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The obesity-health connection debate, continued...
The first part of this discussion can be found here: http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/12479/is-vegetarianism-healthy-does-it-matter-if-its-healthy#Item_127
Take me, for instance. I weigh 210 pounds, with a BMI of 34. Before I started dieting at age 16, I weighed around 182 with a BMI of 27. I had to practically STARVE myself to get to a 'healthy' BMI of 25 and when I look back at the photos of me in the 'healthy' weight range, my face looked positively skeletal. I also had zero energy, pale, dry skin, flaky nails, permanently cold, blue fingertips and my periods were nearly non-existent (there you go - gender confusion cleared up). So, for me AS AN INDIVIDUAL, it suits me better to be bigger. Nowadays I have lots of energy, normal blood pressure and do not have diabetes or heart problems...in fact, the only serious problems I have are mental health ones, likely exacerbated by my years of dieting and the self-hatred that led to it.
It is COMPLETELY unreasonable to AUTOMATICALLY link poor health and high body weight. We have been goaded into this by the press and the diet and exercise industries so that we continue to feel anxious and buy their products.
I would also like to point out that if high body weight really is a health issue rather than a moral one (as it has arguably become), since when has blaming the sufferer produced a decrease in the frequency of that illness? How is scapegoating fat people going to help in any way whatsoever?
@vixthenomadThis is NOT true for everyone, as I've already stated. Some people can eat and eat and eat and stay thin. Others eat less, but are bigger. True, people who have an existing predisposition to become fat are more likely to do so in the modern industrialized world, but the link between diet/calorie intake and weight is NOT as clear-cut as everyone makes out it is.
You say diet is more important than body weight in regards to health, but they are closely connected - if you eat a fatty, sugary, diet, then over time you will become obese.
Take me, for instance. I weigh 210 pounds, with a BMI of 34. Before I started dieting at age 16, I weighed around 182 with a BMI of 27. I had to practically STARVE myself to get to a 'healthy' BMI of 25 and when I look back at the photos of me in the 'healthy' weight range, my face looked positively skeletal. I also had zero energy, pale, dry skin, flaky nails, permanently cold, blue fingertips and my periods were nearly non-existent (there you go - gender confusion cleared up). So, for me AS AN INDIVIDUAL, it suits me better to be bigger. Nowadays I have lots of energy, normal blood pressure and do not have diabetes or heart problems...in fact, the only serious problems I have are mental health ones, likely exacerbated by my years of dieting and the self-hatred that led to it.
Alternatively it can be because you don't exercise enough to burn the energy you consume even from a healthy diet. Our possibly a combination of poor diet and lack of exercise. For these reasons, and public health stats, I think it's not unreasonable to link poor health with obesity..So you are implying that if healthy diet and exercise don't make a person 'thin enough', then it's THEIR fault? Or could it be that their own personal 'ideal weight' - the weight they stabilise at when they aren't over- or undereating - simply falls outside the range that has been deemed 'normal'?
It is COMPLETELY unreasonable to AUTOMATICALLY link poor health and high body weight. We have been goaded into this by the press and the diet and exercise industries so that we continue to feel anxious and buy their products.
I would also like to point out that if high body weight really is a health issue rather than a moral one (as it has arguably become), since when has blaming the sufferer produced a decrease in the frequency of that illness? How is scapegoating fat people going to help in any way whatsoever?
Hey Gumby, did you really think that is what he is doing here? I did not see anyone talking about laziness except you. Some of the hardest working people I know don't get enough exercise. They would be seriously offended to hear you calling them lazy.What is your definition of 'enough' exercise? Enough according to WHOSE standards - yours or theirs? I also asked you to define what you thought of as 'a few extra pounds' in my last comment and you have declined to respond to that question. General terms like these, which have no meaning outside the individual's interpretation of them, simply confound the issue because everyone ends up arguing from different base points.
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And whilst you can be a bit chubby and still healthy (you should see my karate teacher as an example of that!), if you continue to gain weight year on year out, as some people do, you eventually get to the point where your health is severely impaired. Being morbidly obese, as the term implies, means you are not healthy; it is in fact very dangerous. Not to mention very inhibiting of a person's lifestyle.
