Do you think the less spiritual you are, The better off you will be??

buddhacoe

I believe this is what its all about. Its definitely what Zen is all about. Coming back to No mind.
'No mind is Buddha mind'

I find people who are not on the spiritual path dont suffer as much as one who is starting on the spiritual path.
What I mean is: The moment we become spiritual, we start demanding answers. We want to know more about life and how it works and why things happen. And therefore we start suffering because deep down we wont ever know all the answers.
But one who doesnt *want* to know the answers doesnt care, therfore doesnt suffer. Even mentally, they just seem to get *on with it* They get on with life. Where as one who is on the path starts asking himself questions like why why why etc etc etc.....

But its all about coming back to *not knowing* Like kids. Kids dont worry about future, they dont make plans, they just live in the now and get on with it. If there hungry they'll ask for some food. If their sleepy, they'll go and lie down. Whatever they are doing, they just BE...But the older we get we start panicking, rushing around, making plans, doing this, doing that...Hating this hating that, craving this craving that..and we dwell on petty things way to long...

So this whole practice is just to come ALL THE WAY BACK, to what we were in the very first place.
I believe we are born enlightened. Then we somehow forget we are, Then start searching to find it again forgetting that we already are enlightened...


My point is, it is actually the spiritual path that can either make or break you. I believe it can be an amazing journey or it can be the worst thing you can ever get into...
Only until you start realizing little truths you could suffer very much. Like I said can either make or break a person. Because if one is on the spiritual path in search for *something* and lets say they never get it, they could have wasted many years searching and craving something that never came!! But one who isnt on the spiritual path doesnt go that *deep* into things. They just take things as they are,accept it and get on with it which *is* enlightenment itself. 'Accepting your life'

The minute we step into the spiritual mind, we dont accept our life as it is. Theres something we want to change..

Like I said in my previous post about 'finally understanding Zen, I do feel I am understanding things more clearly in my life. And Buddhism and Zen have help me out alot. I know some people wont agree with what im saying here, which is fine because we all have to find our own truth. But I do feel ive almost got it (for me anyway).. ''I believe We step on the spiritual path just to step out of it again''
'For me enlightenment is going back to knowing nothing..Theres nothing to attain, nothing to seek'

'When one is not seeking anything, one is enlightened'
'If one is seeking enlightenment, he shall never become enlightened''
'The less you know - the more you know'
'The more you know - the more you suffer'
'the more you know, the more you want to know ...and know and know...''

Anyway, theres loads of quotes that are always entering my head and i could go on forever but i wont bore no longer I just wanted to share my thoughts with you all.
Thanks for reading. Sorry its long, and i hope i made little sense at least. LOL

Best wishes.

Paradox

The person who is not on the 'spiritual' path is living in ignorance. And yes, ignorance is bliss, but it is not enlightened bliss.

Jeffrey

If you aren't experiencing any dukkha there is no reason to start the spiritual path. The path is perilous because we turn gods to demons.

I've seen some pretty unhappy kids.. but I see your point.. going to the zoo doesn't cure my existential angst. At the same time kids have difficulties amidst never never land. Parents break up, toys get broken, brothers and sisters fight. They get molested and are powerless. They are bored and they bully. They treat the teacher poorly. Mom rebukes them. They love a girl who loves another boy. They burst into tears because teacher has them after school. A kid hits his head on the slide and has to go to the doctor. They fear and are haunted by dreams of the blood on the slide.

They grow old. They die. Their parent gets sick. They can't do all the fun things of getting older and more grown up.

Jeffrey

"The Warrior's accomplishment of outrageousness is like a good, self existing sword-- desire to sharpen it will make it dull. When, out of hope and fear, you apply a competitive or comparative logic to your experience, trying to measure how much you have fathomed, how much is left to fathom, or how much someone else has fathomed, you are just dulling your sword, the sharmpness of your mind. Instead, have confidence in your awareness and relax in your ability to connect with a larger vision, the experience of vast mind."

Trungpa Rinpoche.

taiyaki

we come to spirituality because we seek truth. we leave spirituality when we find truth.

coming full circle we are no different than before. we just lack ignorance, anger, and fear.

thus we see clearly into the nature of the mind. as you said, no mind is buddha mind.

zenff

@buddhacoe
“The minute we step into the spiritual mind, we don’t accept our life as it is. There's something we want to change..”

I think Trungpa called this “Spiritual Materialism”. And I believe it happens a lot.
When we understand material possessions will not ultimately make us happy we move our craving mind and direct it towards attaining “spiritual possessions” instead.

We will be as neurotic as before.

We may find a sense of superiority in being more spiritual than ordinary people. Or we may feel like poor people; like being the have-nots of the spiritual community.

