Is there meaning in evil and suffering?

Jason

Is there meaning in evil and suffering?

bodhimaṇḍa

It's form that became formless. Hence, form equal formless in Heart Sutra
http://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2010/11/17/17/20101117_AFGHAN_BUDDHAS.large.prod_affiliate.91.jpg

DaltheJigsaw

Good question! Maybe?

Zayl

Without the darkness, there cannot be light. And vice-versa. I say it gives us perspective. After all, there can be no middle way if there are not two extremes, yes?

DaltheJigsaw

Without the darkness, there cannot be light. And vice-versa. I say it gives us perspective. After all, there can be no middle way if there are not two extremes, yes?

Great points!

Theswingisyellow

No.

vinlyn

Without the darkness, there cannot be light. And vice-versa. I say it gives us perspective. After all, there can be no middle way if there are not two extremes, yes?

I think that's a tad bit cliche and not really very helpful.

But I too have to put things in perspective. I often use cliches. And I'm not always helfpul.

Theswingisyellow

We only have what is in front of us.
Ultimately how we relate to it is what matters.
If we see evil how do we respond? What is our correct action toward it?
If we see goodness how do we respond? What is our correct action toward to it?
In some Buddhist thinking there is the idea that all things are relative, so to speak, that we make good or evil.
I don't agree.
I would suggest that all things are equal in that there is no-self to be found with in, but that is where the equality ends.
Someone getting raped is evil.
Someone showing compassion or care to his fellow man is good.
These examples are not equal- one is abhorrent the other shows the best side of us.
So how do we respond to someone getting raped?
How do we respond to acts of compassion?
Ultimately there is no meaning in evil or suffering only how we respond.

A quote I like from Russian novelist Vasily Grossman in his book "Life and Fate"-
" I have seen that it is not man who is impotent in the struggle against evil, but the power of evil that is impotent in the struggle against man. The powerlessness of kindness, of senseless kindness, is the secret of its immortality. It can never be conquered. The more stupid, the more senseless, the more helpless it may seem, the vaster it is. Evil is impotent before it. The prophets, religious teachers, reformers, social and political leaders are impotent before it. This dumb, blind love is man's meaning.
Human history is not a battle of good struggling to overcome evil. It is a battle fought by a great evil struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness. But if what is human in human beings has not been destroyed even now, then evil will never conquer".

Bhagavan

When there is direct intentional harmful action/effect/ideology causing fear, imprisoning, unhappiness, unloving, injury or death to living being is evil. This evilness arises suffering that may not neccessarily taking immediate effect, inexhaustive.

SpinyNorman2

Is there meaning in evil and suffering?

No.

Spiny

misecmisc1

Is there meaning in evil and suffering?

Nice article @jason.

As per my understanding - definitely there is meaning in evil and suffering. If no evil is there, then how will good be defined if there is no evil to compare with. If no suffering is there, then how cessation of suffering will come to picture and then how Nirvana will come to picture. Evil or good - everything(except Nirvana) is relative and devoid of inherent existence. But suffering is necessary, otherwise when pleasure will be available throughout the life and no suffering is there, then why will the need to end the suffering arise as there will be no suffering and how will one turn to end all sufferings and attain Nirvana. But since all phenomena are impermanent, suffering and not-self, so are unworthy of attachment, so if due to ignorance without knowing reality, the cycle of Samsara will continue and will eventually lead to only pain and suffering.

PrairieGhost

I like to think that this is the best possible world, and that we could not begin knowing, because a known thing has to be learned. And also that these words, and all words about the matter, are just like the colours of leaves which peel off each season.

Iktomi

The purpose of religion is to give meaning to suffering. That's it, in a nutshell.

PrairieGhost

I thought the purpose of religion was to give a shell for nuts like me... but cunningly, Buddhism gives one a shell that self destructs.

PrairieGhost

Sorry, that was off topic.

