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Did Buddha teach we have to abstain from everything, including our professional success?
snGus
Veteran
If I pursue my professional success, my wealth and comfort in this life will I be diverging from Buddhas teachings?
This is an interesting point because if everyone were simply abstaining from all these things, we wouldn't see people working, for example, in technologies (because they wouldn't pursue the money accruing from the patents). So, among other things, there will be no internet or at least it wouldn't be available in a price me and other people would be able to pay and therefore I would never have contact with the Buddha's great teachings.
So I wonder if this total abstaining from everything is actually what Buddha taught. Is it?
Given the importance of this subject, it would be relevant that if anyone who wished to answer this question quoted or linked his/her answer to a passage of the Buddhist Canon (the Tripitaka or the Mahayana Canon) that enforced his/her answer. I ask for quotations because mere answers regarding what the answer thinks is irrelevant since what really matter here is what Buddha taught. I will take any answer that is not quoted or linked to a passage from the Canon as irrelevant because this is not a matter of personal opinions. This is something anyone who decided to follow the path to enlightenment should care, ask and research (I'm researching it myself but with no success so far) so I think I should not be the only one who will take as irrelevant non quoted or non linked answers.
This is an interesting point because if everyone were simply abstaining from all these things, we wouldn't see people working, for example, in technologies (because they wouldn't pursue the money accruing from the patents). So, among other things, there will be no internet or at least it wouldn't be available in a price me and other people would be able to pay and therefore I would never have contact with the Buddha's great teachings.
So I wonder if this total abstaining from everything is actually what Buddha taught. Is it?
Given the importance of this subject, it would be relevant that if anyone who wished to answer this question quoted or linked his/her answer to a passage of the Buddhist Canon (the Tripitaka or the Mahayana Canon) that enforced his/her answer. I ask for quotations because mere answers regarding what the answer thinks is irrelevant since what really matter here is what Buddha taught. I will take any answer that is not quoted or linked to a passage from the Canon as irrelevant because this is not a matter of personal opinions. This is something anyone who decided to follow the path to enlightenment should care, ask and research (I'm researching it myself but with no success so far) so I think I should not be the only one who will take as irrelevant non quoted or non linked answers.
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Comments
- The Buddha
If you feel you need money to be happy go after it.
Renunciation is a part of the monastic life, not lay life.
The Five Precepts that Lay People take upon: Lay persons add 3 more in times of intensive meditation practice (The Eight Precepts). No luxurious place of sleeping, no eating after noon, and refrain from entertainment and beautification.
In addition to those though there is this story: Are you becoming greedy? If not, then don't worry mate.
The Jatakamala was written by Arya Shura about Shakyamuni's past lives.
When I get home tonight, I will do some digging and see if I can find a direct quote. Good topic for discussion though, and I look forward to seeing the other comments.
Namaste'
Kwan Kev
[General Siha:] "Is it possible, lord, to point out a fruit of generosity visible in the here & now?"
[The Buddha:] "It is possible, Siha. One who gives, who is a master of giving, is dear & charming to people at large. And the fact that who gives, who is a master of giving, is dear & charming to people at large: this is a fruit of generosity visible in the here & now.
-
Read the damn sutras for yourself.
1) arrogant, because you're assuming the Buddhist should not be teaching the Dharma to those who ask for it. And that would contradict the Buddhism as a whole, because the disciples of Buddha are the ones who firstly did spread Buddha's teachings until it was written down. Also, even tho there are the Canons, it's ok to guide someone trough it.
2) careless to those who want to have a more profound contact with the Buddha's teachings written in the Canons, which is my case.
For me, you answer was very offensive and unnecessary.
If we look at the Eightfold Path, one of it is Right Livelihood. This is different for monastics and householders. For the monastics, their work is in teaching the dhamma for others' welfare and not for the purpose of gain or accumulation. And their work is supported by people in return and provided with the 3 basic necessities.
