[BK] Ajahn Sucitto's view of goals

pearl

In several passages, the author warns us of the dangers surrounding goals:

p. 22 ... These two extremes of trying to get or get rid of represent the tracks that seekers might take if they are following the advice of a teacher who instructs in terms of a goal rather than a way. ... The very notion of a goal beyond conventional reality can encourage people to discard, sometimes with great rigor, all conventional restraints.

p. 30 ... we need an integrated approach and wise guidance to ward off the obsessiveness that can accumulate when we aim for a goal, rather than for developing skillful means. But to abandon self-conscious drives and ambitions ... requires skill.

Do you agree with Sucitto that striving for goals can represent a trap? Do you find his distinction between goals and "a way" persuasive?

Jeffrey

I think it depends how you react to having a goal. If you fixate on the goal too strongly it leads to rigidity now. Which could manifest as stress because you are not ok where you are today. The goal could be just more 'thinking' to get attached to.

A goal is quite conceptual whereas a way is something you actually do. For example if I paint I have a goal of 'good painting'.. that is an idea. But my actual technique is an experience as I feel the brush strokes and adjust to the reality of each stroke. It is possible to become discouraged due to judgementalism which could lead to abandonment of the path.

Do you find this to be true in practice?

pearl

I think it depends how you react to having a goal. If you fixate on the goal too strongly it leads to rigidity now. Which could manifest as stress because you are not ok where you are today. The goal could be just more 'thinking' to get attached to.

A goal is quite conceptual whereas a way is something you actually do. For example if I paint I have a goal of 'good painting'.. that is an idea. But my actual technique is an experience as I feel the brush strokes and adjust to the reality of each stroke. It is possible to become discouraged due to judgementalism which could lead to abandonment of the path.

That's an excellent explanation. Thank you Jeffrey!

Ric

Great question pearl.

The way I see a way and a goal are connected and cant be separated. The way is a means to achieve a goal. Now, not all goals are created equally. If your goal is to reach a certain weight to look good, much like Jeffery said, it implies that you will never think you look good unless you are that weight therefore it is a self-defeating goal.

Although I agree with the author that the way is more important than the goal, the goal is more of a direction and the way is the actual path.

Dakini

I think this is a great question. I've never really been a goal-oriented person; I tend more to be open to serendipity, and follow my interests wherever they may take me, rarely a clear goal in mind. But on the few occasions I've had a goal, I haven't obsessed about it, like the author says. I think this is another example of Buddhist teachers or authors framing things in extremes. Some people do obsess about goals: the high-powered businessmen, some professionals, depending on the person, like doctors, laywers, investors maybe. But the average Joes and Janes don't obsess over goals, do they?

I don't agree with this idea that setting a weight-loss goal is self-defeating. You reach your goal, and you're done, what's self-defeating about it?

genkaku

Everyone has goals, has hopes, has beliefs. The fortunate thing about Zen practice -- my preferred poison -- is that you can have all the goals and hopes and beliefs you like ... the practice will set you straight.

Jeffrey

Dakini, I think many buddhists obsess about their spirituality bringing them happiness. The difference is that there is no stereotype as an athlete or businessmen, but the emotional fallout is the same. If you meditate to relieve stress even if its a spectrum of responses, it is still something that many westerners (and probably others) encounter. I experienced a breakthrough when the gaining mind to have peace I gave up on. Why did I give up? Because I saw that it was suffering and then I turned towards that suffering mindfully.

BuckyG

I wonder if AS is mincing words. Developing skillful means is a goal too. I think he's alluding to clinging to precepts and practices as a source of dukkha (suffering/stress).

I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu handles the same idea better:

"The power of this aspiration depends on two emotions, called in Pali samvega and pasada. Very few of us have heard of them, but they're the emotions most basic to the Buddhist tradition. Not only did they inspire the young prince in his quest for Awakening, but even after he became the Buddha he advised his followers to cultivate them on a daily basis. In fact, the way he handled these emotions is so distinctive that it may be one of the most important contributions his teachings have to offer to American culture today."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/affirming.html

Jeffrey

I think its important that you define samvega and pasada. Otherwise we have no idea what this means. I suppose I could google it but it would be much easier if that was already packaged for me.

BuckyG

@Jeffrey

that's what the link's 4

Jeffrey

So you want me to read links to discuss a topic? Just speaking for myself I would prefer not to and have you discuss your terms yourself.

upekka

samvega = not happy

pasada = happy

Dakini

It's a very interesting link. Samvega is defined as the shock, the disturbing feeling the Buddha felt upon discovering that life for most people is a relatively meaningless struggle that ends in illness and death. It is this "samvega" that motivated him to go forth and find a better way. Rather than shrinking from unpleasant emotions, he used them as a motivator, and taught his monks to do the same. That's what is meant by: he urged his monks to "cultivate" these feelings daily. I read it as he said not to shrink from samvega, but to embrace it as the motivator to develop the right practice and aim for enlightenment, aim for pasada.

Jeffrey

Thanks that makes sense. I think I have experienced samvega and it is a challenge to use it as a motivation rather than feel negative about yourself and unmotivated, the contrary.