Ok, maybe... suffering is a facet of experience, which when seen through, ends suffering. It is only a lack of courage to face suffering that makes it seem real. Meditation leaves one with no choice but to engage with every sensation. Non avoidance of sensation, and non craving for sensation transforms suffering/aversion into unlimited bliss.

However there is no self existing mechanism by which this occurs, and it can therefore be pointed at in various ways.

person

We only have what is in front of us.
Ultimately how we relate to it is what matters.
If we see evil how do we respond? What is our correct action toward it?
If we see goodness how do we respond? What is our correct action toward to it?
In some Buddhist thinking there is the idea that all things are relative, so to speak, that we make good or evil.
I don't agree.
I would suggest that all things are equal in that there is no-self to be found with in, but that is where the equality ends.
Someone getting raped is evil.
Someone showing compassion or care to his fellow man is good.
These examples are not equal- one is abhorrent the other shows the best side of us.
So how do we respond to someone getting raped?
How do we respond to acts of compassion?
Ultimately there is no meaning in evil or suffering only how we respond.

A quote I like from Russian novelist Vasily Grossman in his book "Life and Fate"-
" I have seen that it is not man who is impotent in the struggle against evil, but the power of evil that is impotent in the struggle against man. The powerlessness of kindness, of senseless kindness, is the secret of its immortality. It can never be conquered. The more stupid, the more senseless, the more helpless it may seem, the vaster it is. Evil is impotent before it. The prophets, religious teachers, reformers, social and political leaders are impotent before it. This dumb, blind love is man's meaning.
Human history is not a battle of good struggling to overcome evil. It is a battle fought by a great evil struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness. But if what is human in human beings has not been destroyed even now, then evil will never conquer".

I would say that relative doesn't mean equal. I think of good as being better than something else and evil as being worse than something else. So someone getting raped is evil because it is worse than someone not getting raped. Showing compassion is good because its better than not showing compassion.

Further better or worse should be seen in the context that better means something that leads to happiness and worse means something that leads to pain.

genkaku

The purpose of religion is to give meaning to suffering. That's it, in a nutshell.

God save us from religion!

compassionate_warrior

Is there meaning in light? Nothing has any meaning except what we assign to it. Finding meaning in suffering and its opposite can be helpful for some people.

Iktomi

genkaku on 25 Feb 2012 ~ 12:39pm said:

The purpose of religion is to give meaning to suffering. That's it, in a nutshell.

God save us from religion!

No need to stay from the neighborhood, noble truth uno primero: there is suffering!

SpinyNorman2

The purpose of religion is to give meaning to suffering. That's it, in a nutshell.

I agree a lot of religious belief is about coping with suffering.

Spiny

KnightofBuddha

No, in most suffering there is absolutely no purpose. I love the quote above by Vasilly Grossman. Excellent, dark, but true.

Under the Maoist regime, upwards of 60 millions souls lost their lives through labor camps and forced starvation. In other words, more lives were lost in peacetime in China than in all of World War II. There is no meaning or purpose behind such barbarity.

joyous

Hi people I am new here on this forum

Okay so here's my first comment...

Suffering is a state of mind I think. It is also determined but one's karma that one sees and feels suffering. Being born in samsara - this planet - the desire realm - this in it itself is suffering. Everything in this realm has the potential to give pleasure or pain and depends on how you perceive it isn't it?

Evil? There is only one evil and the most evil of all is one's delusions and ego. We are our own evil...our own pain and our own suffering.

