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I understand the warning part....
but with young children, be it 15 years of age or infants with cancer. Is it a build up from past lives then???
I guess I have difficulty with the thought that young children are suffering because they are not spiritually on path.....
I understand the warning part....
but with young children, be it 15 years of age or infants with cancer. Is it a build up from past lives then???
I guess I have difficulty with the thought that young children are suffering because they are not spiritually on path.....
I have a hard time believing that, too, Sharpiegirl.
I think illness at an early age could be karma from a past life or lives coming to fruition. It's not a judgment on the young person and it could serve to bring them closer to a spiritual path. So I think we can look at it as the results of past karma being burned up and also a current opportunity which are both positive ways to look at it.
What do you think, Sharpiegirl? Does it still leave a bad taste in your mouth? I find the suffering of children to be one of the hardest things to understand and I can't even imagine what it's like for you, teaching first grade.
Parts of this book make me uncomfortable but I can't put my finger on it other than my desire to learn more about how to die well before I...well...die. LOL! Since I could die at any moment this book makes me a little edgy. LOL! I don't want to waste my death when he says it could be one of the most important opportunities I'll have in my life.
I think it can be helpful to bear in mind that Karma is simply that things happen for a reason, not fate, punishment or the whim of a sadistic and capricious deity. We get colds because we are infected with cold virii, not because we did something wrong. And with cancer we get cancer because of the physical, mental and emotional conditions that together cause cancer. Suzuki Roshi died of cancer, Katagiri Roshi died of cancer, and it was certainly nothing to do with past lives, something they'd done wrong or that they'd got off the spiritual path.
At first it did disturb me, Brigid. But the more I read into the chapter and reread it, though about it, the more I (I hope) understand. Cancer is a horrible thing for anyone to go through. I watched my grandmother die from it. As crazy as it sounds, I have an easier time excepting this notion (of it being a warning), for an adult. As adults, we behave in certain ways that contribute to our own samsara. But children? Now that I accept rebirth, I can begin to understand and apply it to the younger generations.
So far that it the only comment he made that I have had a hrad time with. It certainly puts my own morality into perspective. However, I was/am always more worried about those that I love dying more than myself. Remember that dream I shared awhile back?
(I was dying but I thought of my family?) I suppose I am OK with the fact that I will die. As close to the future as today when I drive home!!! (Yikes!) But it is out of my control, so I choose not to dwell on it.
I think it can be helpful to bear in mind that Karma is simply that things happen for a reason, not fate, punishment or the whim of a sadistic and capricious deity. We get colds because we are infected with cold virii, not because we did something wrong. And with cancer we get cancer because of the physical, mental and emotional conditions that together cause cancer. Suzuki Roshi died of cancer, Katagiri Roshi died of cancer, and it was certainly nothing to do with past lives, something they'd done wrong or that they'd got off the spiritual path.
Do you then disagree with what Songyal Rnpoche says? I do not have the book with me so I apologize that I cannot quote the passage...
You're not rambling at all. One of the irrational fears that I have to deal with every day is the one that surfaces when my partner gets a lift to work in the morning. The person she drives with is, and there's just no other way to put this, very unaware - constantly fiddling with the radio, turning his head to talk to people whilst driving - and I don't mean for a fraction of a second but several seconds at a time, not checking his mirrors, the list goes on. So every day I see this fear come up and ask her to "be careful" - in other words to make sure this guy watches the road and doesn't kill everyone in the car.
I was actually taken aback that almost all of the drivers I've driven with here in the US don't seem to know how to just drive and pay attention. Not just one or two, but everyone I've been in a car with. I'm sure this is just my experience and not most American drivers but I do wonder about attention spans here - especially seeing American news - with it's prepackaged and over simplified soundbites and the constant and excessive interruption of commercials on TV and Radio every few minutes.
For myself, I feel it's not such a big deal this fear - I can give myself to death and it's okay, but the fear when it comes to my partner or her children is at times quite extraordinary (I do wonder whether in fact it's partly projected fear for my own death). Now that's rambling.
