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I am so excited...I just got the book last night from the library and started reading it before bed. I love it so far. Looking forward to our discussion about it!
I don't know if I will or not yet, so I want to know if the option to join will still be there once the discussion has started or if we have to decide (and say so) beforehand. :hiding:
I don't know if I will or not yet, so I want to know if the option to join will still be there once the discussion has started or if we have to decide (and say so) beforehand. :hiding:
You have a lot to contribute, even if you don't always think so.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
Aquula, I second ZenMonk's comment... there are no stringent rules, eg's and guidelines here... it's an open door for everyone to come in, observe, join in contribute - or not, in whichever way they feel they'd like.... I would personally be very happy to know that you'd feel comfortable posting whatever you feel, and not worry about the rest.
I've thought a lot about what Zenmonk Genryu has to say about our beliefs getting in the way of our experiences and our practice. I hope that the beliefs talked about in TBOL&D will contribute something very positive to our discussion, and yet I wonder at the ramifications of having beliefs in something that we cannot "prove."
Sorry, couldn't wait until Sunday. Am I going to be banished?
The thing is to see directly. If you see then you know. If you know, there is no need for belief. This is why the Dharma is a matter of, "Come and see." Not, "Come and believe."
I know I'm straying off topic but I really want to get this off my chest. I was watching Primetime tonight (a TV newsmagazine on ABC, not great but not tabloid) and it was about a story they've been following for two years about the Colorado City Mormon population who follow a prophet (can't remember his name) and polygamy. This prophet dude lives in a compound and has a bunch of muscle men who patrol the city keeping out strangers etc. He sounds like your typical cult leader, even down to the prophesying a showdown with the outside world. The angle of their investigation is the women and children who are being held and brainwashed, forced to marry in their teens, etc.
Anyway, one woman who ended up having to marry her sister's husband and gave birth to 5 children managed to escape with the help of an activist from outside the community. Tragically she ended up going back to her husband with her children (whom she had gained custody of). On the show this woman gains enough strength while she's outside the community to go back and face some of the horrors, one of which was her father who had over 50 children with 7 wives and molested many of the girls. He was so completely convinced he had done nothing wrong that he said he believed he owned his children like livestock and they were willing and consentual partners. He believed what he was doing wasn't wrong. He believed this, he believed that...on and on and on. Of course claiming all this belief on religious grounds. He claimed he couldn't remember...or in his words; "I remember you (his daughter) as being among the few that I didn't do this with." "If I did, I'm sorry". There was no hostility, defensiveness or even the smugness of a sociopath, just this kind of strange sense that what he did to his children during his life was fine. He said he thought it was no big deal. It appeared to me that he felt this way because of his religious beliefs.
Belief is not only insufficient for spiritual understanding, it's dangerous. And in so many ways and under some many guises. This woman who had escaped for two years ended up going back to her husband who had had her arrested and institutionalized 4 times and had threatened to take her out to the desert to kill her. She brought her five children with her as well. She simply couldn't get over the brainwashing of her entire life. Her one condition was that she be his only wife. And now they're one big happy family. The sick, twisted nature of these beliefs are self evident. I've had all I can take of unsubstantiated, blind belief.
The only reason I'm posting this here is just because I needed to get this off my chest. It's not in response to any posts here. It was just random. I was thinking about belief the whole time I was watching the show and you guys are the only ones who'd understand what I'm talking about.
I know I'm straying off topic but I really want to get this off my chest. I was watching Primetime tonight (a TV newsmagazine on ABC, not great but not tabloid) and it was about a story they've been following for two years about the Colorado City Mormon population who follow a prophet (can't remember his name) and polygamy. This prophet dude lives in a compound and has a bunch of muscle men who patrol the city keeping out strangers etc. He sounds like your typical cult leader, even down to the prophesying a showdown with the outside world. The angle of their investigation is the women and children who are being held and brainwashed, forced to marry in their teens, etc.
Anyway, one woman who ended up having to marry her sister's husband and gave birth to 5 children managed to escape with the help of an activist from outside the community. Tragically she ended up going back to her husband with her children (whom she had gained custody of). On the show this woman gains enough strength while she's outside the community to go back and face some of the horrors, one of which was her father who had over 50 children with 7 wives and molested many of the girls. He was so completely convinced he had done nothing wrong that he said he believed he owned his children like livestock and they were willing and consentual partners. He believed what he was doing wasn't wrong. He believed this, he believed that...on and on and on. Of course claiming all this belief on religious grounds. He claimed he couldn't remember...or in his words; "I remember you (his daughter) as being among the few that I didn't do this with." "If I did, I'm sorry". There was no hostility, defensiveness or even the smugness of a sociopath, just this kind of strange sense that what he did to his children during his life was fine. He said he thought it was no big deal. It appeared to me that he felt this way because of his religious beliefs.