We have to see through this when we want to be truly free and awake.

aMatt

Dropping our identity is important, so being a "spiritual" person is just another one to abandon when we're ready. Looking for answers isn't bad, just try to ask important questions. Questions drove Buddha.

jll

Ignorance is bliss while you are experiencing bliss.
Ignorance is _____ while you are experiencing sorrow.

buddhacoe

The person who is not on the 'spiritual' path is living in ignorance. And yes, ignorance is bliss, but it is not enlightened bliss.

Do not agree in the slightest. I know many people who are not on the spirtual path and trust me, They are not living in ignorance. X

buddhacoe

The way to enlightenment is to banish the spiritual path.

''One steps onto the spiritual path only to eventually step back of it..''
Quote by a Zen Master.

Yishai

If you step on the spiritual path, you are probably looking for something (truth). You step off when you find the truth. Some people are happy without a spiritual path. Maybe they are ignorant or maybe they have had similar realizations on their own. These people you know: do they ever suffer?

genkaku

The way to enlightenment is to banish the spiritual path.

''One steps onto the spiritual path only to eventually step back of it..''
Quote by a Zen Master.

@buddhacoe -- You are insisting too much that blue sky is blue. Do you imagine you can "help" someone? Think again. When we go into a restaurant, you choose eggs and I choose spaghetti. Both of us are nourished. Blue sky is blue.

Everyone chooses his or her own route, his or her own beliefs, his or her own lies. Assuming there is some determination and some constancy, blue sky is automatically blue. Neither assent nor dissent is required.

Kiss the dog, wash the dishes, have a nice day.

thickpaper

I guess it depends what "spiritual" means.

To me it means the highest of states one can be at with their existence.
In the same way that love is the highest state one can be at with another.

zenmyste

.

zenmyste

.

acheshirecat

i agree with paradox,ignorance in neer the way

Malachy12

I think I can get what you're saying. You start innocent... "hey where does this spiritual path go, doo dee doo", You get a little cocky and start to imagine that you're some kind of spiritual Lewis and Clark, then BAM* That smarmy chestire cat comes outta nowhere and tells you to go some other way. You start to think he might be cracked when you start seeing caterpillars smoking pot and daisy's talking to you. Then whenever you ask for directions everyone argues with each other and you feel pulled in multiple directions. So you just decide to keep walking further and further and try as you might to let go of attachment you just start making new ones. But hopefully after many adventures you eat the cookie and come out the other end exactly where you began. Innocent again and more appreciative of it.

I do believe that a person who is not spiritual can be satisfied, as can someone who is spiritual. However if the non spiritual person slips into a nihilist and despondent state of mind then life will suck, and conversely if a spiritual person becomes zealous and dogmatic then life will suck too. I grew up a lot when I learned that even Buddhists can become zealous and dogmatic. I had always hypothesized that possibility but to actually witness it, well it turned me off of Buddhism for a bit and I didn't even want to identify with Buddhism. Then I realized I was being silly in more ways than one. Whenever someone exclaimed "My truth is the truthiest!" I stopped being insulted and started to see them as just addicts. People who are addicted to being right and want all the answers, much too curious for their own good, lol.

Jeffrey

Maybe read spiritual materialism by chogyam trungpa rinpoche. Deals with this topic.

Julia

A lot of people suffers. Just look at people faces. Maybe they don´t suffer because they seeking answers but they suffer because of their thoughts and stories. The thoughts create a lot of suffering like anger, greed, pride, envy, depression and so on.
If you are "ignorant" because of your zen practice, it is another "ignorance". Because we all have to cross the bushes before we come to that opened field of freedom and normal ignorant people are very far from that.
A child is not free of suffering, even a very small child suffer becuase of anger, jealousy, envy, greed as we do. Maybe they don´t think as much as we but they are still stuck in samsara.

Vincenzi

"the less spiritual you are, the better off you think you are... until something bad happens"

Gui

The idea of spiritual realm has fascinated me for a long time. I understand what is being discussed here and apologize if I am going "off the track" so to speak. But isn't the spiritual realm part of the natural realm that is unperceivable? Or, do we make it ourselves in our minds? Because it is unperceivable through our sences doesn't make it unknowable. Ummm - well, once again I ask myself what the heck am I trying to say. It just seems to be all the same. Where is the boundry if there is one?
I am new to this discussion forum thingy and it is very good to meet all of you.

Vincenzi

@Gui

it is basically what is not reducible to the material world, and is deeply connected with mind.

there's a welcome thread for new members

taiyaki

everyone is trying to be enlightened so they can escape life.
the enlightened being is just being ordinary.

the notion of spirituality is a raft as it creates a false dichotomy. life is spiritual, but it is also very ordinary.
finding the spiritual in the ordinary is to goal. also integrating your sitting with real life is the goal.

eventually we should come to a point where everything is spiritual and ordinary. i eat a piece of bread and it becomes a part of my body. i also get energy from it. if that isn't a miracle then i don't know what is.

