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Is mind the same as self?

GuiGui Veteran
edited July 2011 in Buddhism Basics
What say ye?

Comments

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited July 2011
    The self and the mind are the same? If so can the self be kicked? If the self is kicked then is the mind kicked?
    Where is this "self" other than your thinking?
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    it really depends on how clear you see what is.
    self/other exist relationally, thus they are constantly changing.
  • ParadoxParadox
    I don't think they're the same thing, but the mind is pretty determined to bluff us into thinking they are one and the same.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    i think it's important to note that by mind buddhists mean consciousness + heaps of mental impressions.
    isn't the goal a moment of no mind so we can free ourselves from the objects in the field of consciousness?

    yet we hold onto an idea that we project onto ourselves and onto others. how can something be an idea?

    good thing all things crash down. =]
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    What do you mean by mind and what do you mean by self? If a spider crawls on me my brain/sense consciousness perceives it. I have an immediate reaction of fear and desire to kill the spider. Then I problem solve, ok I could brush it off.

    But then I don't do anything I just let the spider go where it wants.

    I think the true mind lets go (and from that standpoint can act more skillfully). The self is a web of thinking which doesn't really exist. A hard knot that is unpleasant, reminds me a little bit of when you take a tums and your tongue stops being coated by saliva properly and feels weird. A self is a little discomfort and fear, but not really much of anything.
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    The mind creates our sense of self.

    Which is ok, even needed for survival purposes.

    The danger is attaching to the idea of a permanent self.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    lol even if you do attach to a "permanent" self.

    good luck!
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited July 2011
    i think it's important to note that by mind buddhists mean consciousness + heaps of mental impressions.
    i think it's important to note that what you said is not correct

    Buddhists do not mean what you have inferred

    below is a teaching we used to read to beginners on the first morning of meditation retreats

    :orange:
    What is the mind? The mind isn't really any ''thing''. Conventionally speaking, it's that which feels or senses. That which senses, receives and experiences all mental impressions is called ''mind''. Right at this moment there is mind. As I am speaking to you, the mind acknowledges what I am saying. Sounds enter through the ear and you know what is being said. That which experiences this is called ''mind''.

    This mind doesn't have any self or substance. It doesn't have any form. It just experiences mental activities, that's all! If we teach this mind to have right view, this mind won't have any problems. It will be at ease.

    The mind is mind. Mental objects are mental objects. Mental objects are not the mind, the mind is not mental objects. In order to clearly understand our minds and the mental objects in our minds, we say that the mind is that which receives the mental objects which pop into it.

    http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Gift_Dhamma1.php
    isn't the goal a moment of no mind so we can free ourselves from the objects in the field of consciousness?
    No. The goal is to see mind as mind; to free the mind from the delusion the mind is "self", "I am" the mind, etc.

    :wow:
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    regardless of what you see it as, it is still dependent and not self existing.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    existence arises in the space of mind.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited July 2011
    regardless of what you see it as, it is still dependent and not self existing.
    ...too much reading books...too much superstition about esoteric concepts... :crazy:
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited July 2011
    existence arises in the space of mind.
    'existence' does arise in the space of mind but existence is not mind

    'existence' arises from/is certain kinds of deluded thought formations

    the mind is just mind...in itself, it is not problematic :)

    Ajahn Chah continues:
    If we teach this mind to have right view, this mind won't have any problems. It will be at ease.

    Meditation is the way of developing the mind so that it may be a base for the arising of wisdom.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    existence arises in the space of mind.
    existence does arise in the space of mind but existence is not mind
    )
    If existence is not mind then is mind non-existence? or is there another alternative?
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    possibly, i misconstrued Jeffrey's post

    i was distinguishing the sense 'I exist' from the mere existence of mind

    :)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2011
    how do we decide whether something exists or not? Generally if a collective all agrees that something exists then it exists. But for an individual their experience is just their experience. Reasoning that something exists and something doesn't exist kind of makes sense. I mean if I have a fantasy about someone if I realize that it is a fantasy that can be quite useful. But what exactly happens in distinguishing that fact. We come to a clarity.

    The clarity is real. It is the aspect of the mind that is relied upon in this example. The fantasies are distinguished by the clarity, a faculty of mind. Otherwise we would not have any standard for what is fantasy or existent without the clarity of mind. Otherwise we would have to have a vast dictionary to refer to to establish what was existent and what was non-existent.
  • santhisouksanthisouk Veteran
    The self is very limited, and is based on the label we've come to know ourselves as. But the mind has yet to be labeled, and has unlimited capacity and capabilities.
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    edited July 2011
    I don't think the mind is unlimited in capability.

    It has physical limits, for example the number of neurons in our brain.

    Edit added: and most of those neurons are dedicated to pattern recognition and related tasks, which by the way is why we tend to perceive the persistence of objects - including our selves - even when we may intellectually accept the idea of impermanence.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    What say ye?
    Ye say no. :)

  • GuiGui Veteran
    You cats are awesome. Peace and love to all this beautiful morning.
  • deceivinglifedeceivinglife
    Mind can be your worst enemy or your best friend. Self is just an illusion.
  • NOTaGangstaNOTaGangsta
    I find discussion os Metaphysics abit icky right now, considering the danger of falling into the 62 partial views and mistaking it for the whole truth!

    http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=62_kinds_of_wrong_view
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited July 2011
    Mind is simply mind; experience. It is not separate from form, and the nature of form is to change (relentlessly despite our wishes). There is no ground. Other than a temporarily defined "thing" formed out of the wind of time, what self is there to speak of? What is has no own-essence, only the essence-less essence of change.
  • goshikigoshiki
    In current world , we aged by years , measured by our knowledge but in search of Buddha .......we aged by our awareness so even if a 50 years old doctor in Buddha he could be lower awareness than a animal or a 4 years old boy .
    Awareness is imposible to be measured .
    Awareness is all our emotions , compassion , feelings of good or bad that aged us in search of Buddha . In Buddha our awareness is actually pollutant.
    We must know our awareness in order to be eliminate it and be free of it .
    Only if we could be free of all emotions ...we will be in pure energy of emptiness ..the Buddha .
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    We have this mind.
    We have this body.
    Everything that comes into our field of perception are simply phenomena (however we label it including the mental formation we call the self)that arise, stay for a time and dissapate.
    When we cling to this phenomena, we grasp at the five aggregates. In doing so we are in a state of becoming (anything we attach or see meaning to or see as self or other). From this becoming another "self" is born.
    What conditions suffering? Birth. Not only physical birth, but the birth that comes through the five aggregates. Any self that is born will undergo change and suffering will be experienced as a result.
    The mind is the mind.
    Phenomena are phenomena.
    Clinging to phenomena (ideas of self, I Me mine included)will result in continuos rebirth in this life and the suffering that birth entails.
    We see continuosly arising and passing phenomena and mistakenly identify with it as self.
    There is no self only impermenance.



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