At first it did disturb me, Brigid. But the more I read into the chapter and reread it, though about it, the more I (I hope) understand. Cancer is a horrible thing for anyone to go through. I watched my grandmother die from it. As crazy as it sounds, I have an easier time excepting this notion (of it being a warning), for an adult. As adults, we behave in certain ways that contribute to our own samsara. But children? Now that I accept rebirth, I can begin to understand and apply it to the younger generations.
So far that it the only comment he made that I have had a hrad time with. It certainly puts my own morality into perspective. However, I was/am always more worried about those that I love dying more than myself. Remember that dream I shared awhile back?
(I was dying but I thought of my family?) I suppose I am OK with the fact that I will die. As close to the future as today when I drive home!!! (Yikes!) But it is out of my control, so I choose not to dwell on it.
OK, I feel like I am rambling..sorry
Not rambling at all. I remember that dream. I'm glad you're cool about dying. You're right, it's out of our hands so there's no point in dwelling on it. This book gets me all fired up about learning how to die well. LOL! Now there's a sentence I thought I'd never write before I became a Buddhist.
Do you then disagree with what Songyal Rnpoche says? I do not have the book with me so I apologize that I cannot quote the passage...
I don't yet have the book either so I can't really say. What I would say is that yes, illness is karma but that karma is not punishment or fate. If I don't take care of myself physically and then get run down as a result, it's karma yes, but not because of something I've done that's immoral. We get colds because of virii and the state of our immune systems, not because we're not being 'good'. Karma simply means that things happen for a reason, not as punishment.
"Tibetan Buddhists believe that illnesses like cancer can be a warning, to remind us that we have been neglecting deep aspects of our being, such as our spiritual needs. If we take this warning seriously and change fundamentally the direction of our lives, there is a very real hope for healing not only our body, but our whole being.".. pg 31
"The purpose of reflecting on death is to make a real change in the depths of your heart..."...pg 32
I don't read that 'you get cancer because you were bad in this life or have a karmic debt' at all.
"Tibetan Buddhists believe that illnesses like cancer can be a warning, to remind us that we have been neglecting deep aspects of our being, such as our spiritual needs. If we take this warning seriously and change fundamentally the direction of our lives, there is a very real hope for healing not only our body, but our whole being.".. pg 31
"The purpose of reflecting on death is to make a real change in the depths of your heart..."...pg 32
I don't read that 'you get cancer because you were bad in this life or have a karmic debt' at all.
Neither do I, nor do I know if I ever said that....I was curious about the passage b/c of this sickness happening to a 15 year old boy or iand an infant. These children are healthy in all aspects. Yet, this sickness has happened. I was tryng to connect it with the quote above. How can this cancer be a warning to such youngsters if it is not from a previous life?
Perhaps there is no answer.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
The key is in the first line....
"Tibetan Buddhists believe...."
This seems to me to be one of these "Truths" we have to ascertain for ourselves... and if we find issue with it, or cannot see it, then we can just leave it aside....
The key is in the first line....
"Tibetan Buddhists believe...."
This seems to me to be one of these "Truths" we have to ascertain for ourselves... and if we find issue with it, or cannot see it, then we can just leave it aside....
An Ah-Ha moment....thanks again for a needed reminder of that, Federica!:crazy:
Perhaps, you must find out for yourself. Death, and horrible pain visited on children is beyond my understanding...and I don't try to find a reason or try to impose order. However, I do know that the suffering of children brings great suffering on those that love them...and that is an opportunity for those families to grow spiritually.
I swear, that there are times when I look at my son, and see his suffering (from a mental disease) and my heart is so filled with compassion for him. At the same time, I am humbled and so grateful that his Buddha nature, that glowing part of him, has taken this on and offering me this hard lesson...this opportunity to crack my heart open and love more.
How can this cancer be a warning to such youngsters if it is not from a previous life? Perhaps there is no answer.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
Sometimes the wisest thing we can respond with is "I don't know"... because there are simply some things we cannot know. I'm sure that there are many much more experienced in such things than I am... and perhaps they do know... But I for myself, do not.