For the householders though, it is different because many have different priorities in life . Someone asked the Buddha a related question:
"We, Lord, are lay people who enjoy worldly pleasure. We lead a life encumbered by wife and children. We use Kasi fabrics and sandalwood. We wear garlands, perfume and creams. We use gold and silver. Let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma to those like us, for our happiness and well-being in this life, for our happiness and well being in lives to come."
Below are some of the suttas given especially to householders regarding this matter.
http://www.buddhagautama.com/apps/blog/categories/show/841849-right-livelihood-guidelines-for-household-life-only-
Right Livelihood For Householders: Prosperity as an Outlet For Generosity and Work as an Outlet for the Expression of Compassion
Whether the pursuit of prosperity is wholesome or unwholesome depends on a person's motive for pursuing prosperity , the actions taken for achieving prosperity, and how the person uses his/ her wealth. Activities that are ego driven and self-centered can bring more harm to the world and people than it can contribute . Instead, we can see it as an outlet for expressing compassion.
1. Motive for pursuing : Compassion and Generosity as Opposed to Greed and Self-Serving Desires
Whenever a desire arises, there is also a feeling of discontentment or restlessness that accompanies it. The way that many people approach the vague sense of discontentment in life is by trying to fulfill desires. It is true that you get a temporary relief from discontentment by this method, but before you know it another desire arises along with the sense of discontentment. And again, you need to do something to appease the discontentment. This traps you in a vicious cycle instead of providing a permanent solution. That is the reason that whatever you may acquire in life, there is vague under current of discontentment that never leave for good. And happiness is always just around the corner. Aside from food, clothing, and shelter, the body doesn't requires that much more . But the mind cannot be made to feel satisfied or fulfilled by any amount of material forms or objects, because it is more like an energy frequency than a tangible form. It requires energy that come from stillness rather than things. Therefore, it is not a good idea to pursue wealth out of greed , desires, and mere self-serving purposes. Rather one should obtain wealth as a means for some wholesome purpose, such as for practicing generosity and bringing our compassion into action.
2. How One Acquires Prosperity: Like a Bee Collecting Honey Without Harming the Flowers
Wealth should be acquired through just means. The person engaged in profit-making should not deceive or harm customers or any others in the process. Aside from cultivating prosperity, one's livelihood should be a means for providing service to other people in society. Therefore, a livelihood that brings harm to people, animals, or nature, defeats this purpose. When the actions taken for achieving prosperity is also a means to contribute to other people in society, it not only benefit oneself, but the society that we live in as well.
3. Ways of Using Prosperity : Wealth Like a Rainfall That Nourishes Life
Prosperity should never be an end in itself, but merely a means to some wholesome purpose. For example, to benefit oneself, parents, family, employees, the needy, and to support monastics who have dedicated their lives to self-purification and realization of enlightenment ( Angutarra Nikaya V). The use of wealth in this balanced way would be meaningful to oneself, to those one lives with. (Sigalovada Sutta)
When a person's action in cultivating prosperity contributes to other people and the motivation is based on compassion and generosity, just the action alone is beneficial to society. And the resulted prosperity is beneficial to oneself and loved ones when it is properly use. In this way , the cultivation of prosperity is beneficial to everyone involved.
With metta,
I don't think you left any bases uncovered.
@snGus
Where do you see a conflict in the path and prosperity? What brought this question to mind?
You placed dead letters above the living mind.
4 truths and 8 fold path.
He said this himself before he died: "I have only ever taught 2 things in my lifetime. The rest you hear is just extra comentry added over the years"
Yet he did not say this was bad. In fact he told us to always be open and not just take his words for it. X
Just turn towards experience and liberate from greed, delusion, and anger which only lead to your suffering.
(29 Jun 2003)
Summary: All forms of Buddhism emphasise that being fully Enlightened is the only way to fully help others. This can be a difficult concept for us to understand but thinking and reflecting on it is a powerful and humbling way to practice.
