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I agree with federica. I may be wrong, but the common collective view from the entire world is that USA has always wanted to take over the world, but not in a very blunt 'in your face manner'. They do it almost ninja style, making their actions seem just and so forth. The people of Europe created the USA, and what a monster it created
This same thing comes up in vegetarianism. There are ways to justify both war and meat eating.
But nonetheless if you don't want to live in a world where you are involved in killing the power is in your hands to be a peaceful vegetarian. We have choices.
I agree with federica. I may be wrong, but the common collective view from the entire world is that USA has always wanted to take over the world, but not in a very blunt 'in your face manner'. They do it almost ninja style, making their actions seem just and so forth. The people of Europe created the USA, and what a monster it created
It is the power of a big idea Tom. Liberty and justice for all. From many , one. Incredibly seductive.
for all, except the OWS protesters. And the unfortunates who ended up as "collateral damage" in Iraq and Afghanistan. And those Iranians who protested the US-installed Shah of Iran's regime. And the thousands upon thousands of Mayan villagers who were killed in or displaced by the 1980's genocide after the US-backed coup removed the democratic president of Guatemala, just because he wanted to institute land reforms, agrarian reform. I could go on, but I'll spare everyone the details.
btw, The US didn't enter the war against the Japanese in order to avenge Pearl Harbor. It had been looking for an excuse to get into the war, and the bombing of Pearl Harbor provided it. The US was an ally of Nationalist China at the time. The Japanese also invaded Alaska. You didn't really think dropping two atomic bombs on Japan was for revenge over Pearl Harbor, did you?
Thanks to Karl Rove et al, we have been sold a neatly wrapped myth of "Muslim terror" as the chief threat to the world, when the real threat is the new nuclear Axis, China-Pakistan-Mystery Nation(s).
Just as the world watched Germany arm up in the 1930s, almost with a sense of pity/condescending respect, we are watching China now. Just as in the 1930s, those who raise questions are called "alarmists." And so history repeats itself, or at least mimics itself.
I served six years; the reason I would not rejoin the military now, is that the generals are still having their strings pulled by the foolish architects of the Bad Iraq Idea.
I respect any fellow soldier, and I respect our nation, but I have to be honest, and I hope you'll take it as honesty, and not as a condemnation. We each have a right to choose our path.
If I were still a fighting woman, I'd probably try to go the intelligence route, and get to work on China - though troops will probably be in Pakistan soon enough.
But I cling to the belief that non-violence is extremely powerful, and that any organization that takes away my right to decide, in any given moment, who I will kill or not kill, is not an organization I can belong to. Killing is so extreme, that it absolutely has to be your own decision, and only your own decision, if you have any hope at all of it being a justified killing. And almost no killing is ever justified.
P.S. It's never too late to demand an intelligence commission. We're short on troops, and you have a lot more say over your MOS than used to be the case.
I will just tell you. It was in fact laos lol.. Believe it or not, people still die very often by stepping over un-exploded bombs. There was a war between Laos and the US that spanned 7 years I think. But they bombed the hell out of it.
It was Henry Kissinger who ordered that. He later got the Nobel Peace Prize. Vietnamese troops were using trails in Laos to move from north into the south, as Laos shared a border with Vietnam. Great quiz, Tom! :clap:
"Truth, Justice, and the American way!" (Superman)
Guys, I don't see our nation in the good old US as being better or worse than any other, all things considered. As a nation that had the resources to become a superpower we certainly stomped on enough people over the years in our struggle against the other superpowers and in the push and shove of world domination.
We were taught to cherish certain principles, spelled out best in the Superman Salute to America. We claim not to put up with governments lying to their citizens, we claim to hold the rule of law as inviolate, and the "American Way" is just another way of saying a democracy where each citizen gets one vote.
So how we doing, now that we don't have the Evil Soviet Empire to provide the bad example of what not to do? Truth? The government of course lies to us over and over, or just keeps its dirty laundry secret, like any other government in the world. Justice? The rule of law now means one law for the rich and powerful and a different set of laws for everyone else, and the laws don't even apply to "enemies of the state" and again that's just like most governments out there. And democracy? One citizen, one vote? That's always been a pipe dream, and today our politicians openly pass laws trying to keep as many people as possible from voting (at least poor people, who are likely to vote against them) and everyone yawns.
