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Saint or Insane!
zen_world
Veteran
UG Krishnamurti:
Fear is the very thing that you do not want to be free from. If the fear comes to an end, you will drop dead physically. Clinical death will take place.
That messy thing called 'mind' has created many destructive things. By far the most destructive of them all is God.
When you are no longer caught up in the dichotomy of right and wrong or good and bad, you can never do anything wrong. As long as you are caught up in this duality, the danger is that you will always do wrong.
I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century B.C. Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people.
A 'moral man' is a frightened man- chicken hearted man; that is why he practices morality and sits in judgement over others.
The body is not interested in anything you are interested in. And that is the battle that is going on all the time.
Consciousness is so pure that whatever you are doing in the direction of purifying that consciousness is adding impurity to it. There is no sadhana necessary, no purification methods necessary for this kind of a thing to happen - no preparation of any kind.
A messiah is the one who leaves a mess behind him in this world
The human organism is not interested in your wonderful religious ideas--peace, bliss, beatitude or any such thing. Its only interest is survival. What society has placed before us as the goal to reach and attain is the enemy of this living organism.
You are more useful to the Nature dead than alive.
Religions have promised roses but you end up with only thorns.
Meditation itself is evil. That is why you get evil thoughts when you start meditating.
Atmospheric pollution is most harmless when compared to the spiritual and religious pollution that have plagued the world.
The mystique of enlightenment is based upon the idea of transforming yourself. I maintain that there is nothing to change or transform.
What I am trying to say is that you must discover something for yourself. But do not be misled into thinking that what you find will be of use to society, that it can be used to change the world. You are finished with society, that is all.
Why should life have any meaning? Why should there be any purpose to living? Living itself is all that is there. Your search for spiritual meaning has made a problem out of living.
A murderer, a con man, or a rapist has as much chance if not a better chance than all the holymen and spiritual aspirants put together.
Just let me warn you that if what you are aiming at--Moksha--really happens, you will die. There will be a physical death, because there has to be a physical death to be in that state.
Spirituality is the invention of the mind, and the mind is a myth.
Your highly praised inventiveness springs from your thinking, which is essentially a protective mechanism. The mind has invented both religion and dynamite to protect what it regards as its best interests.
My interest is not to knock off what others have said [that is too easy], but to knock off what I am saying. More precisely, I am trying to stop what you are making out of what I am saying.
You have to be saved from the very idea that you have to be saved. You must be saved from the saviors, redeemed from the redeemers.
I am not recommending anything; doing or not doing leads to the same end: misery. So doing nothing is no different from doing something.
Until you have the courage to blast me, all that I am saying, and all gurus, you will remain a cultist with photographs, rituals, birthday celebrations and the like.
The more you know about yourself the more impossible it becomes to be humble and sensitive. How can there be humility as long as you know something?
Nature is busy creating absolutely unique individuals, where as culture has invented a single mold to which all must conform. It is grotesque.
Humility is an art that one practices. There is no such thing as humility. As long as you know,there is no humility. The known and humility cannot coexist
Society, which has created all these sociopaths, has invented morality to protect itself from them. Society has created the 'saints' and 'sinners'. I don't accept them as such.
Nature does not seem to use anything as a model. When once it has perfected a unique individual, that individual is thrown off the evolutionary process and is of no further interest to nature.
By using the models of Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna we have destroyed the possibility of nature throwing up unique individuals
You have to brush everything aside to find out. Your problem is not how to get something from somebody, but how to reject everything that is offered by anybody.
http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/ug/quotes_and_photos/album06/index.html
Fear is the very thing that you do not want to be free from. If the fear comes to an end, you will drop dead physically. Clinical death will take place.
That messy thing called 'mind' has created many destructive things. By far the most destructive of them all is God.
When you are no longer caught up in the dichotomy of right and wrong or good and bad, you can never do anything wrong. As long as you are caught up in this duality, the danger is that you will always do wrong.
I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century B.C. Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people.
A 'moral man' is a frightened man- chicken hearted man; that is why he practices morality and sits in judgement over others.
The body is not interested in anything you are interested in. And that is the battle that is going on all the time.
