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Buddhists Against Reincarnation!!!
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I do support the diversity of science, but for me that quantum mechanics proves Buddhism & rebirth is illogical.
No one should ever claim this proves that unless there is ACTUAL EVIDENCE!
"Shun asked Ch'eng, "Is it possible to gain possession of the Way?�
"You don't even have possession of your own body! How could you possibly gain possession of the Way?"
"If I don't have possession of my own body, then who does?" said Shun.
"It is a form lent you by Heaven and earth. You do not have possession of life ‑ it is a harmony lent by Heaven and earth. You do not have possession of your inborn nature and fate - they are contingencies lent by Heaven and earth. All is the work of the Powerful Yang in the world. How then could it be possible to gain possession of anything?""
I find it helpful to distinguish between scientism and science. Scientism often masquerades as science:
Scientism refers to a belief in the universal applicability of the systematic methods and approach of science, especially the view that empirical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview or most valuable part of human learning to the exclusion of other viewpoints.
''The recent findings of Quantum Physics (especially Dr Bohm's work) about the universe being made up of an "interconnected unbroken wholeness", examples of Non-Locality phenomena (Bells Theorem) and the 'Observer Effect' implying that consciousness underlies all reality, has striking parallels with the ancient Esoteric concept that all reality is the manifestation of an infinite Singularity (creative principle) which I personally choose to call Source, and most others call God. However, none of this is surprising to those who have experienced the 'Oneness' associated with some sort of deep spiritual experience or holotropic state. 7''
In my original post I may have worded it in an indecent manner, but yes basically according to quantum physics the observor sets matter into a fixed place by merely observing it. Without an observer, it can be in two places at once or in every infinite place at once, and every number of places in between.
Relating all of this to the original topic, we do not understand exactly what consciousness is or what happens to it when we die. Believe what you will about rebirth, that is up to you such as your entire life, or lives hehe.
http://www.tricycle.com/feature/reincarnation-debate
Reincarnation: A Debate
Batchelor v. Thurman
Stephen Batchelor in Insight Journal: You don't have to believe in rebirth to be a Buddhist
http://www.tricycle.com/p/1952
Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" (where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false, or that a proposition is false because it has not been proven true".
From a purely scientific view, the logical and reasonable response is "Maybe".
For instance, Charles Taylor contends that the real is whatever will not go away. If we cannot reduce talk about God to anything else, or replace it, or prove it false, then perhaps God is as real as anything else.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_god
God and rebirth certainly are “real” in this sense: that they are non-falsifiable ideas and there’s no way to put an end to the discussion about them.
God and rebirth will never go away.
I too take issue with the term reincarnation which suggests a resurrection of a single personality. I don't believe that is what rebirth is. Our personality is a construct of our conditioning which disperses at death. It is the mask we hide behind in the world but it is not our true nature. Only our Buddha nature can make the decision to come back to live again, not for the purpose of ego-grasping but to work out our karma and practise towards enlightenment.
Well isn't so? Where in the 4NT's , the N8 or in the 3 marks is the question of literal rebirth relevant? Even the idea of Kamma stands up just fine without the idea of literal rebirth. I punch a cop, I go to jail-Kamma in action.My problem with rebith is that is unknowable, untestable and is an utterly subjective faith based idea.
All the best,
Todd
Though most of buddhism can be practiced quite effectivly without this idea.
Not exactly because I never said rebirth is real! Do not mistake non-denial for affirmation, they are VERY FAR from the same thing.
Master Seung Sahn: "To the cemetary!"
IF you believe in the wheel of reincarnation and an eternal self, THEN you believe that the Buddha achieved parinirvana or final escape from reincarnation and his self entered Nirvana at death, a state of eternal bliss. I suppose the significance of not believing in reincarnation is, I believe everyone, everywhere, no matter what religion, ends up in the same place when we die. We end up dead. My personal belief is anything said beyond that is guesswork.
The sutras, like all ancient religious writings, are a record of competing philosophies and traditions, each tradition arguing against the other monks and trying to make the case for their own team's definition of correct practice. The struggle between no-self and self based theologies has been going on since before Buddha, to read the questions put to him. Considering the contradictory answers he was supposed to have given in the various sutras, I doubt anything said here is going to settle the issue.
So Buddhism for me is all about the here-and-now, not past and future life karma. Surprisingly, it doesn't make a bit of difference in the actual practice, far as I can tell.
Many laughs you continue to give me tonight, lol. Lovely contribution!
At least now you're asking the right question.
It would not be liberation. imho
in killing myself, the consequences for me personally, would be unknowable.
The consequences for those around me, who depend on me, and who have deep feelings for me, would be unbearable.
My death - at my own hands - would leave shock, bewilderment, sadness, suffering and deep distress.
Why would I willingly do such a thing, and leave such tragedy in my wake?
Killing myself would not be the ultimate end of attachment, desire and suffering.
It would engender and perpetuate it.
And they would still wonder if there wasn't some way they could have been more supportive of you, and helped you more.
Guilt is a part of this kind of grief.
I've seen it, and it's desperately sad.
Even with the explanation of their actions, people still leave a yawning, gaping hole in the lives of others.
See, in order to do that, you'd have to have everyone's consent. Otherwise, you'd still be making people suffer.
I know these questions are fruitless and kinda dumb but I can't help from inquiring
Such research is ultimately fruitless.
Why cultivate something that has no fruit, or bearing?
Your question arises for many people as they reflect on their spiritual path. Much the same question can be asked of Christians or Muslims, although Jewish philosophy almost entirely avoids it.
From the Buddhist point of view, the answer is to be found in the First Turning of the Wheel, in the Deer Park Sermon. It is answered by the Third and Fourth Noble Truth. They are about ending dukkha in our current life, whether there is another or not, which is why it is possible to have this debate at all.
It is the reason why the Shakyamuni Buddha decided, after long reflection, to teach what he had learned: despite all appearances, it is possible to find the way out of dukkha and it is the Noble Eightfold Way.
Here and now, dear heart, otherwise you would be right that death would be the Way. It isn't.
Yes, the question is often thrown at atheists in particular. It's from the set of questions that ask what keeps atheists from going out and killing and raping people. It assumes a life without some sort of eternal afterlife and divine judgement is worthless and without moral grounding and that the only thing keeping us from being mass murderers is fear of punishment after death.
Whether or not you believe there is a Heaven and Hell or reincarnation up and down the karmic ladder makes not the slightest bit of difference in who you are and your actions. All you have to do is look around with a clear mind. Since when has religion been able to stop people from suicide or murder? All it does is give some people justification for what they are going to do no matter what their beliefs.
You don't hug your children, kiss your wife and head off to earn a living in the morning because you need good karma points for some imagined next life. Life is a precious moment and all we have.
What exactly is the point, then, if you KNOW the questions are fruitless?
Good OP. Suicide? World Destruction? Hmmm???
Namaste
Be right back.