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Tibetan Book of Living & Dying
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
Today we begin to discuss the book and would welcome contributions from anyone following it chapter by chapter.
be sure, if possible, to mention page and reference, because there are currently two editions (that I know of) being used: the first was published over ten years ago. The second version was an update, to mark the tenth anniversary of the original publication, so I'm not sure what of the content would have been revised and updated....
Here's to hoping that we have many varied contributions, an intelligent and animated discussion, and a constant and continuous maintained interest....
please:
Keep on topic:
Try to not leap ahead and discuss content others have not reached yet:
and above all, remember: we're not at school - It's not a duty, it's fun.
Enjoy the book, and share your perspective!
Thanks folks!
be sure, if possible, to mention page and reference, because there are currently two editions (that I know of) being used: the first was published over ten years ago. The second version was an update, to mark the tenth anniversary of the original publication, so I'm not sure what of the content would have been revised and updated....
Here's to hoping that we have many varied contributions, an intelligent and animated discussion, and a constant and continuous maintained interest....
please:
Keep on topic:
Try to not leap ahead and discuss content others have not reached yet:
and above all, remember: we're not at school - It's not a duty, it's fun.
Enjoy the book, and share your perspective!
Thanks folks!
0
Comments
And I love the quotation:
"People often make the mistake of being frivolous about death and think, 'Oh well, death happens to everybody. It's not a big deal, it's natural. I'll be fine.' That's a nice theory until one is dying."
(Chapter 1, 'Death in the Modern World, P's 7 & 8.)
I used to, first, be like many in the West who always assumed it happened to other people, but could never even bring myself to believe or accept that it will happen to me.
Then, I undewent a Roman Catholic education, and was led to believe that Dying was an awfully wonderful thing, as long as you believed in God and Heaven and fluffy clouds and beautiful angels with harps....(Oh, pleeeease!)
Finally, I picked up this book.
Understand that, at the time I began to read it, I absolutely remained uttely convinced it had been written entirely for me.... because it hit me between the eyes harder and more forcefully than any other 'Truth' had ever been confronted with....
And that every single time I pick it up even now, it teaches me something new... about Dying, and about myself.
I'm utterly phobic about needles - the syringe variety....
And I knew I'd need a general anaesthetic for an operation I was due to have, and I kept banging on about a sedative, to knock me out first, because the trauma of having to deal with a needle, just before a serious op. was not something I wanted to deal with....
And naturally, they forgot....
So I'm being wheeled down to theatre, wide awake and mortified about this needle, and I 'm in the pre-op room, and everyone is bustling around, preparing me for this surgery, and this guy comes and stands by the bed to tell me that I'm going to feel "a bit of a sharp pain in my hand, I'm afraid, but it is just the needle going in", and I'm rigid with fear, and my mouth is dry, and i'm tying to tell him something about being gentle or can I have some topical anaesthetic cream or something, and suddenly....
a voice in my head says,
"Relax. let it all go... you'll be out like a light in a few seconds, anyway, so why fight it? Release. Let go. Just allow yourself to just be taken under....."
And I later imagined that, come a speculative moment in future, I shall find myself in the same position. Only, I won't be coming back. It will be a one-way trip.
So that is how I know right now, I am facing it; the point of no personal, conscious return....
Ideally, that is how I would face my moment to "Relax".
Let's see where the discussion, your comments and input, and this book takes me now....
He connects a fear of old age and death, and a lack of belief in a life after this (chapter 1, p 8-10, revised ed.) to short term vision and planning, and recklessness with our lives, the lives of others, and the environment. He believes that it's essential for us to have a belief in an afterlife for us to start acting respectfully and with compassion.
If we don't realise that life will go on after we're dead, that our children and grandchildren will still be alive and have to deal with the mess we leave them, we may not care about how we act, how much destruction and pain we cause. It won't seem real, we won't care how we act because we don't believe there will be consequences or effects for ourselves... (Are we really that selfish?)
Perhaps nothing seems real to us because we're too caught up in our own stories and too far removed from life (and death) to realise that this is now, and this may be all we have, but after now is gone, the effects will still be here.
I think maybe our lives are too "abstract" for us to really be able to see that life and death are real.
We don't work to live, we work so that we will have money so that we can buy food from a store so we can live. There's no direct connection between us and what we need to survive any longer. We don't see the connections between life and death, living and dying, working and eating and living... We very rarely see birth, even more rarely death. Everything is compartmentalised and sterilised and happens somewhere else.
Life and death don't seem real.
The first thought that struck me on reading the first chapter was the sanitisation of death in the UK. When I first experienced the death of a friend over here in France I was slightly squeamish when, on appearing on the doorstep to offer our condolences, I was shown into the dead person's bedroom where he was laid out on the bed. I was invited to join the relatives who were sitting around him praying.
I sat quietly, holding his widow's hand and when I got up to go they said "Say Goodnight then". I went over to the corpse and kissed him on the forehead and said "Night night François, blessed be". It was a completion. I realised that I had never seen my own father dead, it had all been hushed up and I was not even told when the funeral would be, consequently for years afterwards I wasn't sure. Had we adopted the more healthy and less sanitised method I would have kissed my father goodnight for the last time and be absolutely sure that he was no longer in this world.