=]

KarmaDondrupTashi

Helping someone is even more of a miracle.

taiyaki

yes, isn't that the goal and purpose of buddhism. to help others and even yourself?
what use is all this wisdom if we don't have compassionate action.

santhisouk

In my opinion someone who has not been spiritual, has not created merit, and has not developed any belief or faith of any kind, when they are lying in bed and about to die, at the those final moments, they must be going through a horrible experience not knowing what will become of them after death.

buddhacoe

when they are lying in bed and about to die, at the those final moments, they must be going through a horrible experience not knowing what will become of them after death.

nope, dont agree at all. Ive witnessed many who have not been on the spiritual path and as they were about to die, they have just smiled and waited to part from the world. Why would they go through a horrible experience just coz their not on the spiritual path.To live a life never being spiritual is one the best things one can hope for.

Spaceless

According to Diamond Sutra on non-dharma & dharma :
You should not cling to dharmas; you should not cling to non-dharmas. Because of this principle the Thus Come One always says, 'Bhikshus, you should all know that the Dharma I speak is like a raft. You must let go of dharmas. Even more so let go of non-dharmas.'"
My teaching of the dharma, the good law, is like a raft that has carried one safely across a flood. One does not continue the journey carrying the raft upon his head. Thus even the buddha-teaching must be relinquished. Amitabha! :thumbsup:

zen_world

My teaching of the dharma, the good law, is like a raft that has carried one safely across a flood. One does not continue the journey carrying the raft upon his head. Thus even the buddha-teaching must be relinquished. Amitabha! :thumbsup:

I love this quote:)

:bowdown:

Amelia

I find people who are not on the spiritual path dont suffer as much as one who is starting on the spiritual path.

Maybe they are on the spiritual path because they suffer-- not suffer because they are on a spiritual path.

What I mean is: The moment we become spiritual, we start demanding answers.

If I recall, I became spiritual when I got answers. Of course, we end up asking more questions, as a result, but I think this is a good thing.

And therefore we start suffering because deep down we wont ever know all the answers.

I think there are many spiritual people out there who have let go of the need to "know it all." Most mature people realize, spiritual or not, that they can never know everything.

But one who doesnt *want* to know the answers doesnt care, therfore doesnt suffer.

But these people are so boring!

Even mentally, they just seem to get *on with it* They get on with life.

That's about all they do... "get on with life"... the way a T.V. usually tells them to.

But its all about coming back to *not knowing* Like kids.

Like kids who burn their hands on the stove every time they touch it, because they are so in the now that they never remember the warnings of their parents.

I know many people who are not on the spirtual path and trust me, They are not living in ignorance. X

And I know many people who aren't on the spiritual path, and they are complete idiots. They aren't idiots because they aren't spiritual-- they are idiots because they don't question a damn thing that is said to them.

I do believe that a person who is not spiritual can be satisfied, as can someone who is spiritual. However if the non spiritual person slips into a nihilist and despondent state of mind then life will suck, and conversely if a spiritual person becomes zealous and dogmatic then life will suck too.

Maybe they don´t suffer because they seeking answers but they suffer because of their thoughts and stories.

In my opinion someone who has not been spiritual, has not created merit, and has not developed any belief or faith of any kind, when they are lying in bed and about to die, at the those final moments, they must be going through a horrible experience not knowing what will become of them after death.

Even though I am spiritual, doesn't mean that I or anyone knows what happens after death.

According to Diamond Sutra on non-dharma & dharma :
You should not cling to dharmas; you should not cling to non-dharmas.

santhisouk

Even though I am spiritual, doesn't mean that I or anyone knows what happens after death.

There is a painful not knowing, and there is an unpainful not knowing.

Jeffrey

It seems like misunderstandings of buddhism are being compared to a generic 'non-spiritual'.. I don't think you can compare two generalities quite effectively. At the least the buddhist teachings are attempting to live a happier life.

Essentially buddhacoe is saying that these teachings make one less happy! Buddhacoe, can you show us which teaching of the buddhists teachings makes a person less happy? Thanks.

If you are filled with ill will, greed, and ignorance you should be seeking

thewayshemoves

I think it could depend on your perception of a spiritual path. For some they begin a spiritual path because they need to feel as though they belong to something, relying on external stimuli from others for happiness. Others just join a path hoping for the path to do the work for them. Like jumping on a raft meant to ford a river, and instead expecting it to know how to traverse an ocean safely while you enjoy the view of dolphins and the sea breeze as it goes. For others they're comparing spiritual with what they feel is truth. This is why there won't be an agreement on whether or not being less spiritual is better or worse. Everyone can only bring their own perceptions to the table.