In cases such as these, we can only nourish the seeds of compassion within ourselves...
yes. Of the many things I can let go of and let them be, I hung on to this one b/c it hit so close to home and involved children.
"I don't know" is actually a brave answer to give yourself.
If I do not know an answer to a question from one of my students, I will say, "I don't know". They look at me like I'm crazy...I am the teacher after all, so I should know everything, LOL. I actually had a parent tell me that I was wrong and unprofessional for saying 'I don't know" to an answer. ..and the crazy part is, he asked if his child was HyperActive with Attention Deficit Disorder. I told him, "I don't know. I see characteristics of it. I cannot administer a test" . Sorry, that's off topic.
Sharpiegirl....you mean to tell me that being a teacher does not mean that you can diagnose an illness???
One of my favorite quotes from Chapter Three is this one:
"So each time the losses and deceptions of life teach us about impermanence, they bring us closer to the truth."
What a great quote that is to remember when we are sad about a loss in our life.
Crazy isn't it????
Actually, the meeting I had mentioned earlier in the week was yesterday. And I am happy to say it went well. Sr. Margaret nipped it in the bud before he could attack...support of your boss...gotta love it!
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited March 2006
Yay!! good for you, and well done Sr. Margaret! Man - those nuns can kick ass! Which brings us back to cage-fighting.....
LOL! They sure can! Ya don't want to mess with them!
I had what I needed to get y point across...and the kicker is..THEY are experiencing the same issues at home with the child! And yet. he som how thought he could blame me??!!
That description really made me want to have a teacher. I was kind of wishing I could have the same experience because I imagine it would be useful, to put it mildly. LOL
I don't have the slightest idea of what it really means and I wish I did. I'm expressing a lot of longing, aren't I? Well, I was glad he didn't go on too long about it. I wanted to put it on the back burner and get back to the process of how I could get there. And that's just what he did.
I am only beginning Chapter 4. I have so many other things going on right now...I am a bad student. You gals just keep talking about the book, and I will do my best to keep up!
On mediation: I am still having difficulty with this myself. I read something and it says that I should clear my mind of any thoughts...but then I see another reading that says "we should meditate on this". I apologize if I sound dense....but I am not sure about this....
In chapter 5 I like many of the passages on emotion e.g. page 78: "We often wonder what to do about negativity or certain troubling emotions. In a spacious mediation, you can view your thoughts and emotions with a totally unbiased attitude.,,,"
"So whatever thoughts and emotions arise, allow them to rise and settle, like waves of the ocean...don't grasp at it, feed it, or indulge it...You will soon see that thoughts are like the wind; they come and go..."
So many times I have let emotions rule my actions and in the process, I have hurt many.
Parts of this chapter have helped to SLOW down and THINK!
On mediation: I am still having difficulty with this myself. I read something and it says that I should clear my mind of any thoughts...but then I see another reading that says "we should meditate on this". I apologize if I sound dense....but I am not sure about this....
In chapter 5 I like many of the passages on emotion e.g. page 78: "We often wonder what to do about negativity or certain troubling emotions. In a spacious mediation, you can view your thoughts and emotions with a totally unbiased attitude.,,,"
"So whatever thoughts and emotions arise, allow them to rise and settle, like waves of the ocean...don't grasp at it, feed it, or indulge it...You will soon see that thoughts are like the wind; they come and go..."
So many times I have let emotions rule my actions and in the process, I have hurt many.
Parts of this chapter have helped to SLOW down and THINK!
I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but the way he explains meditation is amazing. I loved how he described it as taking the space between two thoughts and expanding it. I've been thinking about that for days and days.
This chapter has been more help to me when it comes to meditation than anything I've ever read. I have a question about something but I think it might be in chapter six so I'll hold off until we get there.
Is meditation clearing your mind of everything....I know it's clearing of distraction
of is pondering (for lack of a better word) on a particular thing...like death for example
Is meditation clearing your mind of everything....I know it's clearing of distraction
of is pondering (for lack of a better word) on a particular thing...like death for example
I don't think so. I don't think we're supposed to try to clear our minds of thoughts because it isn't possible, or at least as beginners. I think we're supposed to look at our minds and how our minds think.