There is wisdom AND humour in this book and it is fantastic. Thanks to whoever suggested it.
Death is not genereally handled very well in the modern west. Most often (when a death is expected, at least) I've tried to keep dying patients and their relatives comfortable and provided for, while allowing them to deal with the real process themselves. Dying in hospital in particular is not the best, most rewarding environment.
On rare occassions I have seen extremes. From the lady in her 40's who absolutely denied the fact that her breast cancer had won until her very last breath. Although she'd had months to come to terms with it, she would not accept her death at all and left this world kicking and screaming with her husband, her 13 year old son and I trying our very best to calm her. A horrible experience for her and all involved. To the other extreme of complete acceptance - like the 50 year old man with leukaemia who planned his own celebratory, non-denominational funeral and quietly and comfortably left this world with his wife lying by his side.
These are only a couple of my experiences of expected deaths. I couldn't tell you how many deaths I have actually witnessed and been a carer at in my professional capacity. What I can tell you is that it never over the years got any easier and I wish had read this book whilst I was still nursing.
I'm looking forward to reading the rest of the book.
Sas
myself.. ya! learning lots..
when i bought the book and told a couple of people what
i was reading i felt i had to explain why i would pic ( a morbid book )
dont get me wrong i dont feel its morbid at all.. yet as a westerner
im sure expecially a friend of mine thought that.. that was one lesson
i learned.. its not a hush hush topic!
in fact my conversation with my teenagers will consist of death and dying
and my beliefs.. i want them to feel its natural to at least talk about.
i use to do corpes hair while they were in the coffin for their funeral.. and
i would bring in the kids and make it a natural thing.
i think the first thing that we need to change here in the west, or at least
help this next generation with is to TALK ABOUT DEATH AND DYING AND
NOT KEEP IT SUCH A HUSH HUSH / MORBID TOPIC.
i think that is a good begining anyway.
I had some problems with the book. (I know, there's always one.) Because I think he over simplified how people think about death and how they treat the earth and others. There are plenty of ultra conservative Christians who do believe in an afterlife, however, continue to decimate the planet in the interest of "capitalism." So, belief in afterlife and conscious living do not always go hand in hand. And, often, atheists are secular humanists. And secular humanists have very strong beliefs about caring for other humans and the environment.
I liked the stories of him and his master and how gentle his master was with him when he was a child. And I do agree that we should be conscious as much as possible that our next breath could be our last.
Oh, I NEVER mind when somebody compliments me!
i do hear you also.. and im not sure i believe all as im reading.. ( as i have
gone alil further )
yet my point staying with the first chapter..
i keep on thinking to myself........................... NO ONE REALLY KNOWS what
happens after death..
i may go on and on later..lol
I would also have to agree with the posts in this thread about death in the Western world.
I'm squeamish around death and killing. I remember I went over to a co-workers house to drop off some software he needed one night - the night he was having a butcher come over to butcher a cow they had been raising.
Now... you vegans... don't get caught up in the slaughter - that's not the point of my story. He raises cattle to supplement his income and feed his family - their ... farm-like people.
Anyway, I watched them kill the cow. I watched them gut it - and that was about all I could watch.
Yet, I've been raised in a society where hamburgers and steak are the regular meal of the day. Yet, death and killing, just in animals, is so far removed from my day-to-day life, that's it's appalling.
We've become a society where loved ones die in the cold, sterile rooms of a hospital and then whisked away to be processed for death by someone that they didn't even know. We no longer take care of our dead, we hardly see death, we don't bury our loved ones - all of our rights of passage have become dead as a society.
Maybe that's why death in the West has become so difficult for us. I know it has for me.
So, I've got something new to learn about...
-bf
How many people have I known that got a job, then got a nicer car, so they had to keep working to pay for the car, which was there to get them to work, so they etc etc.
The saddest case I knew came to mind ... a lady I worked with in the Yorkshire Post who had put off having children. She and her husband had drawn up a list of things they wanted to have if she was going to give up work to have kids - a new freezer, a decent washing machine, a tumble dryer ... all good practical things. But by the time they got one thing another had been added to the list so she kept on working, just for a while longer, just til they could buy .... and eventually it was too late, she went into early menopause and they still didn't have children. She won Secretary of the Year two years running but it was a hollow victory.
"Don't bother him, there's no need," he smiled. "With the master, there's no such thing as distance."
In my work with people dying of HIV/AIDS, I had noticed that the appearance of the coffin in church or chapel caused some discomfort. The body had disappeared some days before, into the hands of the undertaker, and only a box re-appeared. We avoided that - and by the time we carried her body into the church, the lid had candle-wax and a couple of rings from wet glasses on it! She would have approved, I think.
Yes I was very interested in the info on active laziness. I had been thinking lately how many inane, meaningless activities we occupy ourselves with in order to avoid thinking about our own mortality.
Wow Simon! I am so encouraged to learn about people like yourself with such a healthy attitude about death, especially the death of one so very close to you.
I think today was the official start date...
So here it goes....
