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Rebirth, Karma etc.
Today I was contemplating rebirth and my understanding of it is that everyone contains energy. We have Kamma based on our actions which affect that energy which is reborn. What I'm confused about is how can we be reborn with our Kamma if there is no spirit or soul. I don't particularly believe in a soul, spirit, or rebirth I just want to understand how it works in the Buddhist sense. If we are to be reborn and our past actions affect our rebirth doesn't there have to be a vessel to carry the energy and contain it as a form to enter a new life?
I've kind of always thought our energy just goes back into the universe surrounding us but, for rebirth to work I'd think there would need to be a membrane containing it the way our skin contains our body.
I've kind of always thought our energy just goes back into the universe surrounding us but, for rebirth to work I'd think there would need to be a membrane containing it the way our skin contains our body.
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So does anybody have an answer to Wuji's question without the condescending and sarcastic tone? This question is too important for that.
In Mahayana, it's the "very subtle mind" that survives death and moves on to another birth. This form of consciousness carries with it the karmic imprint of past lives. So it's kind of like how information binds to electricity, like radio waves. Karma binds to subtle consciousness. That's how I see it.
Will people cut Wuji some slack? It's a good and valid question. If you don't approve, move on to another thread, please.
You say the answer comes from meditative attentiveness. Can you elaborate on that?
Store-house consciousness (ālayavijñāna)
It may have developed from concepts in some early Buddhist schools.[3]
Store-house consciousness accumulates all potential energy for the aggregate of the 'bodymind' (Sanskrit: namarupa), the mental (nama) and physical (rupa) manifestation of one's existence, and supplies the substance to all existences. It also receives impressions from all functions of the other consciousnesses and retains them as potential energy for their further manifestations and activities. Since it serves as the basis for the production of the other seven consciousnesses (called the "evolving" or "transforming" consciousnesses), it is also known as the base consciousness (mūla-vijñāna) or causal consciousness. Since it serves as the container for all experiential impressions (termed metaphorically as bija or "seeds"), it is also called the seed consciousness (種子識) or container consciousness.
According to Yogacara teachings, the seeds stored in the store consciousness of sentient beings are not pure (note that each being has his own one and only, formless and no-place-to-abide Store-house consciousness. Also note that of each of us, our "being" is created by our own Store consciousness according to the karma seeds stored in it, and in that sense, in "coming and going" we definitely do not own the " no-coming and no-going" Store-house consciousness, rather we are owned by it. Just as a human image shown in a monitor can never be described as lasting for any instant, since "he" is just the production of electron currents of data stored and flow from the hard disk of the computer, so do seed currents drain from the Store consciousness, never lasting from one moment to the next. ) , and through the process of seeds purging, the dharma practitioner can became a Arahat when the four defilement Mental Function(心所法)－－ self-delusion (我癡), self-view (我見), egotism (我慢), and self-love (我愛), of the seventh consciousness are purified. By then the polluted Mental Functions of the first six consciousnesses would have been cleansed, since the seventh or the Manas consciousness dictates whether or not the seeds drain from the eighth Seed consciousness, and whether or not the content breaks through becoming a "function" to be perceived by us in the mental or physical world. Furthermore,in contrast to an Arahat, a Buddha is one with all his seeds stored in the eighth Seed consciousness. Cleansed and substituted, bad for good, one for one, his polluted-seeds-containing eighth consciousness (Alaya Consciousness) becomes an all-seeds-purified eighth consciousness (Pure consciousness 無垢識 ), and he becomes a Buddha.
According to Walpola Rahula, all the elements of the Yogacara storehouse-consciousness are already found in the Pali Canon.[4] He writes that the three layers of the mind (citta, manas, and vijnana) as presented by Asanga are also used in the Pali Canon: "Thus we can see that Vijnana represents the simple reaction or response of the sense organs when they come in contact with external objects. This is the uppermost or superficial aspect or layer of the Vijnanaskanda. Manas represents the aspect of its mental functioning, thinking, reasoning, conceiving ideas, etc. Citta which is here called Alayavijnana, represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future possibilities."[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Consciousnesses
My point is that sometimes opinions are like a certain body part- everybody has one, if you get my drift.
(Moderators- I mean a bellybutton when I say "body part".):D
The question is particularly good because Buddhism encourages us to investigate.
If there was an answer in the sutras; it wouldn’t be the answer. We would have to investigate anyways.
I hate it (nothing personal) when “opinions” are dismissed as something inferior or bad.
It is just Buddhist fundamentalism to throw in some quotes and believe things are settled.
There is no answer.
“Store-house consciousness” and “most subtle stream of consciousness” are merely words.
We can add some Pali and it still is just words.
The phenomenon of rebirth simply has not been objectively observed.
Before we can begin explaining how it works we would need some evidence it even occurs.
I agree it would require some medium of storage and transportation of information.
If there would be proof of consciousness surviving brain death, that would be a start.
If you believe karma is a force of nature working outside our consciousness, there would have to be another medium.
The idea of rebirth – I think – will always bite the idea of anatta.
When “I” am reborn there must be an “I”.
When someone else is born (inheriting my karma), why would I care?
Then what is the point?
