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How many times and rate don't really apply in infinity. Mathmatical probability does apply because even though we don't know the pace of someone's rebirth we know the amount of time they've had to be reborn, infinity. Even if someone is reborn as a human only one every million times, one million divided by infinity is still infinity.
:crazy: Then infinity doesn't seem like a very useful concept for teaching on rebirth. Hence, the Buddha's "imponderable" warning label. My mind is officially boggled. I'm outa here. Thanks for trying to explain.
One last try: there's a human (or sentient being) element in all this tidy mathematical probability theory. Humans are unpredictable. They may choose to waste their rebirths by living through their egos. The element of human free will (and human imperfection) works against the tidy mathematics. We're often stubborn, deluded and blind. It's not about rolling a 6. It's about what the human chooses to do with whatever numbers come up.
I still want to see the source that says "infinite" instead of "countless". I think that's the real key to this discussion. Is there a limit or not?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
haha! Thanks, mugzy.
One last try: there's a human (or sentient being) element in all this tidy mathematical probability theory. Humans are unpredictable. They may choose to waste their rebirths by living through their egos. The element of human free will (and human imperfection) works against the tidy mathematics. We're often stubborn, deluded and blind. It's not about rolling a 6. It's about what the human chooses to do with whatever numbers come up.
Good point, you may be right and this is what resolves this issue.
I still want to see the source that says "infinite" instead of "countless". I think that's the real key to this discussion. Is there a limit or not?
They don't say infinite but they do say beginningless. That seems to be the same thing to me, not sure if it actually is though. If you haven't seen this excerpt by Matthieu Ricard I'll post it again.
Space can either be infinite or endless, and so is time. If space can be so, can physical mass be as well? Are we standing on infinite and endless physical mass transmigration as a being with this form and body, or are we the result of this physical mass being endless. Perhaps its all just an endless mass of unsatisfactoriness.
I checked too and it does say "beginningless". Oh well. I won't stop doing what I'm doing with Buddhism because of it though. Even if I've had all eternity to do it, I must have screwed up sometime...
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I checked too and it does say "beginningless". Oh well. I won't stop doing what I'm doing with Buddhism because of it though. Even if I've had all eternity to do it, I must have screwed up sometime...
Lol, yeah in the end we aren't enlightened and this is just philosophical speculation. So I guess we just have to get about to doing it.
Non-sequitur. Many Buddhists believe this but I have never read it in the scriptures. The scriptures simply state a beginning of spinning (samsara) in ignorance & craving cannot be discerned or found. It does not assert a beginningless beginning. It just states a beginning cannot be found.
I mean, of course, human rebirth is rare, and human rebirth in which it is possible to practice Dharma is super-rare...
Non-sequitur. The world has billions of human beings. One does not need to be an Einstein to realise human birth is not rare. There are millions & billions of beings with human bodies have minds that dwell in the animal, hell & hungry ghost sphere.
What is rare is "humane" birth rather than "human" birth. The Pali for human is manusaya, which has its root in the meaning of "manas" or "mind". Human birth means to be born with a "lofty mind".
This is rare but to be born with a human body is not rare.
During infinity, surely there were some rebirths in which we tried to achieve liberation (and since we are dealing with infinity, "some" means "infinite number").
Non-sequitur. Liberation is to be liberated in mind (rather than the Hindu notion of being liberated from the body). It is to be liberated from greed, hatred & delusion. In his 3rd Noble Truth, the Buddha said the goal is "liberation from craving".
As you have given little impression you are attempting to achieve liberation in this life, what makes you think you would try to acheive liberation in an imagined future life?
Liberation from what? If one does not realise they are in a prison, why would they seek liberation?
I am pretty sure the notion of a beginningless mind is quite crucial in Buddhist philosophy.
Non-sequitur. It is not crucial at all. The Buddha never taught about "beginningless mind". He taught all mind, whether gross or subtle, is impermanent. It arise for a moment and ceases after a moment. The Buddha said the physical body has more permanence than the mind. The Buddha said realising a "handful of leaves", namely, The Four Noble Truths is crucial.
If I had to "non-sequitur" each of your posts, that would probably take me a lifetime.
The Buddha described the animal world in the quote below. One does not need to be an Einstein to realise "humane" birth is rare but animal birth is not rare
Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two?
Shame and fear of wrongdoing.
If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals.
But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons.
IMO, time and space are illusionary concepts of the self. There is no space and time so the original question cannot be explained by our ordinary logical thinking. You will have the answers once you are awakened. The past and the future is already here. Hard to understand logically, thats why one needs to be awakened to grasp it. All possibilities are already here and now. Its just your ego travelling thru the ocean of possibilities.
I drink to that @zen_world (am I violating a precept here ?)... The mind, or brain the mothers of logic, are not efficient enough to answer all questions in the Universe. Sometimes it needs the abstract intuitive mind for the insight to occur that 'a ha!!!' thing. But unfortunately there are not so many in this forum believing in an inate intuitive mind or are they...? (For me you don't have to achieve enlightenment though @zen_world to have an intuitive insight for a problem to be solved, quantum leaps are not so rear...)
There is no space and time so the original question cannot be explained by our ordinary logical thinking. You will have the answers once you are awakened. The past and the future is already here. Hard to understand logically, thats why one needs to be awakened to grasp it.