A student writes:
"I've read that Tibetan Buddhism says it's not possible to fully help others until you are Enlightened. If this is correct, it suggests a rather limited existence spent only in search of one's own development. Surely trying to alleviate the suffering of others can be a path to Self Realisation/Enlightenment. Could you comment on this?"
Shenpen replies:
The answer to your question is in the word 'fully'. Obviously, if we could fully help others without being Enlightened, there would be no need for Enlightenment!
There is also a bit of a problem with the word Enlightenment (or Awakening, I am using the words synonymously here). We refer to various levels of realisation as Enlightenment and some of these are stages at which we still cannot fully help others.
The point is that 'fully' is referring to a difference between Enlightenment and full Enlightenment, which can be compared to the difference between an atom and all the atoms in space, or better still, a single point and all conceivable points (which is inconceivable and mysterious).
On the way to the realisation of full Enlightenment there are many levels of liberation from suffering, levels from which there is no falling back, each one of which one could also call 'Enlightenment'.
Yet, on every level, including that of the most ordinary of beings such as ourselves (or those who are even further away from Enlightenment than we are), we are able to help others in all sorts of ways.
As you point out, this capacity, will, and all our actions to help others is what actually propels us along the path to Enlightenment. Furthermore, that capacity to help others increases as we progress towards Enlightenment.
The reason that in all forms of Buddhism (not just Tibetan or not just Mahayana Buddhism, for that matter) emphasis is put on Enlightenment being the only way to fully help others, is because from where we are now it is a difficult concept to grasp.
It requires a lot of faith to put off rushing around helping people in practical ways now, in order to pursue the good of others through a life of meditation and reflection. That faith comes from a deep understanding of the true nature of reality, of suffering, of what it means to be a human being. As our understanding deepens, our faith deepens and then our sense that it is important to put aside immediate concerns for those around us and concentrate on the ultimate benefit for ourselves and others can grow.
The problem is that this can become distorted so that it appears to us that leading a contemplative life is a way of escaping the trauma of living in the world. It is important that we turn towards the contemplative life with conviction and deep understanding and not just out of cowardice or wanting to hide from suffering. If one embraces the contemplative life with the latter motivation, it achieves very little of benefit for oneself or others, and one might well argue it would be better to stay in the world and deepen one's understanding of life, until true conviction and :om: renunciation :om: arises.
It is a chicken and egg situation really. The more you meditate and reflect, the deeper your understanding can go and so naturally your motivation for practice becomes purer. You don't wait until your motive is pure, before meditating, even if we are talking here of just stopping to meditate for five minutes three times a day. The important thing is that we stop and give time to meditation and reflection, because that is what starts off the process of Enlightenment.
What happens is that in the midst of a busy life, with many demands on our time, there is always the sense that withdrawing to meditate and reflect is somehow turning away from others who are in need of our help. It is important to realise that there will always be far more people out there for us to help than we can cope with. We are just one human being and the beings there are to help are limitless. So the path to Enlightenment always means we have to prioritise what we do. We have to stop rushing around trying to help everyone right now. We have to withdraw from the fray, even if it's just for an hour a day, in order to make progress on the path to Enlightenment.
Each step of the way, the nearer to Enlightenment we get, the more we can help others. So we have to have the courage to make a stand and say 'No' to the constant busyness of trying to help others now, in order to help them more later. This applies to a busy life where we put aside an hour a day to meditate, as much as to someone who decides the time has come to live their whole life as a hermit.
So that is why thinking and reflecting on the truth that we can only fully help others when we are fully Enlightened is a very powerful and humbling way to
We are all in our own journey of understanding our own awareness / pollutant in order to be free of it , in order to be pure and be empty .
Buddhism should not stop you from what you want to do but in Buddha you must be awake of what you must do . In Buddha there is no wrong act or right act , no true or false is all up to your understanding of your awareness .
So learn be selfless equally to all kind of living or non-living , free ourself from love or hate , free ourself from ego , free ourself from all emotions will free ourself from pollutant that will be no "ourself" anymore .