I've been listening to Pema Chodron's talk on CD about meditation and she describes it as a gentle exercise. She says that when thoughts arise, label them "thinking" in a calm and compassionate inner voice and let them float away. She even says you can mentally put a sticky note on them labeled "thinking" and let them float away.
I think the idea is to get to know our minds a little better by calming ourselves but staying awake and alert to everything around you at the same time. Of course, there are tons of different techniques and I'm just talking about Mindfulness Meditation. And I'm certainly no expert on the subject. But I think "trying" or "striving" or "struggling" are things we don't want to do. The way Pema Chodron describes it, it's a much more gentle and compassionate exercise with ourselves.
She's really good at explaining these things to Westerners. If you can get your hands on her CD "Pure Meditation", which is actually two CD's of a talk she gave in front of an audience I think you'd really like it. She also has a collection of talks on CD titled "The Pema Chodron Audio Collection" and the "Pure Meditation" CD's are part of that. The set also includes "Good Medicine" and "From Fear to Fearlessness". At the moment this set is my second most prized possession, my first being a book Jerry, bless him, sent me by Jon Kabat-Zinn called "Full Catastrophe Living", for people living with chronic pain.
I'm right in the middle of a book called "Full Catastrophe Living" by Jon Kabat-Zin and in my opinion he explains meditation better than I've ever heard it explained. Try to get your hands on one of his books. My doctor recommended him to me and then Jerbear sent me this book and it's one of the best things I've ever read in my life. I have a whole new understanding and appreciation for mindfulness practice, whether it be while walking, doing yoga or meditating. He really takes the mystery out of it all and now I know how to put it all into practice everyday.
What he's actually doing is explaining mindfulness practice to Westerners who aren't Buddhists. In this book he is describing the techniques used in a stress reduction clinic for people with all kinds of challenges from Cancer and HIV/AIDS to back injuries, high blood pressure, heart problems and everything in between. Nothing I have read so far has helped me more and it's an easy read. No struggling through any difficult or subtle concepts. After I finish this book I'm going to go back and reread a lot of my Buddhist stuff because it's all going to make much more sense to me now.
This is wildly off topic. But it does explain why I've put The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying down for a while. I want to concentrate on this book by Kabat-Zin first.
Hey Brigid...
I have looked into the book you had mentioned. I noticed two books that are for stress and sickness. Do the book focus on that or could they be directed for the 'clueless' meditator like myself?
If any one is still interested, I am still enjoying the book....
Comments
but with young children, be it 15 years of age or infants with cancer. Is it a build up from past lives then???
I guess I have difficulty with the thought that young children are suffering because they are not spiritually on path.....
I have a hard time believing that, too, Sharpiegirl.
I think illness at an early age could be karma from a past life or lives coming to fruition. It's not a judgment on the young person and it could serve to bring them closer to a spiritual path. So I think we can look at it as the results of past karma being burned up and also a current opportunity which are both positive ways to look at it.
What do you think, Sharpiegirl? Does it still leave a bad taste in your mouth? I find the suffering of children to be one of the hardest things to understand and I can't even imagine what it's like for you, teaching first grade.
Parts of this book make me uncomfortable but I can't put my finger on it other than my desire to learn more about how to die well before I...well...die. LOL! Since I could die at any moment this book makes me a little edgy. LOL! I don't want to waste my death when he says it could be one of the most important opportunities I'll have in my life.
Love,
Brigid
So far that it the only comment he made that I have had a hrad time with. It certainly puts my own morality into perspective. However, I was/am always more worried about those that I love dying more than myself. Remember that dream I shared awhile back?
(I was dying but I thought of my family?) I suppose I am OK with the fact that I will die. As close to the future as today when I drive home!!! (Yikes!) But it is out of my control, so I choose not to dwell on it.
OK, I feel like I am rambling..sorry
Do you then disagree with what Songyal Rnpoche says? I do not have the book with me so I apologize that I cannot quote the passage...