Well done on keeping your weight down, even if you're not skinny. The latest research suggests that losing weight is three times harder than people imagine, as for every calorie you cut out of your diet, your body tries to compensate by dropping your metabolism. On average, it takes a person three weeks to lose one pound, after an initial faster weight-loss (the first 6 months usually, depending on your weight: heavier people lose faster). It is possible to lose it faster, but as you testify, we're talking seriously hard work in that case.
So it is possible for people who think they're naturally big to get to a weight they desire. It just can take a lot of work. That doesn't mean starving. Just a long term change in diet, smaller portions, no more soda, more water, exercise religiously. All these changes can help one get into a leaner shape, no matter what their genetics are.
It's not easy, but it's possible for those who want it bad enough. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But what it comes down to, is if one can admire themselves in the mirror. That, and living longer is the goal of all the sacrifice.
A good friend of mine was 5.11, 270 pounds, played video games all day. Now he is 195 and weight lifts along side me, as much as I do, and sometimes even more. He is more intelligent now, better socially, more handsome (I'm straight lol), and he's attracting girls into his life now. He's a 24 year old virgin, but I'm sure that will change soon.
Everything for him is only getting better. So I think only good things can come to those that force themselves to get to a healthy weight with the right methods.
Let me give you a testimonial of my own. Since settling at MY weight and size I have entered into and maintained a happy marriage, had two lovely kids, made a bunch of friends who like me for myself and found an emotionally fulfilling career. Not bad for a fat chick, eh? Perhaps being the same size as me is the path to a happy life and everyone should actually be trying to get fatter. Or do you think that these things are probably completely unrelated to my weight? (I do.) If this 'friend' is an actual person and not someone you've invented to make a point, I sincerely hope it works out for him. However, based on my own experience and a ton of research into the subject - not to mention personal stories from a LOT of ex-dieters - I rather suspect it won't.
Humans come in all shapes and sizes. The bottom line is, you need to be healthy for you.
@vix: Mts. knows whereof he speaks. He has a medical education. :thumbsup:
You seem a bit overly defensive about this. I understand that you're happy with your weight and that's fine. It all comes down to how you see yourself. Everything I said about my friend was true, and he would agree with me. He has said things like;
"I'm going to keep working out like this till I die."
"I get so much more attention now at this weight, it was all worth it."
He does not have an eating disorder. Him and I mostly are on the same diet. We eat basically whatever we want, we just limit the portion size, watch how much fried food, or gluten we eat, raise our protein intake. We don't drink too much soda. It's really not bad, but it makes a difference.
When we do eat a lot of junk, we work it off. For the most part we work out 6x a week. As for his intelligence and social abilities, yes they have increased for sure. It is all due to his increased confidence with himself. Through a new level of confidence one does increase their social intelligence, and many other aspects of their mentality.
It is also a huge challenge to go from 270 to 195, and then learn how to build strength and muscle. He has basically given rebirth to a stronger, and smarter version of him. If that offends you, well that's on you. Everyone is different.
Sure maybe you're happily married, with a great sex life, if that's the case. I understand why you feel content. I do know several obese/overweight women who have boyfriends or can get sex whenever they want. I cannot say the same for the obese/overweight men I know. For those dudes, I would tell them to get their asses to the gym, and to change the way they eat, and that would make a huge positive difference for them.
Then again though, I am from Los Angeles. Everyone here is very looks orientated. Looking good and talking well will get you places in this city. So it is part of my mentality to always strive for the best of those worlds.
Please understand I wasn't trying to insult, scapegoat or call obese people lazy.
I was simply pointing out that obesity IS linked to health issues, statistically speaking. Of course there are exceptions, and I'm very happy for you if you are one of them! I understand this is a personal and sensitive issue for you and I totally respect that.
I also agree BMI is not an ideal measure to judge one's health. For example, most professional football players (i'm in Australia, so I mean rugby union, rubgy league or Australian rules football) have BMI's that technically mean they are obese! This is because BMI is simply a weight/height ratio, hence top athletes who are super-fit but quite heavy due to high muscle mass are considered obese!
A far better indicator of health is your body fat percentage. There are normal ranges of these (different for men and women, women being higher) and as long as you are within these ranges or not too far out of them, I wouldn't worry about your BMI at all. TO put it another way: it's better to watch your belt size than the scales.