This will be a long process of birth/survive/death process to learn and be free .
But to give up the lay life and pursue the spiritual life
whole-heartedly is definitely highly recommended by Buddha.
If everyone becomes monks, there will be no technology?
If everyone becomes doctors, there will be no teachers.
Look around you, how many people wants to become monks/nuns.
I believe the statistic is around 1 in 100,000.
Namaste'
Kwan Kev
Pabbaja Sutta: The Going Forth.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.01.than.html
Ud 5.6 PTS: Ud 57
Sona Sutta: About Sona
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html
it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?"
Kind regards
Monastics might practice for other reasons, such as Enlightenment. Monastics are supposed to be more committed and are the ones that set the dhamma as their top priority. For this reason their training is more comprehensive . The Buddha would instruct them on all three division of the Eightfold path along with the training guidelines for monastics( Vinaya).
A small number of householders incorporate all three division of the Eightfold Path and have the necessary conducive conditions do get as far as Non-returning. But this is difficult to find because there are so many things demanding your time and attention in the householder lifestyle. I would say that the monastics lifestyle set up by the Buddha can be extremely important for those who set dhamma practice and enlightenment as their top priority.
With metta,
But doesn't it also go against what the Buddha taught just a bit - that we all have Buddha nature within us? If the Dhamma is a living thing, something that lives within each of us, could it not be said that we are all Buddhas?
I understand the desire to hear it "straight from the camel's mouth" per se. But I am sure there are things that even the Buddha said that were not entirely of his mind alone . The very nature of dependent origination would seem to guarantee that.
I would like to state that I am not adding this comment to be contradictory, and as I said, I understand the spirit behind it. I too find myself searching the texts for answers sometimes. I do think it is important however to be open to the teachings all around us and to always remember that life is Dhamma, that we are all Buddhas, and that our greatest teacher is the one that we recognize in each moment.
Namaste'
Kwan Kev
1) Buddha said we have to abstain from everything, including our professional success and live this live in homelessness just to accumulate good karma for a better next life;
OR
2) Buddha said we can pursue our wealth and success in this life but this is written in some unknown passage on the Canon but the Buddhist community worldwide don't give much importance to the word of Buddha written down on the Canon so apparently no one knows the Canon enough to answer in short words "Yes this is in accordance to Buddha's teachings as said in the X part of the Canon" or "No this goes against Buddha's teachings as said in the X part of the Canon".
I believe this second conclusion would fit better the reality. I've been noticing that people, not only from this forums but the Buddhist in general, don't read or systematically study the Canon profoundly. The reasons could be many, ranging from lack of time to lack of interest.
I've been consulting Buddhists for some weeks now and every of them gave similar answers as the above, without pointing in the Canon the due substantiation.
As matter of fact this could answer why the Canon haven't still been fully translated to other language than Pali and Chinese. Maybe the nowadays Buddhist community is not willing to go for a profound understanding of the Dharma, which would require easy access to a fully translated and indexed version of the Cannon. The best we have so far is the Access to Insight website. But we don't have a book or an e-book with a decent table of contents so we could easily browse it and read it at the part we are interested in a given moment.
And I dare say maybe the reason such a material is still nonexistent is because the nowadays Buddhist community is not interested enough in having such a material. The way the Dharma is being transmitted is basically the oral way. There is a lot of written material, such as the Buddhism related books we find in bookstores from many authors that intent to teach the Dharma, talking about the main concepts of Buddhism but none of them really quotes the Canon.
So advanced matters like the professional success and wealth issue tend to remain unanswered.
Many books and many people have told me that it's best to abstain from everything, although they don't fully abstain from everything themselves (the authors, in the case of the books).
Or maybe I'm just diverging from Buddhas teachings but in that case I don't think I would be incurring in bad karma since in the other hand I had no access to Buddha's teachings that would lead me to the right answer.