Even the final refuge of righteousness, "At least we don't torture people!" has turned out in the end to be just smoke and mirrors. When called on it, politicians take refuge in semantics (It's only torture if you make them bleed) or expediency (Hey, it works and they deserve it) but they know in the end, it doesn't matter because for the scared voters, it all boils down to the definition of "people", not torture. We don't torture people, but those terrorists aren't really people, are they?
Anyway, that's my rant for today. How I drug Superman into this mess escapes me right now. And there are some nations that seem to have avoided some of this mess, so I'm not saying your particular government behaves like ours. Let them become world powers, though, and see if they don't.
There are by recent estimations I've seen, nearly 110,000 American young men buried in Europe, most of them in France, Belgium, England, Italy, and the Netherlands. What colonies did they conquer for America between 1917-45? Is this too American hubris?
As an ex British soldier of 17 years service, I was always amazed to be in places like the Former Yugoslavia and find an old British army war grave from some long forgotten conflict.
But I think you need to remove those rose tinted spectacles; modern wars may not be fought to increase land area Empires, but none-the-less, wars are still fought with money and business in mind. Politicians may justify these wars by taking the moral high ground; Bush even cited Bible references to justify the invasion of Iraq (I was there in 1990/91 when his father was in charge); but really, it has very little to do with 'right'.
You'll notice little or nothing gets done in World trouble spots which has no economic interest to the West.
Saying all that, I think the US and the UK are getting a bit tired of these pointless wars, so hopefully you'll do your service during a quieter period. When I joined up in 1986, we had the Cold War, which was great in the way it wasn't a 'shoot 'em up' type of war; the only active service I did in the early days was Northern Ireland against the Republican terrorists (though some called them freedom fighters). Then it was the Gulf War, then Bosnia (three tours), and then Kosovo during the initial entry after we'd lived in some wet and miserable field in Macedonia for months.
I resigned from the army just as Gulf War 2 and Afghanistan was kicking off; I'd had enough of rough living and troubled places.
But it was a good experience; I'm not anti-military; we need our armed forces, but I do wish they were used more wisely and in a more humanitarian manner, rather than being used for political and financial motives.
Unless you wish to identify yourself with genocide, rape, and starvation of civilian women and children, you might not want Sherman as your icon.
I'm afraid you've bought into the Lost Causer revisionism there. Only slightly more than 100 people died from Sherman's 400+ mile march, whereas over 300,000 souls were lost between Washington and Richmond. He did not engage in genocide, nor were the Southernors starved. Their propoerty was ransacked and a quarter of a million enslaved blacks were freed. The Confederacy soon crumbled. One of the greatest men to have been blessed with.
I agree with federica. I may be wrong, but the common collective view from the entire world is that USA has always wanted to take over the world, but not in a very blunt 'in your face manner'. They do it almost ninja style, making their actions seem just and so forth. The people of Europe created the USA, and what a monster it created
Well frankly I don't put much stock in "world opinion." It has been so helpful after all in drawing attention to the ethnic cleansing of minority religious groups in Egypt and Iraq, and was oh so instrumental in bringing to light the famine/genocide committed against the Chinese by their own government in the 60s. (sarcasm end)
How has America "taken over the world" or even come close? What colonies are we extracting all the natural resources from? Do you really believe hegemony by Russia or China or Iran would be so benevolent?
And @ Tosh,
Thank you for your service. And to the rest of the prior servicemembers. I am a big anglophile and hold a very dear spot in my heart for Canada and Britain from my travels.
By the way, I came across the fact about Laos and it being the most bombed country through a blog written by an American woman. She lives in Laos and has lived in SE Asia a long time.
In part of her blog she explained that she was at a restaurant, well a type of one anyway. Outside was an old deactivated bomb turned into a kind of memorial with a head stone inscripted. She said that the owner of the restaurant came out and stood next to it, smilled with a huge grin tapping it and said 'Ah-mare-ri-ca' twice. She then went on to say that most people and most americans do not even know of that war that went on, a war that still causes death and suffering today.
American nationals are highly advised to inform their embassey before entering Laos as it is so dangerous due to unexploded bombs and just the country itself.
If killing is necessary then do it with an open heart. Then shed the tears because we only kill brothers and sisters. Make that pain boil in your heart and let such pain refine you so that only compassion reigns.
As a buddhist killing is unskillful. But if one can open their hearts completely then kill all you want.