Namaste
I had my body fat measured at the gym recently and was told, my a very surprised-looking gym instructor, that although my overall body fat was around 50%, my level of visceral fat - the stuff around your organs - was within the 'low risk' range of 1-12. The scale used a measurement of 1-59 and my reading was 8. When I take this into consideration alongside my 117/75 (average) blood pressure and 5.5mmol/L (average) post-meal blood glucose level, and the fact that I can walk 3 miles without stopping and keep up with two active children, the fact that I weigh 210lb somehow seems rather insignificant.
Some people are overweight due to factors beyond their control, and the medical system isn't good at bothering to try to figure out root causes. Genetics and hormone imbalance are two common causes, and nothing can be done about the former. Look at Oprah: she said when she was a teen, her father or uncle said she was going to be "big". Her mother was "big", so she was going to be big. Look how hard she's worked to defy what seems to be her genetic heritage. But she's gorgeous and wonderful no matter what her size, not that her size is anyone's business.
Our society hasn't learned yet to look past appearances and appreciate people's character.
P.S. Take a vacation to Greece. It'll be a refreshing experience. You might get hooked! ^_^
as far as the relationship between obesity and disease goes:
healthy body weight, falls within a pretty large range and the total weight of the body (and the bmi scale), are for the most part useless... what matters is the amount of body FAT. simple example is a 300lb obese man and a 300lb bodybuilder. same weight, different distribution of tissues. having excess body fat beyond a certain point does increase your risk of various disease... partly because fat is a hormonally active tissue and changes the balance of certain key elements in the body. most of the damage, imo, comes from 1) higher intake of unhealthy foods which are detrimental for other reasons 2)increased metabolic biproducts are cellular metabolism.
that being said... it is possible to have a higher than standard bodyweight and be perfectly healthy, but nearly impossible to have a higher than standard amount of bodyfat and not be initiating disease development.
the idea that anything other than caloric intake, baring illness, influences body weight is simply a misunderstanding. for the most part the calories in-calories out rule is correct. bodyfat storage, in healthy people, is almost solely related to eating more calories than your body is using. bodyfat is a storage mechanism for energy and could not be created without excess energy.
what makes certain people appear to be able to eat more or less is: 1) different capacity for digestion... not everything you put in your stomach is digested and metabolized. some people may digest nearly everything, some people may digest not so much. so skinny person A may consume 1000kcal and digest 500 while overweight person b may consume 1000kcal and digest 900. 2) hunger-satiety mechanisms in the brain... the signalling for hunger and fullness between the brain and the stomach can vary GREATLY in people. the skinny person who you see eat huge meals likely has reduce food intake that day, or even for a number of days after.
there are many other things that play into this, activity, basal metabolic rate, genetics, etc etc etc... i could write for days.
I'll tell you what doesn't make sense. To just save whatever it costs, maybe a few 100 bucks on a test, insurance ends up paying out a lot more money monthly for meds for people to manage their symptoms. Lots of money on very expensive migraine meds, for example (migraines can be associated with thyroid disease). I mean: what does insurance gain from refusing to diagnose a condition, and as a result, having those patients become disabled and require expensive monthly meds? It makes no sense.
Not all patients respond to synthroid or armour thyroid. I found a remedy from Sweden over the internet that finally did the trick. Other patients have told me they've found other alternative remedies that worked for them. Every body is different; the one-size-fits-all remedies don't fit all. But it's interesting to hear about your experience, Jeffrey.
Me, trying to find a doc to treat me for thyroid: :banghead: :banghead:
OK, enuff about me and thyroid. PM me if you want to discuss this further.
As cynical as I am about the health care industry, I certainly hope insurance dweebs are not telling physicians to out and out lie to patients. That's completely illegal and unethical. Not saying that insurance companies are either ethical nor above board legally (far from it), but 99.999% of physicians are. Contrary to popular belief, physicians are not always at the mercy of the insurance companies, especially when it comes to tests as cheap and easy as thyroid function testing. Those are simple lab tests that even the remotest lab can handle.
But Mts., AFAIK, the thyroid test that tests for antibodies is significantly more expensive than the standard one that checks TSH, T4, T3, etc. I had to pay out of pocket for it once, and it was really steep.
@vixthenomad
It sounds like you are happy, healthy, and have a loving family. I wish you a long and happy life.