Belief is not only insufficient for spiritual understanding, it's dangerous. And in so many ways and under some many guises. This woman who had escaped for two years ended up going back to her husband who had had her arrested and institutionalized 4 times and had threatened to take her out to the desert to kill her. She brought her five children with her as well. She simply couldn't get over the brainwashing of her entire life. Her one condition was that she be his only wife. And now they're one big happy family. The sick, twisted nature of these beliefs are self evident. I've had all I can take of unsubstantiated, blind belief.
The only reason I'm posting this here is just because I needed to get this off my chest. It's not in response to any posts here. It was just random. I was thinking about belief the whole time I was watching the show and you guys are the only ones who'd understand what I'm talking about.
Thanks
Brigid
Brigid,
You're right when you talk about belief being a dominant force....Its incrediable what people are able to do when they believe something wholeheartedly. You are also right in that people who abuse others, either physically or mentally ever rarely admit that what they are doing is/was wrong. I understand your annoyance, though this may be looked upon as a good lesson about compassion and understanding. What you, I and all the others do at NB may be construded by others as much of the same thing. Their are personalities here that are stronger than others...someone might critize and say that we are simply (blindly?) following them? Who knows??
Another point is to always be aware that the media is able to put their slant on issuses thus creating their "stories". I know you know this, though I thought I would mention it anyway....
I saw that too, Brigid...(maybe not the exact show, but one aired here around the time your mentioned)
I was appalled to say the least.
I feel for those women....
Me, too, Sharpiegirl. I'm sure it was the same show. It was Primetime on ABC and they're the ones who have been following it for two years. It's heartbreaking.
Actually, it's amazing how quickly one can get "conditioned" into an abusive relationship. The people who practice this sort of thing are expert manipulators and exert a psychological pressure as great, if not greater, than the physical abuse, so that the victim quite quickly comes to accept that it is their fault, that this is normal and that somehow they hold the key to making it stop if only they can behave "better" and stop "forcing" their partner to have to beat/rape/torture them.
The best book I have ever read on the subject is Irish - The Woman Who Walked into Doors - I can recommend it.
I think today was the official start date...
So here it goes....
I have read quite a bit into the book so far, but I will keep my comments to the first chapter (except for one which is in chapter 2).
Chapter one has two stories of Sogyul Rinpoche's experiences wih death. Although he was young and just learning, these experiences proved to be enlightening to him. The deaths he was witness to were...I don't like to say beautiful....but..peaceful, I guess. (I'm afraid I cannot be more clear on that at the moment).
Since reading the chapter 1 a few weeks ago, I have attended an unfortunate and untimely death of a 17 year old young man. At the age of 15, James was diagnosed with Leukemia. His first words upon hearing this news (as a 15 year old boy!) were, "There will be no tears inthis room".
For a year he battled and won. About 7 months ago, the leukemia returned. After a bone marrow transplant from his sister, the procedure failed. James fought with courage and was always upbeat...never wanting his family to be upset.
In chapter 2 (and this is only part of one small paragraph so I am not 'spilling any beans here) Sogyul Rinpoche stated that "Tibetan Buddhists believe that illnesses like cancer can be a warning, to remind us that we have been neglecting deep aspects of our being, such as our spiritual needs..." (pg. 31)
I wonder to whom this 'lesson' is meant: to him? his family?
I am having a very difficult time grasping this idea. I am uncomfrotable with it...it seems like a person is given a 'punishment' for either themselves or their families to understand that they are not living up to their spirituality...sounds almost hardcore Christian....
to relate to you..
my niece was born with a very rare disease.. chances of her developing cancer
were high.. 6 months into her life she developed cancer.. she had EVERY DAM
OPERATION / BLOOD TRANSFUSION .. THE LIST GOES ON AND ON!!
she died at 2 /12.. ??
im left with questions to.. karma?? hmmm maybe from another life?
i dont no..
im scratchin to.. : (
I think you have to remember that there are different flavors of Buddhism, just like there are different flavors of Christianity, Islam, etc.
Tibetan Buddhists may believe this, but I don't know that it goes for all branches. I haven't read chapter two yet, but I think I would have a hard time agreeing that illnesses can be a warning other than, "you don't take care of this body, and it won't take care of you.". In those terms I can handle a teaching like this.
Comments
Have you tried getting it on Amazon?
I don't know if I will or not yet, so I want to know if the option to join will still be there once the discussion has started or if we have to decide (and say so) beforehand. :hiding:
http://www.lifepositive.com/Spirit/world-religions/buddhism/sogyal.asp
You have a lot to contribute, even if you don't always think so.
Your Chicken Little is the most precious little guy! I love him so much.
I don't know when my copy will arrive so I'll just keep track by reading and when I'm ready I'll try to contribute.
