difficult situations even when they don't resolve as quickly as you want them to. But in establishing mindfulness you stay with unpleasant things not just to accept them but to watch and understand them. Once you've clearly seen that a particular quality like aversion or lust is harmful for the mind, you can't stay patient or equanimous about it. You have to make whatever effort is needed to get rid of it and to nourish skillful qualities in its place by bringing in other factors of the path: right resolve and right effort...."
  
  Source:
  Mindfulness Defined by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Ajaan Geoff)
  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/mindfulnessdefined.html
  :buck:
  
  
  
  

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• BuckyG

  June 2011

  Hi TiaP:

  When I was meditating this morning I noticed at one point Piti tends to rise up on the in-breath, then Sukha settles in on the out-breath. That's what it seemed to feel like - in-breath happy stimulating feeling arises (yippee) , then out-breath soothing calming feeling settles in (ahhh) until Piti finally subsides and fades away.

  Ajaan Lee said:
  
  "When you sit and meditate, even if you don't gain any intuitive insights, make sure at least that you know this much: When the breath comes in, you know. When it goes out, you know. When it's long, you know. When it's short, you know. Whether it's comfortable or uncomfortable, you know. If you can know this much, you're doing fine."
  
  Source: Keeping the Breath in Mind and Lessons in Samadhi: "The Art of Letting Go" August 17, 1956.
  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#art
  :buck:
  
  

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