Namaste
There is zero evidence that synthyroid is being over-prescribed.
this might be a little OT, but since people have been talking a lot about health, i recently downloaded a free app for my android phone called "My Fitness Pal" that i will definitely recommend to others. i was curious about whether or not i was getting enough protein and fiber in my diet, and this app allows you to add the food you eat in a day and it will compute your intake of major nutrients (calories, carbs, fats, proteins, vitamins, etc) and show you how much you SHOULD be eating and how close you are to your recommended daily amount. it's pretty neat and i've found out that i eat more than enough protein, but i should increase my intake of potassium and calcium. it also seems very geared towards tracking calories and letting you know how many more you can eat to reach your weight goal, although i don't use it for that and my current set up is just to "maintain"
I wonder if it is because people somehow imagine that if it's a condition of the mind, a person can just snap themselves out of it?
I also have friends with crohns disease, who struggle to keep up their weight. Cystic fibrosis, rheumatoid arthritis and many other chronic conditions also cause difficulties with people being underweight. A lady I know with severe Crohns, who has to be tube-fed to keep her weight up, has suffered threats of violence for being so skinny! It's crazy!
I know that very overweight people also get prejudice and bigotry. I suppose I ought to be pleased to be 'just' overweight, like about 70% of the rest of the British population.
What is it all about? I just don't understand it.
As for healthy weight, my sister's doctors have said that she needs to have a BMI over 17. That's on the low end of normal, but as she is anorexic, it's important for her to be skinny, but healthy-skinny rather than underweight. I was amazed to discover that the doctors don't worry too much as long as a person has a BMI over 14 - below that, your body starts to struggle (not that BMI of 14-17 is healthy - but that was when my sister was ill).
My daughter also suffered from infantile anorexia, and failure-to-thrive, as a toddler, and through that experience and my sister, I've realised that people can be really, really skinny and still healthy. Maybe it's because so many of us are overweight that we no longer know what a healthy but skinny person looks like? Or maybe the mean people are just jealous?
@Ada_B, I'm under the impression that in Britain, it's kind of the norm to be very scornful and unkind to large people? We have a bit of that in the US, but the way Fergie was openly ridiculed (for looking "normal" in my opinion) is not something we see too often here outside of primary schools. Anyway, it doesn't matter... I'm just curious to a fault.
@prettyhowtown - I know the question was addressed to @Ada_B but I wanted to put in my two British penceworth too.
so anyways, when a woman says an off comment to me (which doesn't happen as often now that i don't work in retail where people constantly have weight and size on the mind), i try to understand that it is simply a rehashing of the pain she has felt from her life. for my ex, it was her father who would tell her she was overweight and put that idea in her head. who knows what kind of mental injuries other people have accrued throughout their lives. at the moment when they spew that hatred, it really isn't ABOUT ME, but it can be hard to remember that sometimes. i think it's the same for those with eating disorders. these women are just as much victims of the same cycle, but i think a lot of women almost see them as contributors to the thin=beautiful belief permeating society. like, because they bought into it, in essence, they become the enemy. it's sad, but people always make excuses to see enemies in people that they should be hugging instead. people act like this towards sex workers a lot as well.
i wish i had an answer for this as well, but when hatred stems from something like self-loathing, it's really hard to effect. a great example of this is how many vehemently anti-gay people tend to actually be gay themselves. sometimes you just have to think to yourself, "who are you trying to convince?" i often think this for women who bash skinny girls. i believe shakespeare said, "the lady doth protest too much."
But it was the British press who ridiculed Fergie, and they are a completely different kettle of fish (rather nasty kettle, at that). Real people don't talk like tabloid newspapers, thankfully. Our media are going through a crisis at the moment and it's becoming apparent just how horrible they are - and not before time IMHO. However, as they say themselves, its the British public who buy this nastiness. If we didn't buy it, they wouldn't print it. So we all have some responsibility.
RE: whatever size Monroe is rumored to have worn--we should bear in mind that the fashion industry has shifted the sizes of women's clothing several times since Marilyn's time. What was a 16 then is probably a 12 now. This is how we got to the absurd point that there is such a thing as a size 2, and even a size 0.
@Ada_B i live in detroit, did you mean to say that you live in brighton?