I drink to that @zen_world (am I violating a precept here ?)... Sometimes it needs the abstract intuitive mind for the insight to occur that 'a ha!!!' thing. But unfortunately there are not so many in this forum believing in an inate intuitive mind or are they...?
The original question is as follows:
My question is: if somebody has existed for eternity, and thus had been reborn in all possible lives already, why haven't he already achieved liberation in one of those lifetimes?
No amount of awakening or 'a ha!!!' moments will ever answer the original question because the original question itself is non-sequitur. One does not need to be awakened to grasp it because, in actuality, there is nothing to grasp. To think "awakening" will answer such a question is not awakening.
Take care not to get drunk on esoteric philosophy. Esoteric philosophy for the unawakened is also superstition. To believe there is no space and no time can also be as superstitious as believing in the Tooth Fairy.
Awakening does answer the question because the answer to the question is to put the question aside. The answer is that it's unanswerable and if it's unanswerable then there is no longer any point in asking it.
This is what I've been saying from the start, but sometimes it only becomes clear after wrestling with it and realizing from experience it's unanswerable and pointless.
This is what I've been saying from the start, but sometimes it only becomes clear after wrestling with it and realizing from experience it's unanswerable and pointless.
I was also saying it was unanswerable.
The ego tells us that our logic is infallible. So once it is convinced, it's hard to let go of an 'answer'. So sometimes it's hard to say that something is unanswerable. The question is unimportant to our practice and intellectually oppressive.
The ego tells us that our logic is infallible. So once it is convinced, it's hard to let go of an 'answer'. So sometimes it's hard to say that something is unanswerable. The question is unimportant to our practice and intellectually oppressive.
Right. The catch is that humans are inherently illogical. Pure mathematics and fallible humans don't mix.
@DhammaDhatu, you spoiler. You're messing up with my drinking party. Well as I said in another thread, I'm irrational when it comes to METAPHYSICS, not physics. By the way I love fairy tails and superstision is another word for Ignorance. For me though Spiritual Ignorance can only be approached via the abnormality of irrational, non-logickal ways like meditating. The brain for me and I'm talking only for myself, is not everything in the Universe...
Zen master Dogen pondered the question of why, if we are originally enlightened, is it then necessary to practice. The answer, provided by Tsung-mi, prior to Dogen, is because “from the beginningless beginning the delusions of human beings has obscured it so that they have not been aware of it"
I am not yet a rightly self-awakened, fully enlightened being. There no such thing as a causeless cause created ex nihilo. Since I am not yet enlightened, I must dedicate myself now toward enlightenment and liberation. The past and the future are both illusions.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Sorry for the necro post :zombie: but I came across an essay by Alexander Berzin where he directly takes on this exact question. If the OP ever came back I wanted him to be able to find it.
Comments
My mind is officially boggled. I'm outa here. Thanks for trying to explain.
One last try: there's a human (or sentient being) element in all this tidy mathematical probability theory. Humans are unpredictable. They may choose to waste their rebirths by living through their egos. The element of human free will (and human imperfection) works against the tidy mathematics. We're often stubborn, deluded and blind. It's not about rolling a 6. It's about what the human chooses to do with whatever numbers come up.
https://bdigital.ufp.pt/dspace/bitstream/10284/782/3/241-246Cons-Ciencias 02-9.pdf
What is rare is "humane" birth rather than "human" birth. The Pali for human is manusaya, which has its root in the meaning of "manas" or "mind". Human birth means to be born with a "lofty mind".
This is rare but to be born with a human body is not rare. Non-sequitur. Liberation is to be liberated in mind (rather than the Hindu notion of being liberated from the body). It is to be liberated from greed, hatred & delusion. In his 3rd Noble Truth, the Buddha said the goal is "liberation from craving".
As you have given little impression you are attempting to achieve liberation in this life, what makes you think you would try to acheive liberation in an imagined future life?
Liberation from what? If one does not realise they are in a prison, why would they seek liberation? Non-sequitur. It is not crucial at all. The Buddha never taught about "beginningless mind". He taught all mind, whether gross or subtle, is impermanent. It arise for a moment and ceases after a moment. The Buddha said the physical body has more permanence than the mind. The Buddha said realising a "handful of leaves", namely, The Four Noble Truths is crucial.
If I had to "non-sequitur" each of your posts, that would probably take me a lifetime.
Best wishes
Take care not to get drunk on esoteric philosophy. Esoteric philosophy for the unawakened is also superstition. To believe there is no space and no time can also be as superstitious as believing in the Tooth Fairy.
All the best
The ego tells us that our logic is infallible. So once it is convinced, it's hard to let go of an 'answer'. So sometimes it's hard to say that something is unanswerable. The question is unimportant to our practice and intellectually oppressive.
Cheers...
Not sure if it can answer your question but the site kind of talks about the same topic, might be worth a look. http://theendlessfurther.com/?tag=original-enlightenment
I am not yet a rightly self-awakened, fully enlightened being.
There no such thing as a causeless cause created ex nihilo.
Since I am not yet enlightened, I must dedicate myself now toward enlightenment and liberation.
The past and the future are both illusions.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level4_deepening_understanding_path/rebirth_karma/rebirth_bgnnngless_why_not_enlight.html
I did wonder....!!