I can't just believe Buddha would teach we have to simply abstain from everything because if that was his teaching then the Dharma wouldn't be exposed to millions of people like me who rely on printed books and internet to have access to the basic teachings of Buddha (since a profound teaching is unavailable, as I said)
'2) Buddha said we can pursue our wealth and success in this life but this is written in some unknown passage on the Canon'
Both have their pros and cons.
If you practice the Dhamma, you'll gain insight into what is good for your life and what is bad.
Can you find a reason for why professional success is counter to the Dhamma? I haven't found one. He didn't come to that conclusion, just an observation based on Buddhist replies. Many think that you can pursue wealth and still pursue the Dhamma. However they do not have canonical support for that idea (which I really don't understand why that nullifies the belief).
The Buddhas teachings were not written down until almost 500 years after his death. The oral tradition, which means limited citation, is how the teachings have been preserved for THOUSANDS of years. Instead of demanding what you consider to be a proper form of instruction, specifically quotable written material pointing out exactly what to do and what not to do, you should study and practice the teachings that are available and thus come to the answers through personal insight.
The Buddha did not answer every mundane, lay inquiry that comes to mind, because he expounded the path that leads to unbinding, not the path that leads to "okay for now." The path that leads to unbinding requries full renunciation, in body speach and mind, of all worldly attachment, including but not limited to wealth and material gain. The Buddha and his diciples were beggars. That is what Bikkhu literally means, Beggar.
Just because the answers aren't what you expected or wanted, doesn't make them wrong.
I don't think so! However, He did teach to abstain from "Craving" (tanha) and "Clinging" (upadana) for cessation of dukkha. (Craving and clinging are the 8th and 9th links of dependent origination).
On the other hand, if the Buddha's path could be realized fully amid involvement in worldly concerns, then there would be no reason for anyone to go forth and abandon "the dusty, crowded household life" in favor of monasticism -- unless they just happened to prefer a celibate lifestyle with no meals after noon.
So there must be room for both. More a question of one's particular aspirations and capabilities, and the relative urgency of wanting to leave behind samsara.
Anyway, the lack of canonical support does not nullify the idea of pursuing professional success and wealth and the Dharma simultaneously. But still I have some books and many replies above implying that pursuing my professional success and wealthy would be loosing karma or at least diverging from the Buddha's teaching. That's why I need to know if Buddha really told that.
And I need to know it not only for pursuing my mundane wishes and following the Dharma simultaneously. The other reason why---and the greater reason, actually---is that it's thanks to my so far pursue of the mundane stuff that I could get in contact with the Dharma, trough internet and books. And also a place, a house, to read and learn about it. People from poor regions can't even come into contact with the Dharma because they don't have the material ways to do so: some of them struggle for the minimum as necessary for surviving, others are enslaved and can't engage in any spiritual activity like learning about Buddha and his teachings, etc. Even the books that I've read about Buddhism and this internet website would be inaccessible for me if I and my family had not engaged in a struggle to earn money and wealth. And if everybody didn't do so, then maybe internet and many other technologies wouldn't exist or be cheap enough so me and millions of people would have access, among other things, to Buddhist content.
So it would be a paradox if Buddha taught you should not pursue professional success and wealth. It would be contradictory because by pursuing your wealthy and material stuff you are stepping forward to make path for your own chance enlightenment. And Buddha was the enlightened one! He wouldn't teach something such an abstention of the mundane things if this would not bring the enlightenment for millions of people. This being said, in a rational view, to end the suffering one must have material goods to support spiritual enlightenment.
But I need a passage from the Canon in which Buddha taught this. Or a passage that he taught another lesson that would rebut this line of thinking.
It's almost like a lay life vs monastic life issue.
For a number of people , that is the case. It is due to their lack of interest in practicing the dhamma ( meditation, mindfulness, dhamma talk, etc..) . For these people Buddha would instruct them on one of the three division because they are more concern with secular matter and are not interested or ready to focus on dhamma practice or study.
For householders that are more ready he would give further instruction to take them into at least one of the stages of Enlightenment. There are various stages of Enlightenment. It depends on which one you are talking about. There are Stream Entry, Once Returning, Non-Returning, and Arahant.
