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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2006
I too am plodding my way through it gently and gradually...
I have many distractions at the moment, so the lesson on Bringing the Mind Home is just bliss to me... Just reading about it is sufficient to transport me into a state of meditative Calm Abiding....
I realise I must be behind with this one; I don't know what chapter you're on....
I also know i'm supposed to be going through 'The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching' but I'm falling behind with that one too...(Jerbear must be feeling a bit let down, but I haven't seen him around lately.... )
Hey Brigid...
I have looked into the book you had mentioned. I noticed two books that are for stress and sickness. Do the book focus on that or could they be directed for the 'clueless' meditator like myself?
If any one is still interested, I am still enjoying the book....
In my opinion, it's the best explanation of mindfulness practice, including meditation, that I have ever read. It's faithful to Buddhist meditation but it's meant for people who don't have a background in or understanding of Buddhist meditation. You don't have to have stress problems or illness at all because it's all about mindfulness. Grab it if you have a chance. It's been out for years so you'll also find it at your local library. You'll love it. It's a smooth and easy read and it's making everything else so much more understandable to me.
To briefly summarize the Tibetan Book of the Dead, it is a traditional Tibetan funeral text to be read aloud in the presence of the dying person. It describes, in general, the process of death and then afterwards, rebirth, in terms of three states or antara (bardo).
The first, and perhaps the highest, is the antara where, at the moment of death, the clear light dawns upon the dying one. In recognizing this light which is the supreme basis of all phenomena, one is forever disengaged from rebirth (with the implication that rebirth is virtually synonymous with suffering).
If one does not recognize this light (which is much like the phos zoe, or the light of life in the Gospel of John) then the dying one enters the antara of reality. When the aggregated personality begins to dissolve the dying one sees the light in the form a mandala (or world) of 58 wrathful deities and a madnala of 42 peaceful deities. Failing to recognize this antara the third antara of mundane existence appears in which, by necessity, one must take rebirth. The mundane realm consists of six destines, viz., gods, demigods, humans, animals, hungry spirits, or hell.
I have included here a section from Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakoshabhasyam 3:15 which describes human rebirth from antara or intermediate being.
An intermediate being is produced with a view to going to the place of its realm of rebirth where it should go. It possesses, by virtue of its actions, the divine eye. Even though distant he sees the place of his rebirth. There he sees his father and mother united. His mind is troubled by the effects of sex and hostility. When the intermediate being is male, it is gripped by a male desire with regard to the mother; when it is female, it is gripped by a female desire with regard to the father; and, inversely, it hates either the father, or the mother, whom it regards as either a male or a female rival. As it is said in the Prajñâpti, "Then neither a mind of lust, or a mind of hatred is produced in the Gandharva.” When the mind is thus troubled by these two erroneous thoughts, it attaches itself through the desire for sex to the place where the organs are joined together, imagining that it is he with whom they unite. Then the impurities of semen and blood are found in the womb; the intermediate being, enjoying its pleasures, installs itself there. Then the skandhas harden; the intermediate being perishes; and birth arises that is called "reincarnation" (pratisa.mdhi).
I hope this contribution helps. Cutting through the mythological context, if we take it for granted that life is a field or a matrix of sorts, then death is change into other—never finality. I think the Tibetan Book of the Dead offers enough food for thought to reason as follows: If we see the clear light, there is no 'change into other' this being rebirth, because all is really the stuff of this clear light. If we fail to see this light, owing to our desire for this light's materialization instead, our next birth will me more or less painful, followed by many more deaths and rebirths until we can see this light.
Love ya all,
Bobby
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2006
Sorry....Bobby....You do know that this isn't the book under review and discussion....?
We're talking about "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying", by Sogyal Rinpoché....
I realise I must be behind with this one; I don't know what chapter you're on....
I also know i'm supposed to be going through 'The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching' but I'm falling behind with that one too...(Jerbear must be feeling a bit let down, but I haven't seen him around lately.... )
Keep walking the talk..... :-/ :type:
I took the time to read and underline two chapters - but didn't post them. I will try to do that tonight. Maybe Jer will come back.
In my opinion, it's the best explanation of mindfulness practice, including meditation, that I have ever read. It's faithful to Buddhist meditation but it's meant for people who don't have a background in or understanding of Buddhist meditation. You don't have to have stress problems or illness at all because it's all about mindfulness. Grab it if you have a chance. It's been out for years so you'll also find it at your local library. You'll love it. It's a smooth and easy read and it's making everything else so much more understandable to me.
I too am plodding my way through it gently and gradually...
I have many distractions at the moment, so the lesson on Bringing the Mind Home is just bliss to me... Just reading about it is sufficient to transport me into a state of meditative Calm Abiding....
I realise I must be behind with this one; I don't know what chapter you're on....