But then again you'd only be killing parts of yourself.
Delusion. Ignorance. Greed. Aversion. Lust. If you were to kill these then what a person you'd be.
Then why are the American and Japanese and the British and Germans no longer fighting each other?
Many of the recent World conflicts are a direct result of WW2 and the policies that followed. Kuwait, for example, used to be part of Iraq, till Britain annexed it after WW2 (we wanted oil and shipping rights). Iraq then goes into Kuwait to reclaim it in 1990.
Israel and Palestine is a direct result of WW2, so was the trouble in the Balkans. There's probably many more.
And of course, WW2 is a direct consequence of WW1.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I think in Buddhism its ok to do whatever you want without consequence as long as you do it for the good team.
Then why are the American and Japanese and the British and Germans no longer fighting each other?
Sorry for this subsequent post, I've thought a little deeper about this; I've a 'friend' who killed between 11 and 15 Iraqis, he was a Chain Gunner on an armoured fighting vehicle called a Warrior. He was n-n-n-n-nineteen at the time (remember the Paul Hardcastle song?). He left the army when he was 21 and has been completely and utterly feckless ever since. He's twice been caught for a DUI (drink driving) and should've went to prison for the second offence, but his military record gave him mitigating circumstances.
He has fathered two children to two different women; but is not a father. He drinks heavily, he's aggressive, fights in pubs, and is leading a really unskilful life.
Does he suffer with a post traumatic stress disorder? Who knows?
An interesting tid bit is that more soldiers who served in the Falklands War have committed suicide, than the actual 250 (or so) who actually died there in action.
I agree with you Knight, but I have quickly learned that arguing against the anti US elements here, including some Mods, will achieve nothing... It will get ugly and the thread will be closed... I have learned this
Then why are the American and Japanese and the British and Germans no longer fighting each other?
America and Britain are no longer fighting Japan and Germany because we used mass-terrorism to stop both wars--nuking one civilian population, and firebombing the other. We also let the Russians feed their young men into the European war grinder until "we" basically out-died the Axis there.
It's entirely likely fewer people an all sides--civilian and military--would have died had the war been allowed to rage on. I do understand that at the time, people were sick of the war and death, and under enormous pressure to end it.
I'm reminded, though, of the Waco example: the Feds had accused Koresh of abusing children, in response to which the Feds ended up burning 21 children to death just to end the "problem."
No matter how much suffering is taking place, if your solution brings equal or more suffering, you can't say it's a solution, and you can't say it's right.
As a Brit in my 69th year, the 1914-1945 world war (including the pause to allow Germany to rearm) was integral to my childhood and youth. Since then I have learned about my family members who died in camps, including the post-war DP camps under the aegis of the Allies. My basic mindset, as the son of a WW1 soldier who also served with the Red Cross in the Spanish Civil War and as a doctort through the London Blitz, has been as a puzzled pacifist. Both my Christian and Buddhist principles suggest pacifism as the noble way and, at the same time, I know that some situations reach a point where military intervention becomes inevitable. My problem is that, as has been pointed out time and again by the most senior officers, that once hostilities begin, law seems to go out of the window.
As a callow youth and still an idealist, I believed that the Blue Helmets (UN troops) would be the solution but history shows that they have behaved in appalling ways as well - e.g. Haiti or Bosnia.
Ma\ny years ago, I met an elderly man who had been a colonel in the British Army, fighting in Cyprus and Kenya among other theatres. After he had completed his service, he said, he had 'retrained' and became a Catholic priest. I asked him what linked his two careers. His reply was "a passion for justice."
I believe that many a soldier joins up with the very best intentions. I do not believe that any well-informed soldier looks forward to the battlefield or intends to rape or torture. But they do. War bestialised even the best of us.
It is a pity that this thread has degenerated into stone throwing at imperialist nations. We all live in glass houses and both the British and US empires have indulged in war crimes and genocide. It only goes to reinforce my belief that the real impetus towards war is nationalistic b*llsh*t. Patriotism is not nearly enough, it can be a real danger.
As for your career decision KoB (and it's good to see you again after so long), I pray that you will hold to the chivalric principles suggested by your screen-name: protection of widows and orphans, safeguarding the weak and acting towards all with equal justice. May your gods protect you and bring you home safely in mind and body.
P.S. I would be happier listening to hawkish rhetoric if the nations would agree to war crimes tribunals for ALL participants following the end of the nastiness.