Consciousness is so pure that whatever you are doing in the direction of purifying that consciousness is adding impurity to it. There is no sadhana necessary, no purification methods necessary for this kind of a thing to happen - no preparation of any kind.
A messiah is the one who leaves a mess behind him in this world
The human organism is not interested in your wonderful religious ideas--peace, bliss, beatitude or any such thing. Its only interest is survival. What society has placed before us as the goal to reach and attain is the enemy of this living organism.
You are more useful to the Nature dead than alive.
Religions have promised roses but you end up with only thorns.
Meditation itself is evil. That is why you get evil thoughts when you start meditating.
Atmospheric pollution is most harmless when compared to the spiritual and religious pollution that have plagued the world.
The mystique of enlightenment is based upon the idea of transforming yourself. I maintain that there is nothing to change or transform.
What I am trying to say is that you must discover something for yourself. But do not be misled into thinking that what you find will be of use to society, that it can be used to change the world. You are finished with society, that is all.
Why should life have any meaning? Why should there be any purpose to living? Living itself is all that is there. Your search for spiritual meaning has made a problem out of living.
A murderer, a con man, or a rapist has as much chance if not a better chance than all the holymen and spiritual aspirants put together.
Just let me warn you that if what you are aiming at--Moksha--really happens, you will die. There will be a physical death, because there has to be a physical death to be in that state.
Spirituality is the invention of the mind, and the mind is a myth.
Your highly praised inventiveness springs from your thinking, which is essentially a protective mechanism. The mind has invented both religion and dynamite to protect what it regards as its best interests.
My interest is not to knock off what others have said [that is too easy], but to knock off what I am saying. More precisely, I am trying to stop what you are making out of what I am saying.
You have to be saved from the very idea that you have to be saved. You must be saved from the saviors, redeemed from the redeemers.
I am not recommending anything; doing or not doing leads to the same end: misery. So doing nothing is no different from doing something.
Until you have the courage to blast me, all that I am saying, and all gurus, you will remain a cultist with photographs, rituals, birthday celebrations and the like.
The more you know about yourself the more impossible it becomes to be humble and sensitive. How can there be humility as long as you know something?
Nature is busy creating absolutely unique individuals, where as culture has invented a single mold to which all must conform. It is grotesque.
Humility is an art that one practices. There is no such thing as humility. As long as you know,there is no humility. The known and humility cannot coexist
Society, which has created all these sociopaths, has invented morality to protect itself from them. Society has created the 'saints' and 'sinners'. I don't accept them as such.
Nature does not seem to use anything as a model. When once it has perfected a unique individual, that individual is thrown off the evolutionary process and is of no further interest to nature.
By using the models of Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna we have destroyed the possibility of nature throwing up unique individuals
You have to brush everything aside to find out. Your problem is not how to get something from somebody, but how to reject everything that is offered by anybody.
http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/ug/quotes_and_photos/album06/index.html
0
Comments
Not holy or crazy. Hurting.
A couple of the potato chips I enjoyed were "A messiah is the one who leaves a mess behind him in this world" and "My interest is not to knock off what others have said [that is too easy], but to knock off what I am saying. More precisely, I am trying to stop what you are making out of what I am saying."
I have a hunch, but don't know, that K was a serious man talking to not-terribly-serious people.
Nothing new. No, it's neither insanity nor enlightened. Just speaking in imponderable riddles like every Guru out there who knows how to talk the talk.
The bestowing of the title "insane" is likewise a political act, intended to motivate individuals to disregard, disdain, and/or devalue the given individual designated "insane."
If you seek truth, look inward to observe what resonates.
If you seek to understand another's judgment, consider the experience, training, motivation, and intention of said individual.
Fear is the very thing that you do not want to be free from. If the fear comes to an end, you will drop dead physically. Clinical death will take place.
I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century B.C. Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people.
A 'moral man' is a frightened man- chicken hearted man; that is why he practices morality and sits in judgement over others.
Meditation itself is evil. That is why you get evil thoughts when you start meditating.
I am not recommending anything; doing or not doing leads to the same end: misery. So doing nothing is no different from doing something.
