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If a universe exists and no one is around to perceive it
Does it exist?
I mean I know this is really just a rehash of the old "tree in the forest" koan.
Say there is a hypothetical universe with no awareness... how could it possibly exist?
Do you think existence and awareness are inseparable?
I mean I know this is really just a rehash of the old "tree in the forest" koan.
Say there is a hypothetical universe with no awareness... how could it possibly exist?
Do you think existence and awareness are inseparable?
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Comments
This is my current topic of study (the Two Truths, according to Vaibashika, Sautrantika, Chittimatra and Madhymaka schools of Buddhism); if I try to explain; it could help me, so sorry if it's a bit dry:
Tsongkhapa explains how to determine how things exist conventionally (there are two truths that both coexist together: conventional and ultimate truth):
So, for something to exist...
1. It is known to a conventional consciousness. (This is what Caz is pointing out).
2. No other conventional valid cognition contradicts it being so known.
3. Reason that accurately analyses the reality of whether something inherently exists does not contradict it.
Anything that fails to meet the above criteria is non-existent.
So, I guess, that anything that doesn't exist conventionally, can't possibly exist ultimately. And it takes consciousness to conceive convention. Even Emptiness exists conventionally, though Emptiness is Empty.
Confuses the heck outta me, but I'm fairly new to all this! ;-)
My mind tells me that even if there were no consciousness, that matter could still exist. Also, as sentient beings, isn't it a little arrogant to think that matter couldn't exist without our consciousnesses? Though I guess the counter argument would be, "How is it 'matter' without a mind that cognises 'matter'?"; but this seems to be a play on words, rather than the actual reality.
If anyone could help 'us' out here, I'd certainly appreciate it.
Its a theory that basically through quantum theory, consciousness is the foundation of the universe, as proposed by a serious scientist, not a new age pot head.
Highly interesting
If consciousness is perceived as seminal to the existence of the universe, the cosmos - of what is unconsciousness the progenitor? Anti-matter? Bizarro world? Void?
Does nothing have consciousness? Perception?
Is consciousness truly awareness or merely random synaptic patterns like weather, meteor showers or sun flares - taken as and agreed upon by one
chatty species as verification of existence?
Tying existence to consciousness implies "owning" the cosmos ontologically.
Clearly, no "one" is around to perceive a universe after 130,000 years of trudging around on the earth. The drive to understand as "one" has never relented though. Like flowers we rise and fall - but flowers cannot think.
>Does it exist?
Of course it exists!:)
>I mean I know this is really just a rehash of the old "tree in the forest" koan.
As an asside, I diagree. The tree in the forest thing is about perception and sound, not exitance. if the tree is standing on monday and fallen on tuesday it exists and its falling existed, if it made a sound is a differnt matter philosophically.
>>>Say there is a hypothetical universe with no awareness... how could it possibly exist?
Assuming like me you are a Buddhist who believes in science, then there was such a universe:) It existed for a period of at least a pico second and probably ten billion years as the matter coaleced into stars, planets... evolution... etc.
Do you think our universe didn't exist until awareness emerged from it? (perhaps in some pre-dinosaur fishy in an ancient earthlike ocean)
>>>Do you think existence and awareness are inseparable?
100%. And I think, if you understand the three Marks of Existance you will agree that the Buddha did to:)
Nice topic!:)
http://library.thinkquest.org/27930/wavefunction.htm
who knows for sure :scratch:
Next question?
The Earth is a very dynamic place from the perspective of how we humans perceive the passage of time. The sun and the moon are the engine that drive this dynamic process and, over time, the elements of the Earth have combined and recombined as many different entities.
I was looking at what appeared to be a whale skull on the beach a few weeks ago and I marveled at how some elements from the Earth were able to form such a magnificent structure leaving space for eye, blood vessels and nerves etc. After the whale was finished using it, the skull began it's process of decomposition back into the Earth where it's elements will be again recombined and used to form something else.
I've been thinking of this process as part of the Universe becoming self aware and now that we have evolved into this human form we are literally the eyes and ears of this awareness as it learns about itself. At this point, it is impossible for this physical life as we know it to sustain itself in this dynamic environment but it is possible to reproduce. This reproduction takes part en mass to ensure the survival and progression of the physical awareness.
I think we require the illusion of being separate for this process to take place because, as we see in nature, it relies on killing and eating other living beings to elevate the matter to the higher level of awareness.
Throughout history, there have been very wise people who see the connection between all beings and try to bring that to our attention and promote loving kindness. One of these people was the Buddha who, among other things, recognized the temporary nature of all phenomena.
It is unfortunate that this survival mechanism that manifests itself in us believing we are separate entities has lead to selfishness and conflict even as we build or space telescopes and refine our science and thinking in the discovery process that is the Universe becoming self aware.
Something to think about perhaps.
-cr
[The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html
Best wishes
:buck:
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["So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.
"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.
"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html
Regards
The mind can also keep us going in circles, struggling for answers not based in reality.
Namaste'
Kwan Kev
Its a dualistic in a nondualism
The mind and its thoughts are deeply limited by the underlying foundations of all things that can exist and cause, ie, the Thee Marks, i.e impermanence, emptiness/interconnectivity, causal interdependence.
We think up and express contradictions all the time. The point is that they're all mind-wrought. We can imagine a soul, but a soul contradicts Anicca-Dukkha-Anatta. It exists within the realm of thought, while not apparently existing otherwise. Paradoxes belong to the universe of the mind, while reality has no place for them.
@cloud
I don't think this. We can imagine a soul as a place-holder, not as thing that is both impermanent/changing and discrete simultaneously.
As for paradoxes, they are the products of where language mismatches logic, I can't think of any that are mental constructs.
I'm talking about how our thoughts and perceptions, mind-wrought, can easily contradict reality (and most often do... these are our delusions, such as the delusions of self or permanence).
I think you must be talking about something else entirely and we're missing each other.
BTW: Hello to the forum and have a nice day!
The perceiver is that which is perceived. Perceiver = perceived
Existence is awareness. Existence = awareness.
Form = Emptiness.
Separation is an just an illusion of the mind.
We can only know what we experience otherwise it's just a concept.
All the best,
Todd
It's like reading about sky diving, without having actually exprienced by oneself.
"if the universe exists" : right there, it's a loaded question. The question tells you there is a universe.
"no one around to perceive it" : it perceives itself
Best wishes