I do not believe that any well-informed soldier looks forward to the battlefield or intends to rape or torture. But they do. War bestialised even the best of us.
...
P.S. I would be happier listening to hawkish rhetoric if the nations would agree to war crimes tribunals for ALL participants following the end of the nastiness.
Agree hugely on both these points. I would add that as for stone-throwing at imperialist nations, I don't fault America, and certainly not Britain, for having joined the war, but rather for certain decisions made during it. I'm a big supporter of the FBI and law enforcement in general, for example, but still think a fatal mistake was made at Waco.
The traditional buddhist teaching outlined in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation which is THE text for a couple of sects of Tibetan buddhists says that reflection on suffering is the antidote to the stain of anger.
There is a story of a child and father. The child had an anger problem and was causing all kinds of problems. People in the village complained to the father that he had to do something about his son. So the father told him whenever he was angry to drive a wooden spike into the wall of the barn. So whenever the boy was angry he did just that and it was an opportunity to observe his mind. He became more able to cope with his anger. The father congratulated him on his accomplishment.
He then told his son to pull out all of the metal stakes. The boy did and he found that the barn now had holes all along its side. The father told the boy that even if you control your anger that the damage is already done.
Violence can be refusing to act when one death could save hundreds or thousands....
I sense an emerging agreement. Violence has many forms. Rape, torture, bombing a country back to the Stone Age, are basically the same thing (in another form) as meditating on loving kindness.
Would places like South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan be nearly as free today if not for the benevolent hegemony of the seas by the American navy?
Japan hasn't fared so well from US "hegemony" in the region, especially the residents of Okinawa. There have been many careless, accidental deaths of Japanese citizens there from jeep and helicopter accidents with US personnel at the wheel, and rapes of schoolgirls. You seem like an honorable guy with good intentions (a bit naive, perhaps, but that's what life is about: getting the prescription on the rose-colored glasses adjusted through experience). So I only ask that you do your part to keep things "benevolent". Speak up when you see wrong-doing on the part of our troops. The Buddha's definition of "Right Speech" included speaking up against wrong-doing. And let us know how it goes. I'd be interested in reading your thoughts on the situation once you're in it. Keep your values. Best wishes.
Would places like South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan be nearly as free today if not for the benevolent hegemony of the seas by the American navy?
Japan hasn't fared so well from US "hegemony" in the region, especially the residents of Okinawa. There have been many careless, accidental deaths of Japanese citizens there from jeep and helicopter accidents with US personnel at the wheel, and rapes of schoolgirls. You seem like an honorable guy with good intentions (a bit naive, perhaps, but that's what life is about: getting the prescription on the rose-colored glasses adjusted through experience). So I only ask that you do your part to keep things "benevolent". Speak up when you see wrong-doing on the part of our troops. The Buddha's definition of "Right Speech" included speaking up against wrong-doing. And let us know how it goes. I'd be interested in reading your thoughts on the situation once you're in it. Keep your values. Best wishes.
The Japanese Empire was responsible for the deaths of upwards of 20 million ethnic Asians by some of the most ghastly methods ever. Its sudden defeat at the hands of the Allies was a blessing for the approximately 250,000 Asians murdered each month through. By comparison, America's dominance of the Pacific has been a blessing for Asia. Nothing rose-colored about it.
Also enslavement by the means of capitalism.
Isn't that a bit disingenuous though to those people who actually still ARE enslaved like cattle in modern times, or have escaped that plight? I think there is a big difference between having to work a tough job to afford the bills than having your soul crushed by human bondage.
i'm not sure what the difference is. samsara is still samsara.
human suffering is human suffering.
and the craziest thing is...it is all a product from each and every one of us. this whole thing, this whole existence, this whole reality. it is our doing. the good and the bad.
i have many friends whose only option in life is to join the army or serve the military. there are no jobs for them and in a way lack the resources for a proper education.
to their conditioned existence, the army is the only way out.
this all motivates me to practice on the cushion and in daily life more often. to see that all of this is a result of the individual and the ripples of causes/conditions/effect.
i hope to make more suitable living options for all beings. idealistic? yes, but such is the bodhisattva's path.
Knight, you seem to have completely misinterpreted my point. I'm only saying be on the lookout for misconduct and gratuitous harming of innocent citizens. Where did that "enslavement" quote come from? I didn't say that.