But Buddha taught us that all this can be turned around and we can switch it around - how? Through realisation and how do we come to this realisation?? Through applying the Dharma that tells us constantly about thinking of others and puting others first before oneself. When you do that everything else seems to fade away... x

Ficus_religiosa

I would say there is no meaning in evil or suffering in itself. Well, I do not even "believe" in evil, but I know suffering. We can put meaning into it if we want, but to do that we have to realize it's suffering first. The best way to go around that is stop our judgment, hence stop suffering. To me that is a key point in buddhism - you experience suffering because you haven't changed your mind in a way to accept things as they are. To accept a situation which brings suffering, you can make up a meaning. I find the best meaning to be, that you can learn acceptance from the situation, thus bringing yourself one step closer to end suffering - nibbana. To do so is only second-best though, as the best thing is to cope ahead by practicing

JRFibonacci

In regard to the label evil, it is clear that different people can put different labels on the same pattern of activity. The idea that there is a universal morality seems to me to misunderstand not only the nature of mores and morals, but of language and labels.

Here are three Christian scriptures on the subject, then a much older scripture from India:

"For I know and I am persuaded by THE LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua that there is nothing that is defiled in his presence. But to the one who regards anything impure, it is impure to him alone." Romans 14:14 Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

“To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and without faith, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted [troubled, shameful, shaming].” Titus 1:15

Romans 14:20 "All things indeed are pure."


A more ancient saying:

“Good and evil of this world of duality are unreal,
are spoken of by words, and exist only in the mind.”
- Bhagavatam, XI, ch. XXII.


Here is a rather recent comment:

“…there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”

Shakespeare (spoken by the character Hamlet).

mindatrisk

I suppose, like anything, the meaning evil has is the meaning that we give it. I don't know if it has any inherent meaning or function, and if it did, whether or not we could know it. But regardless of that we all give it our own meaning, and so, I suppose, the only consideration is whether the meaning we give it is working for us, i.e. bringing us happiness, or working against us, i.e. bringing us suffering.

LostLight

There is NO meaning in suffering. However, wisdom can be taken from suffering, but it does NOT come directly from experiencing it. The Buddha himself said that there is nothing to gain from suffering (The not eating for days story), but we should make the best out of what does happen.

how

Is there meaning in evil & suffering?
One meaning and connection between these two are
"Evil" is the love of ignorance,
whereas
suffering is just the result of ignorance.

mindatrisk

There is NO meaning in suffering. However, wisdom can be taken from suffering, but it does NOT come directly from experiencing it. The Buddha himself said that there is nothing to gain from suffering (The not eating for days story), but we should make the best out of what does happen.

In all honesty, my first reaction to this was that it is very arrogant to make such absolute statements about such things... but then my second reaction was that it would be very arrogant of me to dismiss your assertions just because I personally do not feel such certainty.

So, what is it that makes you feel so sure that there is no meaning in suffering? Because I don't see a way - at present - that I could know this to be true. And I mean, actually know, not just trusting in a certain source, i.e. the Buddha. Have you experienced something, or had an insight which has given you such certainty around this?

LostLight

There is NO meaning in suffering. However, wisdom can be taken from suffering, but it does NOT come directly from experiencing it. The Buddha himself said that there is nothing to gain from suffering (The not eating for days story), but we should make the best out of what does happen.

In all honesty, my first reaction to this was that it is very arrogant to make such absolute statements about such things... but then my second reaction was that it would be very arrogant of me to dismiss your assertions just because I personally do not feel such certainty.

So, what is it that makes you feel so sure that there is no meaning in suffering? Because I don't see a way - at present - that I could know this to be true. And I mean, actually know, not just trusting in a certain source, i.e. the Buddha. Have you experienced something, or had an insight which has given you such certainty around this?

You are correct. I forgot the golden rule to label the statement as my thought and nothing more. Like most of the other responses though, the Buddha did say that suffering in itself is meaningless and should be avoided and ultimately destroyed. I believe what he said, but I also believe that because of suffering, people can be very kind (empathy). That is its only meaning it possesses I feel. I think people decide what to get out of suffering. A lesson without pain is meaningless some say, others say we don't need to get hurt to learn.
It can go both ways.

Ultimately, I think that we don't need suffering to learn; people can gain wisdom without pain. A person can watch a documentary on the dangers of mountain climbing, while a person can experience the dangers firsthand. They both learned the same lesson, but one experienced suffering as well.