I also know i'm supposed to be going through 'The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching' but I'm falling behind with that one too...(Jerbear must be feeling a bit let down, but I haven't seen him around lately.... )
Keep walking the talk..... :-/ :type:
I am on chapter 7 "Bardos: and Other Realities". I find myself rereading and spending a day or two in reflection before moving on...
I have been reading this book scince last year. I am so glad that you are talking about it because it will give me the incentive to finish up. Ironicly 2 weeks after I started reading it my 19 year old cousin commited suicide. It really helped me through to realize the bigger picture and how to respond to those around me. I got a great passage from it for his eulogy.
"This existance of ours is as transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of a loved one is like watching the movements of a dance."
hmm. bobby i thought your briefing ( of the wrong book ) was awesome..
gona cut and paste your words.. i learned alot ...
i want to examine your material alil more
thanx
ps.. the tibetan book of the living and dying has added detail information that
goes hand in hand.. : )
The babe Uma Thurman, her dad, Robert, produced a wonderful book concerning the The Book of Liberation Through Understanding in the Between: The Tibetan Book of the Dead. I liked it!
I have that version as well, but Rinpoche's is much more readable.
I'm new to Buddhism, and it was rather a shock this past month to discover that Uma was related. I live in Amherst, MA...and she was in our school system for awhile as a kid. I also, really 'dig' his books, and it was a nice feeling to learn about the connections (via the Shambala article this month).
I recently saw the D.V.D of this (The Tibetan Book Of Living And Dying)
I am left with a few questions though.
The book itself I believe is read to a person who is dying or has died.It is to help them through the bardo.I am wondering though that seeing as I speak English and don't know any Tibetan,would it be chanted to me in English or does it HAVE to be chanted in Tibetan.I have a teacher who can speak English but can't read it as he is Tibetan.I am now a little worried.If my Lama chants the text in Tibetan,how willl I know what's getting said?
Does anyone know any answers to this?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2008
You are mistaking this for The Tibetan Book of the Dead.
The two are quite different.
But as to the specific of your question -
I don't know.
I recently saw the D.V.D of this (The Tibetan Book Of Living And Dying)
I am left with a few questions though.
The book itself I believe is read to a person who is dying or has died.It is to help them through the bardo.I am wondering though that seeing as I speak English and don't know any Tibetan,would it be chanted to me in English or does it HAVE to be chanted in Tibetan.I have a teacher who can speak English but can't read it as he is Tibetan.I am now a little worried.If my Lama chants the text in Tibetan,how willl I know what's getting said?
Does anyone know any answers to this?
Underlying your question, Karmatsering, is a very important matter which has troubled people for a very long time. In my own lifetime, I have watched and participated in a similar questioning about the use of Latin in the western Catholic Church. Long before that, the Reformers also confronted the question, relating it to the 'worthiness' of the celebrant.
In many traditions, old and more recent, rituals have to be carried out precisely and accurately. Why? Because they would not 'work' if you got them wrong. The same attitude is at the heart of the Harry Potter books: the students have to get the words, their pronunciation and the wand-wave all correct or the feather won't lift or Voldemort won't be defeated.
For some of us, some of these concerns appear to be superstitious but, if you are similar to me, some of us are not entirely sure.
Perhaps you could ask your teacher what his opinion might be. Does the recitation (in his world-view) bring merit in and of itself or does the moribund person have to be able to follow the words. And, if the latter, how does he see the recitation working?
I don't have any answers...but do have a limited perspective that might be of some use.
1. After being operated on, the anethesiologist (sp?) gave me too much anathesia. It was an interesting experience...I observed losing feeling in the body, and my eyesight shut down even though my eyes were open, and breathing became 'laborous'. However....I could hear perfectly the panic of the nurses as the alarm went off on my bed, and the conversation ('70 over 50!') as they searched the hospital for the guy. Perhaps...hearing is the last sense to be affected in death???
2. I am certain the last moments/hours in one life can be carried forward as vestigal traces...memories, etc. So, taking the above, an my belief...I can understand why most major religions have some form of 'last rites', or sitting with the dying to 'ease' the transition.
3. An experience from another operation...I am certain that even wordless communication occurs. In that state/bardo, the luminous of others as well as revealed text becomes apparent to the dying. So...no...I don't think it matters to the dying what language is spoken. It's a benefit any way they get it.
i have to of those books Tibetan book of the Death & Tibetan book of the Living & Dying. I read the Tibetan Book of the Living & Dying once a year to refresh my mind of the whole point of it. I have yet to read the Book of the Death. i try reading it but it is very in depth
I will read it when my time comes to read it. as for every thing else you will now yourself when the time comes to do something.
Comments
I have many distractions at the moment, so the lesson on Bringing the Mind Home is just bliss to me... Just reading about it is sufficient to transport me into a state of meditative Calm Abiding....
I realise I must be behind with this one; I don't know what chapter you're on....
I also know i'm supposed to be going through 'The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching' but I'm falling behind with that one too...(Jerbear must be feeling a bit let down, but I haven't seen him around lately....
Keep walking the talk..... :-/ :type:
In my opinion, it's the best explanation of mindfulness practice, including meditation, that I have ever read. It's faithful to Buddhist meditation but it's meant for people who don't have a background in or understanding of Buddhist meditation. You don't have to have stress problems or illness at all because it's all about mindfulness. Grab it if you have a chance. It's been out for years so you'll also find it at your local library. You'll love it. It's a smooth and easy read and it's making everything else so much more understandable to me.
Brigid
The first, and perhaps the highest, is the antara where, at the moment of death, the clear light dawns upon the dying one. In recognizing this light which is the supreme basis of all phenomena, one is forever disengaged from rebirth (with the implication that rebirth is virtually synonymous with suffering).
If one does not recognize this light (which is much like the phos zoe, or the light of life in the Gospel of John) then the dying one enters the antara of reality. When the aggregated personality begins to dissolve the dying one sees the light in the form a mandala (or world) of 58 wrathful deities and a madnala of 42 peaceful deities. Failing to recognize this antara the third antara of mundane existence appears in which, by necessity, one must take rebirth. The mundane realm consists of six destines, viz., gods, demigods, humans, animals, hungry spirits, or hell.
I have included here a section from Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakoshabhasyam 3:15 which describes human rebirth from antara or intermediate being.
I hope this contribution helps. Cutting through the mythological context, if we take it for granted that life is a field or a matrix of sorts, then death is change into other—never finality. I think the Tibetan Book of the Dead offers enough food for thought to reason as follows: If we see the clear light, there is no 'change into other' this being rebirth, because all is really the stuff of this clear light. If we fail to see this light, owing to our desire for this light's materialization instead, our next birth will me more or less painful, followed by many more deaths and rebirths until we can see this light.
Love ya all,
Bobby
We're talking about "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying", by Sogyal Rinpoché....
But thank you for your comments.
I took the time to read and underline two chapters - but didn't post them. I will try to do that tonight. Maybe Jer will come back.
-bf
I purchased it yesterday....Thanks!
"This existance of ours is as transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of a loved one is like watching the movements of a dance."
gona cut and paste your words.. i learned alot ...
i want to examine your material alil more
thanx
ps.. the tibetan book of the living and dying has added detail information that
goes hand in hand.. : )
I'm new to Buddhism, and it was rather a shock this past month to discover that Uma was related. I live in Amherst, MA...and she was in our school system for awhile as a kid. I also, really 'dig' his books, and it was a nice feeling to learn about the connections (via the Shambala article this month).
I recently saw the D.V.D of this (The Tibetan Book Of Living And Dying)
I am left with a few questions though.
The book itself I believe is read to a person who is dying or has died.It is to help them through the bardo.I am wondering though that seeing as I speak English and don't know any Tibetan,would it be chanted to me in English or does it HAVE to be chanted in Tibetan.I have a teacher who can speak English but can't read it as he is Tibetan.I am now a little worried.If my Lama chants the text in Tibetan,how willl I know what's getting said?
Does anyone know any answers to this?
The two are quite different.
But as to the specific of your question -
I don't know.
Underlying your question, Karmatsering, is a very important matter which has troubled people for a very long time. In my own lifetime, I have watched and participated in a similar questioning about the use of Latin in the western Catholic Church. Long before that, the Reformers also confronted the question, relating it to the 'worthiness' of the celebrant.
In many traditions, old and more recent, rituals have to be carried out precisely and accurately. Why? Because they would not 'work' if you got them wrong. The same attitude is at the heart of the Harry Potter books: the students have to get the words, their pronunciation and the wand-wave all correct or the feather won't lift or Voldemort won't be defeated.
For some of us, some of these concerns appear to be superstitious but, if you are similar to me, some of us are not entirely sure.
Perhaps you could ask your teacher what his opinion might be. Does the recitation (in his world-view) bring merit in and of itself or does the moribund person have to be able to follow the words. And, if the latter, how does he see the recitation working?
1. After being operated on, the anethesiologist (sp?) gave me too much anathesia. It was an interesting experience...I observed losing feeling in the body, and my eyesight shut down even though my eyes were open, and breathing became 'laborous'. However....I could hear perfectly the panic of the nurses as the alarm went off on my bed, and the conversation ('70 over 50!') as they searched the hospital for the guy. Perhaps...hearing is the last sense to be affected in death???
2. I am certain the last moments/hours in one life can be carried forward as vestigal traces...memories, etc. So, taking the above, an my belief...I can understand why most major religions have some form of 'last rites', or sitting with the dying to 'ease' the transition.
3. An experience from another operation...I am certain that even wordless communication occurs. In that state/bardo, the luminous of others as well as revealed text becomes apparent to the dying. So...no...I don't think it matters to the dying what language is spoken. It's a benefit any way they get it.
I will read it when my time comes to read it. as for every thing else you will now yourself when the time comes to do something.