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ZEN.....Sitting quietly focusing on breath OR using KOANS?? Which one??

buddhacoebuddhacoe
edited June 2011 in Buddhism Basics
In zen..is koans mainly for MONKS???

or should us lay people use koans aswell in our practice??

I usually just sit-still-silent and focus on breath if the mind starts to wonder......

Does anyone here use koans??

Comments

  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    Rinzai school uses Koans. Soto focuses primarily on zazen. Use the tools that you require for your specific path.
  • buddhacoebuddhacoe
    Rinzai school uses Koans. Soto focuses primarily on zazen. Use the tools that you require for your specific path.
    Thank you!!
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I think its probably best to use both. I don't follow zen but in TB its important to both study and contemplate on the teachings and practice meditation.
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    Koan study requires contact with a master on a "more" regular basis.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited June 2011
    My understanding is that although Rinzai is associated with koan study and Soto with shikantaza or just-sitting, still, Soto studies can and often do include koan practice. In Zen, there are sometimes said to be 1,700 formal koans.

    Further, I think it is impossible to practice Zen -- or even just pay a little attention to your life -- without running into 'informal' koans ... riddles that are insoluble by intellect and emotion alone. One formal koan, for example, could just as easily confront someone who never even heard of Buddhism. It's pretty simple: "What is this?" For example, is a "rock" a rock? Or "Who am I?" Or, if you want a real mind-bender, "I love you."

    As my teacher once said to me, "Buddha didn't study 1,700 koans." But this doesn't mean the Buddha didn't study koans. How could he help it? He was human and being human is not limited to monks.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    My understanding is that although Rinzai is associated with koan study and Soto with shikantaza or just-sitting, still, Soto studies can and often do include koan practice. In Zen, there are sometimes said to be 1,700 formal koans.

    Further, I think it is impossible to practice Zen -- or even just pay a little attention to your life -- without running into 'informal' koans ... riddles that are insoluble by intellect and emotion alone. One formal koan, for example, could just as easily confront someone who never even heard of Buddhism. It's pretty simple: "What is this?" For example, is a "rock" a rock? Or "Who am I?" Or, if you want a real mind-bender, "I love you."

    As my teacher once said to me, "Buddha didn't study 1,700 koans." But this doesn't mean the Buddha didn't study koans. How could he help it? He was human and being human is not limited to monks.
    Thanks!
    This was interesting!
    1700 sounds like a big number...Lol.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Koans are for laypeople too, but their proper use requires consultation with a teacher.
  • Malachy12Malachy12
    I'm a layperson and I love laying around and reading different koans. Ho ho! What a crappy pun.
    @seeker242 proper shmroper ;)
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    ^^^dork
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    My understanding is that although Rinzai is associated with koan study and Soto with shikantaza or just-sitting, still, Soto studies can and often do include koan practice. In Zen, there are sometimes said to be 1,700 formal koans.

    Further, I think it is impossible to practice Zen -- or even just pay a little attention to your life -- without running into 'informal' koans ... riddles that are insoluble by intellect and emotion alone. One formal koan, for example, could just as easily confront someone who never even heard of Buddhism. It's pretty simple: "What is this?" For example, is a "rock" a rock? Or "Who am I?" Or, if you want a real mind-bender, "I love you."

    As my teacher once said to me, "Buddha didn't study 1,700 koans." But this doesn't mean the Buddha didn't study koans. How could he help it? He was human and being human is not limited to monks.
    Thanks!
    This was interesting!
    1700 sounds like a big number...Lol.
    @leonbasin -- If my mind weren't such a mass of Swiss cheese I could tell you the name of the person (maybe Dogen?) who burned the other half of the koan collection of that time. 1,700 was all that was left. Why or how the 1,700 escaped the flames, I also don't know. It seems to me that if you were out to burn one, you might as well do the lot ... unless they were somehow in different places at the time of the fire.

    Someone will fill in the blanks here I have no doubt.

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    My understanding is that although Rinzai is associated with koan study and Soto with shikantaza or just-sitting, still, Soto studies can and often do include koan practice. In Zen, there are sometimes said to be 1,700 formal koans.

    Further, I think it is impossible to practice Zen -- or even just pay a little attention to your life -- without running into 'informal' koans ... riddles that are insoluble by intellect and emotion alone. One formal koan, for example, could just as easily confront someone who never even heard of Buddhism. It's pretty simple: "What is this?" For example, is a "rock" a rock? Or "Who am I?" Or, if you want a real mind-bender, "I love you."

    As my teacher once said to me, "Buddha didn't study 1,700 koans." But this doesn't mean the Buddha didn't study koans. How could he help it? He was human and being human is not limited to monks.
    Thanks!
    This was interesting!
    1700 sounds like a big number...Lol.
    @leonbasin -- If my mind weren't such a mass of Swiss cheese I could tell you the name of the person (maybe Dogen?) who burned the other half of the koan collection of that time. 1,700 was all that was left. Why or how the 1,700 escaped the flames, I also don't know. It seems to me that if you were out to burn one, you might as well do the lot ... unless they were somehow in different places at the time of the fire.

    Someone will fill in the blanks here I have no doubt.

    @genkaku why did he(whoever he was) wish to burn them?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2011
    The koans were already of the nature of fire and dogen just added a spark.


    Sounded cool to me :D
  • jinzangjinzang Veteran
    It was Ta Hui who burnt the koan collection of his master, the Blue Cliff Record. Perhaps that is what you are remembering.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahui_Zonggao

    Probably he burnt them because he thought discussing them led to a superficial, literary approach to Zen.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    I'm a layperson and I love laying around and reading different koans. Ho ho! What a crappy pun.
    @seeker242 proper shmroper ;)
    LOL. Yes they are fun to play with but you NEVER know if you get the right answer unless you talk with a teacher. It's quite easy to think you have the answer when you're not even close. Sorry for being a party pooper. :lol:
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    no dude. thats not the answer of the koan. its like this. dude dude duuuuuuude
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    It was Ta Hui who burnt the koan collection of his master, the Blue Cliff Record. Perhaps that is what you are remembering.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahui_Zonggao

    Probably he burnt them because he thought discussing them led to a superficial, literary approach to Zen.

    Thanks @jinzang. You're probably right, though somehow I thought it was someone with a higher profile than Ta Hui ... who happens to be one of my favorite guys. You'd think I might remember ....
  • SpacelessSpaceless
    In this regard, focusing of breath in itself is koan, dun you aware so! Conversely, likewise :p
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited June 2011
    There is no koan practice without also meditation (zazen). It's really personal/traditional preference whether meditation alone or meditation combined with a koan as the object of contemplation.
  • Malachy12Malachy12
    @seeker242 Ultimate authority is in your own hands. If you throw authority on a teacher they should throw it right back.
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