I have read quite a bit into the book so far, but I will keep my comments to the first chapter (except for one which is in chapter 2).
Chapter one has two stories of Sogyul Rinpoche's experiences wih death. Although he was young and just learning, these experiences proved to be enlightening to him. The deaths he was witness to were...I don't like to say beautiful....but..peaceful, I guess. (I'm afraid I cannot be more clear on that at the moment).
Since reading the chapter 1 a few weeks ago, I have attended an unfortunate and untimely death of a 17 year old young man. At the age of 15, James was diagnosed with Leukemia. His first words upon hearing this news (as a 15 year old boy!) were, "There will be no tears inthis room".
For a year he battled and won. About 7 months ago, the leukemia returned. After a bone marrow transplant from his sister, the procedure failed. James fought with courage and was always upbeat...never wanting his family to be upset.
In chapter 2 (and this is only part of one small paragraph so I am not 'spilling any beans here) Sogyul Rinpoche stated that "Tibetan Buddhists believe that illnesses like cancer can be a warning, to remind us that we have been neglecting deep aspects of our being, such as our spiritual needs..." (pg. 31)
I wonder to whom this 'lesson' is meant: to him? his family?
I am having a very difficult time grasping this idea. I am uncomfrotable with it...it seems like a person is given a 'punishment' for either themselves or their families to understand that they are not living up to their spirituality...sounds almost hardcore Christian....
Am I missing something??????
I agree, Simon. We have lost our interaction with our dead. It's sad that a caretaker spends more time with our loved ones at their passing than family members do.
I think your story of your wife is very touching.
I don't know how I'll be around death - because I've had very few loved ones die - but I hope it will be a chance for the celebration of the time I was able to know them.
-bf
I think perhaps the comment about cancer and something being wrong spiritually was more along the lines of something like this: recently, a neighbor died of throat cancer. When he became ill, a friend commented that the throat chakra is the grief center. And we discussed how, when my neighbor was young, he had found his father dead from suicide. So the comparison was that withholding grief in the throat could have caused throat cancer. But, I don't think this person meant that my neighbor was being punished for anything. It was just more of a commentary on how the whole body, mind, emotions, are connected more than we realize.
Some years ago, I began to notice how many of the leaders of the "human growth" movement died of cancer. Perhaps too much emphasis on growth?
different parts of the body, ex. of the throat and the grief as someone
wrote a post about..
incase anyone was interested i found this author
to be quite right on in the mind body connections.
another example is people with digestive problems diseased or just
out of whack means.. our dealings with our thoughts.. confusion and
unable to digest what we are facing in life.
i will leave it there.. if anyone is interested
I have spent 5 min's thinking what I could possibly say to you. I am still unsure that I can convey how much I respect you for sharing your very personal experience with us.
We are indeed lucky to have you on this site.
HH
I'm glad you're back and posting, HH. We need more from the 'hard' left here. Keeps us honest!
I am not sure I fit the hard left label. I was never a member of Militant and I always hated the mind control taticals of the SWP. I am just old school.
How about yourself, I know you have talked about Respect . Where do you sit politically?
I had you down as Green Party.... or CP of GB.
PURELY SPECULATING.
Interesting how the Cancer's "purpose" is to grow out of control, When the Human Growth Hormone is used, I wonder if we introduce the same possible problem to our bodies, the potential for growing out of control??
regards,
Xray
Huge head. Huge eyebrow ridges. Hands and feet start growing.
I'M NOT AN ANIMAL!!!!
-bf
must get me some of dat...
Xray
Not the other kind...
-bf
chapter 2 ?
Go for it!
-bf
I liked the discussion that the only certainty in life is death. This is really ironic. Especially because we squander most of our life trying to pretend we won't die. Every time we make plans for the future and avoid the present we are pretending to be immortal.
On page 16 the discussion of why we fear death seems very accurate to me. The end of our identity is our biggest fear. And the thought of this "me" I have made dissolving after all the time and effort I have put into it, is scary.
The quote by Change Tzu on page 17 was very poignant. "He lives for what is always out of reach! His thirst for survival in the future makes him incapable of living in the present." The irony of that is so striking to me. Our very desire to assure ourselves that we are immortal by always planning for tomorrow is the very reason we miss what precious little life we have right here, right now.
I believe the best way to live and virtuous and beneficial life is to be aware at every moment that you could die. Everyone has heard the quotes about dying people's last words. It is said that none has ever said "I wish I spent more time at the mall." Or "I wish I had spent more time at work." Of course, except for you ZM, you will be wishing for more time at work.
Thank you for your compassion!
Chapter two was a great discussion on how imporatnt it is to really face death and to think about it, rather than just pretending it won't happen. I also liked how the author pointed out that we really should not be so afraid of death.
I meant to bring my book with me today so I could post a few quotes from it, but I forgot.
Is that your baby on your avatar! Cute, cheeky blonde just like we have in my family!
There is a paragragh on page 88.
Lets us get back to he point about concrete evidence. Just because we have never heard of T
But, it doesn't hurt to take the time to learn the teachings and thought processes of a wonderful teacher.
-bf
Shit, that did not sound very Socialist did it.
HH
-bf