The rose-colored glasses comment was a reiteration of what Tosh and Simon said earlier (" a soldier joins up with the best of intentions").
@Dakini But why stress to be on the lookout for wrong doings by our troops? I believe there are less crimes committed by troops compared to the same age and sex comparisons to civilians... and, the troops are already held at a higher discipline standard than civilians in that the are subject to US and foreign laws as well as the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). The UCMJ in itself holds our troops at higher standards than US laws.
@taiyaki I know what you mean when you say 'their only choice', but in reality it isn't. They could become ordained in a certain religion, they could become travelers, hippies, lead a life of crime, they could maybe borrow money from family/friends or a bank to start a business. The actual list of choices is vast, but I am just being difficult
Yeah thats absolutely true but if they bounded by conditions then that is all they see.
If they had found the dharma then with meditation and dharma they could see other potential.
Again another reason why we should all practice hard. Who else can share the dharma via words and actions. We must all show the way and inspire another way of life.
That is true with regards to inspiring, but you need to understand where the line is between inspiring and preeching IMO. I have one friend I had before I came to Thailand who is again back with me here, he likes to listen and talk about buddhism, sometimes trying to challange me, but he likes a lot of the concepts. He says he wants to meditate but is too lazy. I never really push him, if we talk of the dharma then we do and that is that.
Okay, I'm to the point with this subject of complete exasperation. I'm sure I will be banned for writing this...but at this point I have a sour taste in my mouth from the forum anyway.
Knight, You claim to have studied history, but your education is severely lacking, or perhaps you just decided to be selective in what you decided to learn. To understand history is to understand human behavior, they go hand in hand. Apparently the only behaviors you want to study are the ones that parallel your narrow vantage.
As far as your first 'run in' with real life violence? That isn't anything compared to what you will see if you are ever truly facing combat. When you make the choice between yourself and another human being with a gun pointed at him, I'm sure you will begin to wonder why...He has a fiance, like you...perhaps he is already married, with children....I wonder what his leaders told him he was fighting for? Perhaps he had little choice, unlike you. He bleeds as you do, likely gasps in pain as he is dying and you are the one who has taken his life. What was your cause again?
But, perhaps you've decided because you had your violent beating, that you will have the power in a situation where the bad men will get their come-upin's, even if they got away with it that one time, with you.
Is your choice to become this person because you truly feel this is the answer to the problem? Or are you blinded by your own feeling of vulnerability as well as a want for revenge on the bad people out there who victimize others?
Let me make this about me for a moment... I used to think I was a victim and others should suffer revenge.
I may have not signed up for war, but I have been through violence and horror, none by my choice. Unlike veterans I never made the choice to be put in that type of situation, I had no idea what was waiting for me. I was a child facing vile treatment at the hands of those who society says should care for you. I'm not just talking 'daddy touched me in the wrong spot,' either, though that was one aspect I dealt with. Mental and physical torture for close to a decade, every day of my life. I suffer from chronic PTSD because every day was a war for me.
I could have fought back violently, but what is the point in putting myself in the same category as these people? I do not need to be a beast as well in order to show these monsters that they have done is wrong, nor do I need to dole out revenge on anyone else or target a group or join a violent cause...All I need to know is that I survived and assist those who have lived difficult lives and are suffering...If I can save one child from the pain that I had to face by speaking up, helping with advocacy, volunteering, whatever, then what I lost was not for nothing. Most of the time fighting evil isn't through violent means, which are the means that were evil in the first place, it's through showing compassion and choosing to do the opposite. That doesn't mean I haven't fought in my life more than you can EVER imagine...Every day was a fight for me...for my sanity, for my siblings, for my food, for anything and everything in life as well as making sure I was the target and not someone else.
Beyond that I have fought to be a better person even though everything has been stacked against me...Life didn't become sunshine and puppy dogs because I was able to escape that situation, I was subject to some other pretty terrible things.
To quote your quote: "War is a terrible thing, but not the worst thing. What is worse is the degraded spirit that believes nothing is worth fighting for and who maintains his freedom only because of the efforts of better men than himself."
Love, happiness, and seeing peace is worth fighting for...Knowing I have directly helped save someone from suffering is worth fighting for. No man fought for my freedom, because I was a slave in the US and fought free of that myself. Being a better man doesn't mean taking lives. Defending yourself and fighting for your freedom directly as someone imprisoned, is different than fighting in a war in another country and killing their citizens.