The same with rebirth. As long as we have unfinished business, there will be rebirth. There is no fundamental you being reborn, but instead these unfinished things (our attachments) are reborn. The most deep thing we are attached to is consciousness, so it's logical to see why some Buddhist call what is reborn the 'subtle mind / consciousness'. Seen like this, it is not just a Mahayana idea. Some people can remember past lives, these are -let's say- stored within this 'subtle mind / consciousness stream'. One could even call it a spirit, the difference is not that great. However doing that and you risk being chased by half the Buddhist society.
As long as we remember things are without an inherent self, it is not wrong to call it a spirit however. We also say words like 'person' or 'me' and 'you', 'car' and 'house' to describe things. These are still just words and don't touch the reality.
Knowing why rebirth happens is the same as knowing how it happens. This is described in the sutta of dependent origination. Basically it is our ignorance that fuels craving for new rebirth, taking us away from nibbana.
With metta,
Sabre
Throwing karma refers to specifically at the end of the your life, the type of karma you create as you enter life. In that regards, let's say you have been a very virtuous person, very good all your life and tried to be developed and positive about the things you do, and at the end of your life, maybe things do not go well and you start to become very bitter for whatever reason. You do not handle negative situations well. Maybe the country goes to war for example. Maybe you become angry with that. Maybe become violent and kill others. The throwing karma for that is very bad. Although their life has been good, at the end circumstances went quite sour. Therefore their throwing karma is going to put them into a situation where violence is much more prevalent. Or they will be prone to being drawn to a violent country or violent circumstances. Also, mother and father of a character which would be more prone that way. So you could take a rebirth in another violent country because your state of consciousness at the end of your life is very violent.
Because completing karma was quite good, maybe you will be fortune to travel to a country which was good! I am trying to present the idea in stories from a Buddhist perspective on how karma works from one lifetime to the next. The general example they use is that in throwing karma, you could have someone who is good during their life, but at the end of their life becomes involved in negativity for some reason. They die and for example, be born as a dog. But because they have good completing karma, they will born as a dog and get purchased by a rich family so they will live in the life of luxury in a dogs body. That is termed as bad throwing karma but good completing karma.
In reverse to that, a negative person could get imprisoned and have a change of heart. They try then to be a better person, and become sincere. In that way, when they die, they have pure aspirations of being good. That throwing karma would be good and they could take human rebirth. But in the next lifetime, because completing karma was not very good, having previously been a thief or such, they might have to meet time and again bad circumstances, getting their possessions stolen, having a lot of interferences, violence happen to the, they are receiving the results of bad completing karma, but they have good throwing karma because they took a human rebirth.
http://www.buddhistconsulting.com/Teachings/karma4.html
SherabDorje, Dakini, Talisman and others thanks for the references and zenff that was a great answer. I think that store-house concsciousness and seeds do in fact suggest something like a soul or spirit. Perhaps they are different ideas semantically but similar in respects to carrying on consciousness.
jll: The point is to find answers so I can make up my own mind. That is generally why one ask questions.
Nibbuti - Buddha asked us to investigate and make up our own minds. I'm simply investigating not suffering from regret karma but, that did make me laugh. I've had many girlfriends none of which helped me better understand the rebirth process. This is why I ask the question on a Buddhist forum. Also after 30 years of meditation the answer hasn't come but thanks for all your unhelpful suggestions. I take your comment "questions connected with wishes and fantasies like rebirth or kamma" to mean you do not believe in them. Perhaps this isn't a topic for you unless you have some evidence to the contrary that helped make up your mind gained from your girlfriends and "meditative attentiveness".
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/fuang/itself.html#people :buck:
From what I understand of my teacher (mahayana) she says karma is an appearance like the sun rises in the east. For it to operate it must (would) be outside of time and space.
karma needs time and space to operate...
"According to Walpola Rahula, all the elements of the Yogacara storehouse-consciousness are already found in the Pali Canon.[4] He writes that the three layers of the mind (citta, manas, and vijnana) as presented by Asanga are also used in the Pali Canon: "Thus we can see that Vijnana represents the simple reaction or response of the sense organs when they come in contact with external objects. This is the uppermost or superficial aspect or layer of the Vijnanaskanda. Manas represents the aspect of its mental functioning, thinking, reasoning, conceiving ideas, etc. Citta which is here called Alayavijnana, represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future possibilities."[5]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaya
Isn't Walpola Rahula a Sri Lankan Theravadin?
So I think we have ourselves an answer to the OP. This is why it's an "imponderable". But is it about atoms? Is consciousness, "very subtle mind", "seed consciousness" about atoms? Does it have a physical component? You're the physicist, Jeffrey, enlighten us.
So maybe the 13th liked sweets too, but a little too much...?
I know. Bad joke, but interesting story if it's true.
The Buddha never stated any "one" is "reborn." He said that with Becoming as a requisite condition, there arises "birth." This is what is important. "Birth" leads to old age, death, lamentation, stress, suffering, despair. Wishing for either the continuation or non-continuation of any of the aggregates including consciousness is "Becoming." Becoming leads to Birth leads to Old Age and Death.
We should move beyond these types of imponderable and unnecessary inquiries and focus on how the path can be used to escape this endless cycle of dissatisfaction, suffering, loss, and despair.
“This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening
of good & evil actions.”
This describes the mundane or everyday consciousness- the words "This speaker, this knower" clearly demonstrate that, IMO. Certainly it is this which is not-self according to the Buddha and "this speaker" would not continue from lifetime to lifetime.
It's a perfect example of the "gross self" that the Buddha taught, correctly, that is really not-self.
karma between rebirths is not yet explainable with science...