I was actually taken aback that almost all of the drivers I've driven with here in the US don't seem to know how to just drive and pay attention. Not just one or two, but everyone I've been in a car with. I'm sure this is just my experience and not most American drivers but I do wonder about attention spans here - especially seeing American news - with it's prepackaged and over simplified soundbites and the constant and excessive interruption of commercials on TV and Radio every few minutes.
For myself, I feel it's not such a big deal this fear - I can give myself to death and it's okay, but the fear when it comes to my partner or her children is at times quite extraordinary (I do wonder whether in fact it's partly projected fear for my own death). Now that's rambling.
Not rambling at all. I remember that dream. I'm glad you're cool about dying. You're right, it's out of our hands so there's no point in dwelling on it. This book gets me all fired up about learning how to die well. LOL! Now there's a sentence I thought I'd never write before I became a Buddhist.
I'm going to read more right now.
Love,
Brigid
I don't yet have the book either so I can't really say. What I would say is that yes, illness is karma but that karma is not punishment or fate. If I don't take care of myself physically and then get run down as a result, it's karma yes, but not because of something I've done that's immoral. We get colds because of virii and the state of our immune systems, not because we're not being 'good'. Karma simply means that things happen for a reason, not as punishment.
"The purpose of reflecting on death is to make a real change in the depths of your heart..."...pg 32
I don't read that 'you get cancer because you were bad in this life or have a karmic debt' at all.
Neither do I, nor do I know if I ever said that....I was curious about the passage b/c of this sickness happening to a 15 year old boy or iand an infant. These children are healthy in all aspects. Yet, this sickness has happened. I was tryng to connect it with the quote above. How can this cancer be a warning to such youngsters if it is not from a previous life?
Perhaps there is no answer.
"Tibetan Buddhists believe...."
This seems to me to be one of these "Truths" we have to ascertain for ourselves... and if we find issue with it, or cannot see it, then we can just leave it aside....
An Ah-Ha moment....thanks again for a needed reminder of that, Federica!:crazy:
I swear, that there are times when I look at my son, and see his suffering (from a mental disease) and my heart is so filled with compassion for him. At the same time, I am humbled and so grateful that his Buddha nature, that glowing part of him, has taken this on and offering me this hard lesson...this opportunity to crack my heart open and love more.
In cases such as these, we can only nourish the seeds of compassion within ourselves...
"I don't know" doesn't mean "I don't care. "
"I don't know" is actually a brave answer to give yourself.
If I do not know an answer to a question from one of my students, I will say, "I don't know". They look at me like I'm crazy...I am the teacher after all, so I should know everything, LOL. I actually had a parent tell me that I was wrong and unprofessional for saying 'I don't know" to an answer. ..and the crazy part is, he asked if his child was HyperActive with Attention Deficit Disorder. I told him, "I don't know. I see characteristics of it. I cannot administer a test" . Sorry, that's off topic.
One of my favorite quotes from Chapter Three is this one:
"So each time the losses and deceptions of life teach us about impermanence, they bring us closer to the truth."
What a great quote that is to remember when we are sad about a loss in our life.
Crazy isn't it????
Actually, the meeting I had mentioned earlier in the week was yesterday. And I am happy to say it went well. Sr. Margaret nipped it in the bud before he could attack...support of your boss...gotta love it!
Can you imagine it.....??!!??
I had what I needed to get y point across...and the kicker is..THEY are experiencing the same issues at home with the child! And yet. he som how thought he could blame me??!!
-bf
I will begin reading Chapter 4 tonight, so I am ready whenever everyone else wants to start the discussion.
Brigid
Ch 4: The Nature of Mind
Pg. 43...the description of Sogyal being 'introduced' to his mind. Discuss?
I don't have the slightest idea of what it really means and I wish I did. I'm expressing a lot of longing, aren't I? Well, I was glad he didn't go on too long about it. I wanted to put it on the back burner and get back to the process of how I could get there. And that's just what he did.
Brigid
I was gonna say something, then I remembered I'm at New Buddhist, not It's Happening. Carry on!:cool:
Ok...carry on again.....
:cheer:
-bf
I'm just finishing up chapter 6.
