4 noble truths - Beginning or Advanced

Talisman

When introducing people to "what Buddhism is," would you explain to them the 4 noble truths, as a "beginner" course, or would you consider the 4 noble truths to be a more advanced instruction?

Vincenzi

it can be approachable for a beginner, depending on how you explain it.

at the start you can say just the first noble truth...

Yishai

I think it helps in showing in how Buddhism sees life, if something can be done to help us, and what it is exactly that can be done.

It's a pretty good sales pitch and it's used all the time. "There is a problem. This is what causes it. The problem CAN be solved. Here's HOW! Buy now for 3 easy payments of 34.99! Along with your purchase of the Dhamma, we'll give you peace of mind or your money back guaranteed!"

genkaku

The Four Noble Truths are observations about the world in which we live. The Eightfold Path are suggestions about how to act if you happen to agree with those truths. Since we are all alive, there is no real question of 'beginner' or 'advanced.' People, since they are alive, are free to agree, disagree or ask questions.

Vincenzi

@Yishai

my ally said that my explanation of the four stages (and if you broke this fetters, you will attain nirvana in less than n lifetimes!) it sounded as an advertising

thickpaper

When introducing people to "what Buddhism is," would you explain to them the 4 noble truths, as a "beginner" course, or would you consider the 4 noble truths to be a more advanced instruction?

IMO, It's all there is to Dharma. The rest is Buddhism. They are simple, deep, clear and relatively easy to understand but very hard to realise in ones life.

Jeffrey

Buddhas first discourse was given to ascetics who had basicly practiced spirituality for the past 5 or 10+ years singlemindedly.

Do your best study hard to be a buddha so you can help sentient beings, then you will know the answer

aMatt

I find many get hung up on the first noble truth, because they reject the notion that life is unsatisfying. It has been better received to talk about our patterns of habitual dissatisfaction, because people seem to be better able to relate that to their observations of their own journey. Then the next 3 are very relate-able, because "well, what really causes that, can we make it go away, what makes it go away?" is context rich in their mind.

How deep that habit goes and how pervasive the arising dukkha, save for a later teaching when someone is ready to renounce.

zen_world

I am surrounded with atheists. So I can't even get to 4 noble truths. Because they don't believe in life after death, they have no interest in spending time to think about a spiritual path.
So my discussion with them is mostly about mind and body and science. Most of the time I find myself trying to break their nihilist approach.

DhammaDhatu

there is no such thing as a "beginner". what is appropriate for an individual depends on their goals

for example, there are those who have studied Buddhism for years & have still not realised the 4NTs, with their minds spinning in "craving-to-be", concocting theories about rebirth

Jeffrey

combo breaker

GuyC

for example, there are those who have studied Buddhism for years & have still not realised the 4NTs, with their minds spinning in "craving-to-be", concocting theories about rebirth

...not to mention those with "craving-not-to-be", concocting theories about nihilism

DhammaDhatu

...not to mention those with "craving-not-to-be", concocting theories about nihilism

non-sequitur...irrelevent comment from non-comprehension... :-/

realising 4NTs = freedom from craving = freedom from craving = no 'self' views

Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him and arisen fermentations increase.

This is how he attends inappropriately:

'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

Vincenzi

recollection of past lives is a phala...

GuyC

Hi DD,

Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him and arisen fermentations increase.

This is how he attends inappropriately:

'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

I believe that you are correct that the Buddha is talking about speculating about past lives as an obstacle. However, there is a difference between speculation and recollection.

Metta,

Guy

KarmaDondrupTashi

What to teach someone depends on the capacity of the student. Since I'm not a teacher I have no idea how to determine that.

Dazzle

When introducing people to "what Buddhism is," would you explain to them the 4 noble truths, as a "beginner" course, or would you consider the 4 noble truths to be a more advanced instruction?

I would suggest they read the transcript and listen to this MP3:

"What is Buddhism?"

http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Talks/Transcripts/WHAT-MAR03-TS.htm

Kwantum_Kev

I think that any introduction to Buddhism needs to mention the 4 Noble Truths, as they are the core beliefs that comprise the spiritual tradition. What I think is important when introducing them to newcomers, especially those who are more familiar with western traditions, is to find ways to phrase them that seem somewhat more palatable, and more understandable.

For example, as aMatt said above, one way to interpret them is not using the word 'suffering,' but instead, unsatisfying, or unsatisfactory. A book I like a lot that takes a great approach like this is "Awakening to the Buddha Within" by Lama Surya Das. I find that he has a great way of describing the 4 Noble Truths in a way that is especially palatable to western thinkers and perhaps it would be worth a look for you.

Best of luck and namaste'.

Kwan Kev

Dazzle

I would suggest they read the transcript and listen to this MP3:

"What is Buddhism?"

http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Talks/Transcripts/WHAT-MAR03-TS.htm

Forgot to mention that Ven. Bhante Vimalaramsi talks about the 4 Noble Truths at the link above.

.