By using the models of Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna we have destroyed the possibility of nature throwing up unique individuals
His quotes above echo what the first Krishnamurti kept saying, but even wilder. Yes, these gurus are fascinating to listen to. Why do you think they attract so many followers? But they're not actually teaching you anything. Their preaching boils down to telling you how special enlightenment is and how messed up we are, but this guru doesn't have a clue how to eliminate your suffering. They do wave their hands around and say, "You're already there! You just don't know it yet!" So why am I still suffering? How do I gain this knowledge? "There's nothing to learn!" they exclaim and continue telling you about their special understanding of reality.
It is sort of like Buddhism, stripped down to a set of catchphrases and devoid of purpose. It's not the Dharma, although it uses enough of the same language to attract our attention. The Buddha didn't teach enlightenment. He taught a method by which we can all be awakened. Buddhism is a classroom full of students eagerly striving to learn, and a teacher saying "Here's what you do..." This above is as useful as a handful of fortune cookies.
One said
"Setting a good example to Children will take all the fun out of middle age"
The other was:
"It wasn't chicken"....
rather like the above, glean what resonates.
And granted, of everything there, for me, two words stand out.
Invented something.
LOL!
You all need to put your beliefs and emotions aside and simply look at what he is saying. Do you see anything wrong? If so please debunk his statements with logic.
I personally do not see anything false in his statements. Except the one with "meditation is evil". The rest of his arguments are very liberating.
I never felt more free in my life after listening to him...
He definitely unwired some of my circuts.
On the other hand, I do feel like his arguments are really at the very advance level. The level where you must drop all religions and saints i.e. Buddha...However to get there, people need teachers I guess, at least some of you do! I don't feel like I am comfortable with a teacher anymore...I am better off on my own. So his ideas resonated with me right away, like taking a refreshing cold shower..
And I have no idea where you guys getting the "nihilism" from his statements. I don't see nihilism in his quotes or the speeches that he gave.
for there is no one who can teach you what is within you...
and you will find that this entire world and everything and everyone in it will become your teachers who will help present, study, review, and eventually test you on all of your lessons.
Happy practice!
with metta
Aura
Zen_world, we face several problems in discussing a random list of quotes. First, any statement should be seen in context before making a final decision on what the person means. So we're not being fair to this man by just taking one chunk of a larger work. Second, what a guru says is designed to thumb its nose at logic. "That doesn't make sense! He's babbling!" "Well, it's enlightened babble, so it has a deeper meaning."
But let's take the very first statement, a rather straightforward claim that "Fear is the very thing that you do not want to be free from. If the fear comes to an end, you will drop dead physically. Clinical death will take place."
Nonsense. Fear is an emotion, one of the skandhas that make up the mind. It arises when triggered by our perception of a threat, and otherwise returns to the nothing from which it came. Same with anger and happiness and the whole range of emotions. Emotions are as empty as thoughts. You feel no threat, either from what our perceptions or thoughts are telling us, and you are free from fear. That happens constantly, from a contented baby to an old man who has made peace with the world. Funny how the world is not filled with smiling corpses.
But since it's guru talk, this simple objection can be dismissed as I just don't comprehend his great enlightened thinking. That is the danger of assigning wisdom to anybody's rambling, including my own. Don't surrender the right to disagree or trust your own judgement over anyone, no matter what their claims or titles.
This world you live in is based on rules. Social rules and physical rules (i.e. physical laws). The fear settle down in this solid reality. What is solidness anyways? There is nothing solid in the solid object, they are all rules. Why? It works on mechanics...Mechanical operation is based on rules. How these rules are created? Fear created it. It created thoughts, solidness, and eventually samsara.
Would Buddha have been able to achieve "enlightenment", if he had not overcome that primitive fear of dying?
"Fear is the very thing that you do not want to be free from...." said your guru -- and yet, that fear stands between you and what I assume is your goal of practicing Buddhism.
Although, given you are a follower of zen, this typical step may *seem* to be conquered already....
Anyway, @Cinorjer is making some very good points!
Considering *yourself* to be more "advanced" seems to be a crutch kind of notion and judgmental.
If one needs to have an elevated understanding of Buddhism to discuss matters with you, why are you bothering to post on a forum for New Buddhist - just to knock people if they don't follow your train of thought??