Whether this cause is theoretically sound or not, and you think your government is truthful...or not...The only truth when you kill a man in a war is that you have taken his life. Perhaps you can do that and call yourself a 'Buddhist' still...but who knows if you can still look in the mirror? Meditate in peaceful silence until the memories of what has happened start coming up? I've never killed anyone, but I have this problem just from the violence I've seen...Do you think you will escape without those types of memories?
@MindGate Admittedly I'm coming across fairly passionate about this and I understand your sarcasm, my apologies if it seems as if I want some kind of praise. I don't. I just want to make it clear that sometimes it isn't always about fighting fire with fire, from someone who has experienced and seen a lot of devastation.
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But nonetheless if you don't want to live in a world where you are involved in killing the power is in your hands to be a peaceful vegetarian. We have choices.
Liberty and justice for all.
From many , one.
Incredibly seductive.
btw, The US didn't enter the war against the Japanese in order to avenge Pearl Harbor. It had been looking for an excuse to get into the war, and the bombing of Pearl Harbor provided it. The US was an ally of Nationalist China at the time. The Japanese also invaded Alaska. You didn't really think dropping two atomic bombs on Japan was for revenge over Pearl Harbor, did you?
Wait, "most bombed" in terms of the number of bombs, or the size of the bombs and the amount of damage they caused? If the latter, then maybe Japan?
Just as the world watched Germany arm up in the 1930s, almost with a sense of pity/condescending respect, we are watching China now. Just as in the 1930s, those who raise questions are called "alarmists." And so history repeats itself, or at least mimics itself.
I served six years; the reason I would not rejoin the military now, is that the generals are still having their strings pulled by the foolish architects of the Bad Iraq Idea.
I respect any fellow soldier, and I respect our nation, but I have to be honest, and I hope you'll take it as honesty, and not as a condemnation. We each have a right to choose our path.
If I were still a fighting woman, I'd probably try to go the intelligence route, and get to work on China - though troops will probably be in Pakistan soon enough.
But I cling to the belief that non-violence is extremely powerful, and that any organization that takes away my right to decide, in any given moment, who I will kill or not kill, is not an organization I can belong to. Killing is so extreme, that it absolutely has to be your own decision, and only your own decision, if you have any hope at all of it being a justified killing. And almost no killing is ever justified.
/sarcasm/
The Pacific Island nation where they ran the test a-bombs? (Desperately grasping at straws)
No, GERMANY! My final entry into the contest, Germany!
Guys, I don't see our nation in the good old US as being better or worse than any other, all things considered. As a nation that had the resources to become a superpower we certainly stomped on enough people over the years in our struggle against the other superpowers and in the push and shove of world domination.
We were taught to cherish certain principles, spelled out best in the Superman Salute to America. We claim not to put up with governments lying to their citizens, we claim to hold the rule of law as inviolate, and the "American Way" is just another way of saying a democracy where each citizen gets one vote.
So how we doing, now that we don't have the Evil Soviet Empire to provide the bad example of what not to do? Truth? The government of course lies to us over and over, or just keeps its dirty laundry secret, like any other government in the world. Justice? The rule of law now means one law for the rich and powerful and a different set of laws for everyone else, and the laws don't even apply to "enemies of the state" and again that's just like most governments out there. And democracy? One citizen, one vote? That's always been a pipe dream, and today our politicians openly pass laws trying to keep as many people as possible from voting (at least poor people, who are likely to vote against them) and everyone yawns.
Even the final refuge of righteousness, "At least we don't torture people!" has turned out in the end to be just smoke and mirrors. When called on it, politicians take refuge in semantics (It's only torture if you make them bleed) or expediency (Hey, it works and they deserve it) but they know in the end, it doesn't matter because for the scared voters, it all boils down to the definition of "people", not torture. We don't torture people, but those terrorists aren't really people, are they?
Anyway, that's my rant for today. How I drug Superman into this mess escapes me right now. And there are some nations that seem to have avoided some of this mess, so I'm not saying your particular government behaves like ours. Let them become world powers, though, and see if they don't.