According to the texts a householder can get as far as Stream Entry and Once Returning and engage in ordinary household lifestyle and business as usual.
For example, Visakha was a Stream Enterer, but she didn't have to abandon her wealth or stop being a millionaire. She was married, have children and grandchildren.
Isadatta and Purana are both Once Returners while living the lay life. They are Chamberlains to the King . The Buddha didn't tell them to abandon their wealth , success, or career as royal chamberlains .
There are householders that are Non-Returners, however they are celibate. The reason is because the five lower fetters are eradicated in them , which includes lust. For example, Citta, Visakha ( a different one by the same name) .
As I pointed out above with examples that it is possible to practice for Stream Entry and Once Returning ( the first two stages of Enlightenment) while living a household life.
Many are unclear about what the Buddha taught regarding Right Livelihood for householders and sometimes confused it the instruction on Right Livelihood for monastics. Instructions on these matters for householders exist in the suttas. About 20 percent of the suttas are for householders only, but unfortunately they are mixed up within the rest of the other suttas. It can be difficult for people to locate them within the Canon unless they search through the entire Canon. I guess someone will have to go through the canon and locate the suttas on this particular subject and list them in one place for householders to access easily without having to go through the entire Canon to look suttas on this particular subject.
Below is just one an example of a sutta where the Buddha instructs about earning and using what you earned :
With metta,
Success can be a channel for good or bad depending our skillful or unskillful intention, choices and actions.
With metta,
Use da money dat ya earned from hustlin ta help the needy and Buddhist organisations to propagate da Dharma!!!
We could have great financial wealth and be unattached to it, or we might have nothing and be very attached to having nothing.
— Charlotte Joko Beck, Everyday Zen
http://cowpi.com/quotes/detachment/
I will die. That's for sure.
When will I die? I dont know. Today, tomorrow or in 20 years?
So, do I want to spend my time & energy pursuing wealth & success?
Or do I want to pursue liberation instead?
here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.062.than.html
here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/007-pattakammavaggo-e.html (1st sutta)
here (quoted below): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html
The wise and virtuous shine like a blazing fire.
He who acquires his wealth in harmless ways
like to a bee that honey gathers,
riches mount up for him
like ant hill's rapid growth.
With wealth acquired this way,
a layman fit for household life,
in portions four divides his wealth:
thus will he friendship win.
One portion for his wants he uses,
two portions on his business spends,
the fourth for times of need he keeps.
here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.04.piya.html
here (quoted below): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.11.budd.html
155. Those who in youth have not led the holy life, or have failed to acquire wealth, languish like old cranes in the pond without fish.
156. Those who in youth have not lead the holy life, or have failed to acquire wealth, lie sighing over the past, like worn out arrows (shot from) a bow.
we can read here, starting half way down the page, about the Rasiya Sutta
http://sasanarakkha.org/print.php?content=articles/labels/Balacitta.html
the relevent excerpt from the Rasiya Sutta (SN 42.12) is below:
In my humble view:
to access money allows us to give money away, to achieve a powerful position in our career allows us to influence both other workers and the industry itself in a positive way. Unless you make money choosing to: kill people, persistently lying, stealing, as a prostitute or (somehow) by ingesting large quantities of intoxicating drugs, your career has no worse affect on your life than any other lay-person daily activity. Everything we do has the potential for positives and negatives, it is only what we choose to make them that affects our lives.
I am afraid I cannot be bothered to look up quotes that support my opinions, they may not even fully exist, but since every interpretation of quotes automatically involves our own in-put, I highly doubt it would be purposeful anyway.
the basic Buddhist principle is: (1) study; (2) practise; (3) realisation
you think you will acheive professional success by being spoon-fed like a baby?
sounds like you did not read the answers because the member named 'dharma' provided the answer with thoroughness
good luck for your professional career where it seems like study & reading is a struggle for you
:buck: :wow: