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Constructive Criticism of Tibetan Buddhism

VincenziVincenzi Veteran
edited June 2011 in General Banter
since the thread was closed, I propose starting a similar one but without the tendency for false speach that Cloud mentioned.
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Comments

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited June 2011
    If you guys discuss ways Tibetan/Vajrayana Buddhism might be improved, for the better of its practitioners now and in the future, that should be okay. Let's just not make it TB/Vaj Bitchfest '11, ok? It shouldn't be about just saying you dislike TB; it should be useful, beneficial, be an account of issues that you may have with TB and what you think would resolve those issues. Or something.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    If you guys discuss ways Tibetan/Vajrayana Buddhism might be improved, for the better of its practitioners now and in the future, that should be okay. Let's just not make it TB/Vaj Bitchfest '11, ok? It shouldn't be about just saying you dislike TB; it should be useful, beneficial, be an account of issues that you may have with TB and what you think would resolve those issues. Or something.
    Thank you. Although I now have a rather negative view of TB, I stopped reading the previous thread because it became far too negative.

    I'll simply mention two things. First, why isn't TB held accountable by some governmental agency (which is not uncommon in Asia)? And/or, there are at least three international Buddhist organizations that ought to be a little braver and take a position on practices in any branch of Buddhism. At least here in the west, we certainly have been critical of Muslims who do not speak out against abuses of that religion, it seems as if the international Buddhist organizations would see a benefit to improving the perception of Buddhism through setting some standards that ought to be recognized by legit Buddhist divisions.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    We've been discussing useful changes and reforms. Like: how to limit entry to monasteries to adults, however the age of majority might be defined. And introducing (somehow) an oversight body that would introduce accountability into the system. And I agree with Vinlyn. But the problem that was pointed out earlier, is that if you have an international Buddhist organization taking disciplinary action against members of a different tradition, that could sow the seeds of major discord between traditions, that's why the orgs that Vin listed earlier don't do that sort of thing. To have TB authorities policing their own isn't going to work, because there's corruption and malfeasance at the top, in some instances. So, what to do?

    (I thought the "Venting" thread got pretty humorous, with the comments on the horns and throat-singing. ^_^)

  • TB has been so identified with a political movement, I'm not sure it's possible to separate their Sangha from the "government in exile," but they should try.

    The second thing they can do is admit they need to change some of their practices and focus on the elimination of suffering, not magical beliefs such as their tulku "living Buddha" habit of taking children to be raised as special monks and claiming that's their dead previous Lama reincarnated. It's simply wrong to do that to children. "The search for a reincarnation is a mystical process involving clues left by the deceased and visions among leading monks on where to look." That should not be what Buddhism is about, magic and secret teachings and power tightly controlled by a chosen few.

    But I'm not sure how much of this is possible.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Yeah, either am I. Someone found a UTube film about the tulku search process that actually shows the lamas guiding the hand of the child to the right objects, but I haven't seen the film yet. If I find the reference again, I'll post it or PM it to you.

    I don't know which is more unrealistic: to think they'll give up the tulku tradition, or the abuse "traditions". *sigh* I think a lot of this is a matter of a medieval culture catching up to the 21st century.
  • the tulku tradition or concept isn't that bad... what may be unethical behaviour is that the tulkus are chosed as children, and forced* to be monks.

    *not sure if they are
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited June 2011
    It depends on how you define "forced". It's considered quite an honor for the parents to have a child chosen as tulku, and the little kids don't really know what's happening, except that they miss their mommies. idk.
    Some say the choices are made for political reasons, often tulkuships are kept in an extended family.
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited June 2011
    @Dakini

    at the very least, tulkus should be allowed to resign as monks.

    tulku just means "you were a really nice person in your prior life"... but that doesn't means that such person's only choice is to become a monk.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited June 2011
    I think it also depends if the child is actually the reincarnation of an enlightened master or if they are just being used for political reasons. If a child is a genuine spiritual master then it may actually be cruel to make them live a samsaric life. Though I suppose if their karma were pure enough it couldn't be any other way. Nagarjuna's parents were said to have had to make an offering of food to 300 monks just so he could live with them past the age of 7 weeks without dying.

    @Vincenzi Tulkus aren't required to become monks, there are many who aren't. And they can resign as monks too, many have done that as well.
  • @person

    then I see no problem with the tulku tradition.

    it will be up to each tulku to actually lead a life according to the expectations.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    But the problem that was pointed out earlier, is that if you have an international Buddhist organization taking disciplinary action against members of a different tradition, that could sow the seeds of major discord between traditions, that's why the orgs that Vin listed earlier don't do that sort of thing. To have TB authorities policing their own isn't going to work, because there's corruption and malfeasance at the top, in some instances. So, what to do?

    There is already discord among different traditions...in fact, that's why there are different divisions.

    The reason the orgs I listed don't do anything is because they haven't got the guts and/or they're part of the coverup.

  • It's just that, if they're a government in exile, they should hang up the robes and be a government. If they're a Sangha, they should pass the authority to rule over to a secular group and get down to the business of teaching the Dharma. Theocracy is a bad idea, as evidenced by the problems with the Muslim controlled nations.

    Don't forget, that child raised by the monks isn't just presented to the people as a spiritual advisor when he grows up (and the reincarnated high Lama will be a man, of course. No women allowed in the club.) The Lama was also placed on a throne and given secular authority of life and death over the Tibetan people. I think the Dalai Lama's decision to begin separating his office from the rulership is the first real progress they've made.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I think the Dalai Lama's decision to begin separating his office from the rulership is the first real progress they've made.
    It's an interesting development. He says it's pro-democracy, but so far the Tibetan people and the parliament have rebuffed him. They don't want to split the job, so he's having to persuade them. Parliament voted against the measure.
    The reason the orgs I listed don't do anything is because they haven't got the guts and/or they're part of the coverup.
    OK, I have a research project for you, Vinlyn. Next time you go to Thailand, see if you can make some connections, and discuss it with someone in one of those organizations you mentioned. Seriously. I'd really like to know what they say. You have a legitimate, sincere, and serious concern. You can even say you're speaking for a number of concerned Westerners.

  • It's an interesting development. He says it's pro-democracy, but so far the Tibetan people and the parliament have rebuffed him. They don't want to split the job, so he's having to persuade them. Parliament voted against the measure.
    Yep, figures. No matter what he says, upon his death a regency government will rule in his name while they find some little boy to raise as the next figurehead. The history of Tibet as a nation is so strange. Trying to wade through the history, here's what I can figure out.

    After a series of powerful Emperors ruled, the Mongolian Kublai Kahn invaded Tibet during what we would call their "dark ages", when the ruling family had fractured and there was no central ruling authority. There was literally nobody in charge and about the only institution managing to keep society working at all was the Buddhist temples. So the Kahn ordered the most senior monks rounded up and ordered the head monk to surrender Tibet to him, whether he had the power to do it or not. In return, this monk was given the authority by the conquerors to rule in the Kahn's name.

    And thus began a long line of what we would call "Priest Kings" who combined secular and religious authority. It was not unheard of. The King of England is also the head of the Church of England, for instance. But various factions of the Buddhist temples would actually go to war against each other. I would say at this point, the Sangha in Tibet was Buddhist in name only. Again, this isn't unique. Various Popes went to war against other claimants to the Papal throne.

    But the power politics of the Tibet Buddhist temples have nothing to do with the Dharma. Anyone who thinks this power has not and will not currupt the Buddha's Sangha has never studied people, politics, or history.

    The Dalai Lama says his reincarnation might be found in the West, and might be a girl? Fat chance. Once he's gone, the monks will reassert their power. That's human nature.


  • edited June 2011

    The Dalai Lama says his reincarnation might be found in the West, and might be a girl? Fat chance. Once he's gone, the monks will reassert their power. That's human nature.
    There's just too much human nature going on in religious structures, dagnab it! :grumble:



  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    The reason the orgs I listed don't do anything is because they haven't got the guts and/or they're part of the coverup.
    OK, I have a research project for you, Vinlyn. Next time you go to Thailand, see if you can make some connections, and discuss it with someone in one of those organizations you mentioned. Seriously. I'd really like to know what they say. You have a legitimate, sincere, and serious concern. You can even say you're speaking for a number of concerned Westerners.