Love to all,
Brigid
Sorry, couldn't wait until Sunday. Am I going to be banished?
:rocker:
Anyway, one woman who ended up having to marry her sister's husband and gave birth to 5 children managed to escape with the help of an activist from outside the community. Tragically she ended up going back to her husband with her children (whom she had gained custody of). On the show this woman gains enough strength while she's outside the community to go back and face some of the horrors, one of which was her father who had over 50 children with 7 wives and molested many of the girls. He was so completely convinced he had done nothing wrong that he said he believed he owned his children like livestock and they were willing and consentual partners. He believed what he was doing wasn't wrong. He believed this, he believed that...on and on and on. Of course claiming all this belief on religious grounds. He claimed he couldn't remember...or in his words; "I remember you (his daughter) as being among the few that I didn't do this with." "If I did, I'm sorry". There was no hostility, defensiveness or even the smugness of a sociopath, just this kind of strange sense that what he did to his children during his life was fine. He said he thought it was no big deal. It appeared to me that he felt this way because of his religious beliefs.
Belief is not only insufficient for spiritual understanding, it's dangerous. And in so many ways and under some many guises. This woman who had escaped for two years ended up going back to her husband who had had her arrested and institutionalized 4 times and had threatened to take her out to the desert to kill her. She brought her five children with her as well. She simply couldn't get over the brainwashing of her entire life. Her one condition was that she be his only wife. And now they're one big happy family. The sick, twisted nature of these beliefs are self evident. I've had all I can take of unsubstantiated, blind belief.
The only reason I'm posting this here is just because I needed to get this off my chest. It's not in response to any posts here. It was just random. I was thinking about belief the whole time I was watching the show and you guys are the only ones who'd understand what I'm talking about.
Thanks
Brigid
Brigid,
You're right when you talk about belief being a dominant force....Its incrediable what people are able to do when they believe something wholeheartedly. You are also right in that people who abuse others, either physically or mentally ever rarely admit that what they are doing is/was wrong. I understand your annoyance, though this may be looked upon as a good lesson about compassion and understanding. What you, I and all the others do at NB may be construded by others as much of the same thing. Their are personalities here that are stronger than others...someone might critize and say that we are simply (blindly?) following them? Who knows??
Another point is to always be aware that the media is able to put their slant on issuses thus creating their "stories". I know you know this, though I thought I would mention it anyway....
You go Girl!!!!!:bowdown:
I was appalled to say the least.
I feel for those women....
Brigid
The best book I have ever read on the subject is Irish - The Woman Who Walked into Doors - I can recommend it.
So here it goes....
I have read quite a bit into the book so far, but I will keep my comments to the first chapter (except for one which is in chapter 2).
Chapter one has two stories of Sogyul Rinpoche's experiences wih death. Although he was young and just learning, these experiences proved to be enlightening to him. The deaths he was witness to were...I don't like to say beautiful....but..peaceful, I guess. (I'm afraid I cannot be more clear on that at the moment).
Since reading the chapter 1 a few weeks ago, I have attended an unfortunate and untimely death of a 17 year old young man. At the age of 15, James was diagnosed with Leukemia. His first words upon hearing this news (as a 15 year old boy!) were, "There will be no tears inthis room".
For a year he battled and won. About 7 months ago, the leukemia returned. After a bone marrow transplant from his sister, the procedure failed. James fought with courage and was always upbeat...never wanting his family to be upset.
In chapter 2 (and this is only part of one small paragraph so I am not 'spilling any beans here) Sogyul Rinpoche stated that "Tibetan Buddhists believe that illnesses like cancer can be a warning, to remind us that we have been neglecting deep aspects of our being, such as our spiritual needs..." (pg. 31)
I wonder to whom this 'lesson' is meant: to him? his family?
I am having a very difficult time grasping this idea. I am uncomfrotable with it...it seems like a person is given a 'punishment' for either themselves or their families to understand that they are not living up to their spirituality...sounds almost hardcore Christian....
Am I missing something??????:scratch:
to relate to you..
my niece was born with a very rare disease.. chances of her developing cancer
were high.. 6 months into her life she developed cancer.. she had EVERY DAM
OPERATION / BLOOD TRANSFUSION .. THE LIST GOES ON AND ON!!
she died at 2 /12.. ??
im left with questions to.. karma?? hmmm maybe from another life?
i dont no..
im scratchin to.. : (
I think you have to remember that there are different flavors of Buddhism, just like there are different flavors of Christianity, Islam, etc.
Tibetan Buddhists may believe this, but I don't know that it goes for all branches. I haven't read chapter two yet, but I think I would have a hard time agreeing that illnesses can be a warning other than, "you don't take care of this body, and it won't take care of you.". In those terms I can handle a teaching like this.
But, then - that's just my opinion.
-bf