Where is everyone else at? As soon as I know where we all stand a post something.
Brigid
Brigid
How about we discuss chapters 5 and 6 in Monday and throughout that week? I just need a couple of days to get sorted and I should be fine by Monday.
Is that O.K. with everyone?
Brigid
I too have been busy, like Yogamama...Monday next week sounds good.
On mediation: I am still having difficulty with this myself. I read something and it says that I should clear my mind of any thoughts...but then I see another reading that says "we should meditate on this". I apologize if I sound dense....but I am not sure about this....
In chapter 5 I like many of the passages on emotion e.g. page 78: "We often wonder what to do about negativity or certain troubling emotions. In a spacious mediation, you can view your thoughts and emotions with a totally unbiased attitude.,,,"
"So whatever thoughts and emotions arise, allow them to rise and settle, like waves of the ocean...don't grasp at it, feed it, or indulge it...You will soon see that thoughts are like the wind; they come and go..."
So many times I have let emotions rule my actions and in the process, I have hurt many.
Parts of this chapter have helped to SLOW down and THINK!
So... did you have a question about meditation?
-bf
This chapter has been more help to me when it comes to meditation than anything I've ever read. I have a question about something but I think it might be in chapter six so I'll hold off until we get there.
Love,
Brigid
of is pondering (for lack of a better word) on a particular thing...like death for example
I don't think so. I don't think we're supposed to try to clear our minds of thoughts because it isn't possible, or at least as beginners. I think we're supposed to look at our minds and how our minds think.
I've been listening to Pema Chodron's talk on CD about meditation and she describes it as a gentle exercise. She says that when thoughts arise, label them "thinking" in a calm and compassionate inner voice and let them float away. She even says you can mentally put a sticky note on them labeled "thinking" and let them float away.
I think the idea is to get to know our minds a little better by calming ourselves but staying awake and alert to everything around you at the same time. Of course, there are tons of different techniques and I'm just talking about Mindfulness Meditation. And I'm certainly no expert on the subject. But I think "trying" or "striving" or "struggling" are things we don't want to do. The way Pema Chodron describes it, it's a much more gentle and compassionate exercise with ourselves.
She's really good at explaining these things to Westerners. If you can get your hands on her CD "Pure Meditation", which is actually two CD's of a talk she gave in front of an audience I think you'd really like it. She also has a collection of talks on CD titled "The Pema Chodron Audio Collection" and the "Pure Meditation" CD's are part of that. The set also includes "Good Medicine" and "From Fear to Fearlessness". At the moment this set is my second most prized possession, my first being a book Jerry, bless him, sent me by Jon Kabat-Zinn called "Full Catastrophe Living", for people living with chronic pain.
Love,
Brigid
Unfortunately what I have read so far still leave baffled. I will get my hands on this CD...
I'm right in the middle of a book called "Full Catastrophe Living" by Jon Kabat-Zin and in my opinion he explains meditation better than I've ever heard it explained. Try to get your hands on one of his books. My doctor recommended him to me and then Jerbear sent me this book and it's one of the best things I've ever read in my life. I have a whole new understanding and appreciation for mindfulness practice, whether it be while walking, doing yoga or meditating. He really takes the mystery out of it all and now I know how to put it all into practice everyday.
What he's actually doing is explaining mindfulness practice to Westerners who aren't Buddhists. In this book he is describing the techniques used in a stress reduction clinic for people with all kinds of challenges from Cancer and HIV/AIDS to back injuries, high blood pressure, heart problems and everything in between. Nothing I have read so far has helped me more and it's an easy read. No struggling through any difficult or subtle concepts. After I finish this book I'm going to go back and reread a lot of my Buddhist stuff because it's all going to make much more sense to me now.
This is wildly off topic. But it does explain why I've put The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying down for a while. I want to concentrate on this book by Kabat-Zin first.
Brigid
I have looked into the book you had mentioned. I noticed two books that are for stress and sickness. Do the book focus on that or could they be directed for the 'clueless' meditator like myself?
If any one is still interested, I am still enjoying the book....