    Unfortunately, after hoping to move to Thailand after retirement...and doing so...after my first year there the anarchic riots occurred. I left and vowed never to return again.

  • does anyone think that there should be a division of state and the monastic order?
    no more king dalai lama?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    does anyone think that there should be a division of state and the monastic order?
    no more king dalai lama?
    The Dalai Lama for one.
  • @person

    hehe, that's true :)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I think there is no state so its moot unless I am missing something? Is there a sovereign teritory? Or are you guys talking about actual Tibet? With the chinese and everything?

    If there is a sovereign territory in India I think they should have free elections. Let the people decide what they want.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I think it would be helpful if this was discussed within the Tibetan Buddhist community. Unfortunately the human nature is not to bring such matters to the floor. For example in my sangha I don't see people discussing the 'authority' 'abuse' 'sex in religion' 'casual affairs' concoction at all whatsoever in my sangha.

    Now granted those bulletin boards maybe get 10 posts a week (not threads). Most people don't want to make someone else uncomfortable and it is a big risk to seem like a 'basher' or whatever.

    It is much like suppose I am a vegetarian and I believe the cause of animal rights is very dear. It should be. Factory farming probably creates much more suffering than has gone on in guru worship etc.

    But people don't bring it up socially I mean its kind of an uncomfortable topic. I think I might initiate a discussion in my sangha, but I just have to assimilate this into a greater understanding. A logical as opposed to emotional presentation.




  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I think Tibetan Buddhism has some very powerful teachings. It is unfortunate this convergence of abuse, expectations-authority, casual relations, sex in religious practice. Each one of those interacts with the other three. As I see it the problem I have is abuse. But the other three contribute. I don't really have a problem with authority. Expectations are the problem there. Expecting that your guru is always right and you have to behave without any choice? Thats wrong, but the authority in a different aspects may be constructive actually. Constructive in paying a lot of attention to creative rather than dead written instruction.

    I don't have a problem with casual relations. The problem is that as a fact such attracts abuse. Not only that, but with the authority-expectations that is magnified.

    I think if the guru had to get married to have relations it would be much better.

    Then the whole notion of sex in religion I have no problem whatsoever with that. If there were no such thing as abuse I don't see it as a problem. Aside from the problem of expectations that is. I don't find casual religous sexual encounters a problem.

    So what do I want to preserve? The most important thing (for me) to preserve is the teachings I have received. I find the buddha nature teachings are fundamental to understanding the three marks. Spaciousness is a good way to explain non-self. From an experiential perspective. All of the teachings I have received come from scriptures and a oral tradition.

    I think we get side tracked, derailed, and waste our time making this about xenophobic: why can't everyone be theravadan immature behaviour. It totally takes all the air out of the arguments against abuse. Because I am not going to support a theravadan who is attacking the core dharma I believe in and join forces with them.

    I don't peronaly identify with sex as a practice. Its not really a ritual rather it is a practice. If you call it a ritual then meditation is also a ritual. Anyhow I don't identify with that sex in religion. But lets just entertain that we are trying to keep that second piece on the table. Suppose it is making all sorts of buddhas for all beings? Who knows?

    Otherwise we could just stop tantric sex and a large part of the abuse problem would be devested. Obviously there would still be abuse because tons of gurus are corrupt in the first place but it would be a great step.

    So what can we do if we keep tantric sex? If the gurus remain celibate they cannot teach regarding what they do not experience. So as I see it the only solutions are to either stop tantric sexual practice or else to require that the gurus are married.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Here's what I think should happen.

    Make gurus/organizations responsible in civil court to lawsuits. Like corporations the religious environment should require a sexual harassment free.

    So then the individuals could sue the gurus/organizations. Money talks.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Basicly I think there is a certain interaction between: misunderstanding/expectations with authority (or misinformation), corruption-abuse, casual sex, sex in religion. If you remove some of these pieces quite a bit. For example in the episcopalian church there is no doubt the seeds of corruption. Those on the other hand have a different context of authority. Nobody thinks an episcopal minister has psychic powers etc and is taken so much an authority. Can't really capture this idea, but an episcopal minister is a fellow sinner who preaches gods word for you to reflect on. Not a teacher. Ok episcopal ministers don't have casual sex. Another difference. They are married. And sex is not a commonly understood rite of religion. Individual women/men may feel sex is spiritual, but they are less likely to seek a man/woman of the cloth to have sex with to come close to God. Though that would not be impossible.
    I have this
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Question everyone @Dakini: How would you feel about abuse in the Hollywood industry as compared to Buddhism?
  • I think there is no state so its moot unless I am missing something? Is there a sovereign teritory? Or are you guys talking about actual Tibet? With the chinese and everything?

    If there is a sovereign territory in India I think they should have free elections. Let the people decide what they want.
    Well, right now the Dalai Lama is the secular ruler of Tibet through his government in exile. The Buddhist temples continue to operate openly in Tibet, although under Chinese laws and as a religion only, not as a secular government like they used to. The "Free Tibet" movement doesn't just want the Chinese rule ended, it wants the Dalai Lama reinstated on the throne, or whomever is chosen as temporary King or Regent once the Dalai is gone. There are no plans of changing the form of government that have seriously been considered.

    Most people only focus on the laudable step of self-governing, without stopping to realize what a mess this self-government was and what that means.

    The entire reincarnation thing seems to be just an answer to the quandry, that if a celebate monk is going to rule, then unlike other Kings, how do we keep control of who sits on the throne without a Prince of royal blood line waiting around? So this keeps the temples from launching into wars each time a new Dalai needs to be put on the throne, each having their own head monks to jocky for position. It's actually a remarkably clever way of keeping chaos to a minimum.

    It's really a fascinating twist on an ancient system of dynastic royal governing.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Cinorjer thanks. I had a thought that reincarnation would not be the only option. The catholic religion they select a pope and they have some kind of mechanism to do that. I am not sure how it works.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    There are no plans of changing the form of government that have seriously been considered.
    This is not really the case. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/29/ap/asia/main20067198.shtml
    Cinorjer thanks. I had a thought that reincarnation would not be the only option. The catholic religion they select a pope and they have some kind of mechanism to do that. I am not sure how it works.
    The pope isn't the political leader of a country. I don't see any problem continuing the tulku system for the religious community. The Tibetans do need to seperate the religious institutions and the political ones though and the Dalai Lama is trying to do that though it seems like many of the Tibetan people don't necessarily want that.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I just came across this interesting site. It has links to many articles on the social and political environment of Tibet. Looks like it may be useful to help understand what is Tibetan society and what its influence on Tibetan Buddhism is.

    http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/tibetanSociety/social.htm
  • @person

    the pope is the president of the Vatican, which is a country.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    @person

    the pope is the president of the Vatican, which is a country.
    You got me. :aol:
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited June 2011
    double post. delete please.
  • I think the interview with Miranda Shaw that was posted was helpful. She discussed how desire for power and unresolved issues relating to sexuality for celibate lamas conflate to create problems. Something like that. Wherever that post was in this tangle of threads.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited June 2011
    There are no plans of changing the form of government that have seriously been considered.
    This is not really the case. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/29/ap/asia/main20067198.shtml

    Thanks! I was unaware that there are some people pushing to modernize the Tibetan government, when or if they do get to vote on it.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I think it would be helpful if this was discussed within the Tibetan Buddhist community. Unfortunately the human nature is not to bring such matters to the floor. For example in my sangha I don't see people discussing the 'authority' 'abuse' 'sex in religion' 'casual affairs' concoction at all whatsoever in my sangha.
    Isn't it an online sangha?
    Question everyone @Dakini: How would you feel about abuse in the Hollywood industry as compared to Buddhism?
    Any kind of work-related abuse or harassment is wrong. I just read, in the wake of the case against the former IMF chief, that in France, it's not too unusual for the Hollywood-style "interview" to be required for regular jobs. :shake: grumble:
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Rethinking this, as it stands now the Chinese are rulers of Tibet. I still think it is a hypothetical. I doubt that Tibet will be free in my lifetime.
  • edited June 2011

    at the very least, tulkus should be allowed to resign as monks.
    Tulkus are allowed to resign as monks, once they reach 21 years of age, like other monks. It's rare, but there have been at least 2 cases of tulkus giving up their tulku status altogether.



  • at the very least, tulkus should be allowed to resign as monks.
    Tulkus are allowed to resign as monks, once they reach 21 years of age, like other monks. It's rare, but there have been at least 2 cases of tulkus giving up their tulku status altogether.
    Easier said than done. Where would they go, and what would they do?
  • edited June 2011
    The Spanish tulku who was said to be a reincarnation of Lama Yeshe is going to college in Spain, studying filmmaking, I think. Gedun Chopel left Tibet ("Old Tibet") for India, where he worked on a number of translation projects, and eventually died in jail. Tulkus are highly educated, and can write and publish books (as they do now, in the West), and teach in universities. I know one lama who got university credit for his Buddhist psychology, got an MA in psychotherapy, and has a private practice alongside running his own sangha. Tulkus aren't helpless people, unlike the young monks who give back their robes after having received not even the equivalent of a 6th-grade education in the monasteries.
  • @compassionate_warrior

    why not educate all monks as tulkus?
  • edited June 2011
    lol! That just might be too egalitarian for the Tibetans! They need the majority of the monks to work as servants to the Tulkus and the top 10% of monks who get the best education. The Dalai Lama is working to change this in the Gelug monasteries, by introducing science and geography. Maybe the Karmapa is doing the same in the Kagyu monasteries, I don't know. But they say that not everyone is suited for a rigorous education, like the elite monks get. Remember, boys are given to the monasteries without understanding what is happening, in many cases. They're not chosen for early signs of intellectual ability, they're sent because it's "tradition", or maybe it's prestigious for the family to have a boy in the monastery. In Tibet nowadays, there still are no schools in some rural areas, so the monasteries function as schools. As in old Tibet, in those areas, only the monks get an education. I think the Chinese at least require the monasteries to offer a modern curriculum.
  • @compassionate_warrior

    every willing person should be allowed to study as much as he/she pleases!
  • Yes, well, tell that to the lamas that run the monasteries. And to the Chinese, who have failed to invest sufficiently in schools in Tibet. We can only hope that times are changing for the better.
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    edited June 2011
    @compassionate_warrior

    ...at least with the Net, most sutras are accesible.

    this is the constructive criticism; making tulku's education more freely available is an improvement.
  • edited June 2011
    I agree. Well, first of all, so many children shouldn't be given to the monasteries. In fact, children shouldn't be given to the monasteries at all. There should be a minimum age of 17 or 18 to get in. So in theory, everyone joining will already have a highschool education. That alone would eliminate a lot of problems. Once they're in, everyone should be educated the same if the students are up to the demanding program the tulkus have. Otherwise maybe there could be two tracks, like in public schools.

    In Italy, you know, not everyone gets to finish highschool and go to university. Those who don't do well in school are shunted off to vocational training programs. There's some talk of instituting a system like that here in the US. Sometimes the people who are slated to go to vocational training aren't happy about it.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited June 2011
    As far as I know most tulkus get a fair amount of individual tutoring, I don't know how you could expand that to all monks.

    There are some monks, 10% or so I think is the rough estimate, who show an aptitude and interest in pursuing more rigorous study. They get a very good education in the Dharma and some go on to take the geshe exam, which is like a doctorate degree, others pursue the arts and ritual aspects more. Also, theres no limit put on young monks as to how much they're able to study. Internet access for all monks, great idea, lets get right on that. :skeptic:
  • The curriculum for the "other" 90% used to be (maybe still is in some monasteries?) hours of daily memorization of prayers and texts without any explanation as to what the texts mean (they're in classical Tibetan, incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't made a special study of it), Tibetan calligraphy and reading, and basic math. There was no option to join the top 10% if the lamas didn't think the boys could handle the material and had a serious interest in it.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Trungpa resigned as a monk. He was a tulku.
  • Yes, well, tell that to the lamas that run the monasteries. And to the Chinese, who have failed to invest sufficiently in schools in Tibet. We can only hope that times are changing for the better.
    If China did build schools and send in qualified, trained teachers, they would be accused of destroying the Tibetan way of life and trying to indoctrinate the children. It's a no-win situation for the average Tibetan scratching out a living. Just look at the problems we have still in the US, with conservative parents claiming our secret socialist overlords are doing exactly that.

  • ThaoThao Veteran
    Trungpa resigned as a monk. He was a tulku.
    And? This means? That he can sexually abuse women?



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