But I think you need to remove those rose tinted spectacles; modern wars may not be fought to increase land area Empires, but none-the-less, wars are still fought with money and business in mind. Politicians may justify these wars by taking the moral high ground; Bush even cited Bible references to justify the invasion of Iraq (I was there in 1990/91 when his father was in charge); but really, it has very little to do with 'right'.
You'll notice little or nothing gets done in World trouble spots which has no economic interest to the West.
Saying all that, I think the US and the UK are getting a bit tired of these pointless wars, so hopefully you'll do your service during a quieter period. When I joined up in 1986, we had the Cold War, which was great in the way it wasn't a 'shoot 'em up' type of war; the only active service I did in the early days was Northern Ireland against the Republican terrorists (though some called them freedom fighters). Then it was the Gulf War, then Bosnia (three tours), and then Kosovo during the initial entry after we'd lived in some wet and miserable field in Macedonia for months.
I resigned from the army just as Gulf War 2 and Afghanistan was kicking off; I'd had enough of rough living and troubled places.
But it was a good experience; I'm not anti-military; we need our armed forces, but I do wish they were used more wisely and in a more humanitarian manner, rather than being used for political and financial motives.
Well frankly I don't put much stock in "world opinion." It has been so helpful after all in drawing attention to the ethnic cleansing of minority religious groups in Egypt and Iraq, and was oh so instrumental in bringing to light the famine/genocide committed against the Chinese by their own government in the 60s. (sarcasm end)
How has America "taken over the world" or even come close? What colonies are we extracting all the natural resources from? Do you really believe hegemony by Russia or China or Iran would be so benevolent?
And @ Tosh,
Thank you for your service. And to the rest of the prior servicemembers. I am a big anglophile and hold a very dear spot in my heart for Canada and Britain from my travels.
In part of her blog she explained that she was at a restaurant, well a type of one anyway. Outside was an old deactivated bomb turned into a kind of memorial with a head stone inscripted. She said that the owner of the restaurant came out and stood next to it, smilled with a huge grin tapping it and said 'Ah-mare-ri-ca' twice. She then went on to say that most people and most americans do not even know of that war that went on, a war that still causes death and suffering today.
American nationals are highly advised to inform their embassey before entering Laos as it is so dangerous due to unexploded bombs and just the country itself.
Peace will only breed more peace.
Conditional peace will breed conditional peace.
If killing is necessary then do it with an open heart. Then shed the tears because we only kill brothers and sisters. Make that pain boil in your heart and let such pain refine you so that only compassion reigns.
As a buddhist killing is unskillful. But if one can open their hearts completely then kill all you want.
But then again you'd only be killing parts of yourself.
Delusion. Ignorance. Greed. Aversion. Lust. If you were to kill these then what a person you'd be.
Israel and Palestine is a direct result of WW2, so was the trouble in the Balkans. There's probably many more.
And of course, WW2 is a direct consequence of WW1.
He has fathered two children to two different women; but is not a father. He drinks heavily, he's aggressive, fights in pubs, and is leading a really unskilful life.
Does he suffer with a post traumatic stress disorder? Who knows?
An interesting tid bit is that more soldiers who served in the Falklands War have committed suicide, than the actual 250 (or so) who actually died there in action.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1758301.stm
It's entirely likely fewer people an all sides--civilian and military--would have died had the war been allowed to rage on. I do understand that at the time, people were sick of the war and death, and under enormous pressure to end it.
I'm reminded, though, of the Waco example: the Feds had accused Koresh of abusing children, in response to which the Feds ended up burning 21 children to death just to end the "problem."
No matter how much suffering is taking place, if your solution brings equal or more suffering, you can't say it's a solution, and you can't say it's right.
As a callow youth and still an idealist, I believed that the Blue Helmets (UN troops) would be the solution but history shows that they have behaved in appalling ways as well - e.g. Haiti or Bosnia.
Ma\ny years ago, I met an elderly man who had been a colonel in the British Army, fighting in Cyprus and Kenya among other theatres. After he had completed his service, he said, he had 'retrained' and became a Catholic priest. I asked him what linked his two careers. His reply was "a passion for justice."
I believe that many a soldier joins up with the very best intentions. I do not believe that any well-informed soldier looks forward to the battlefield or intends to rape or torture. But they do. War bestialised even the best of us.
It is a pity that this thread has degenerated into stone throwing at imperialist nations. We all live in glass houses and both the British and US empires have indulged in war crimes and genocide. It only goes to reinforce my belief that the real impetus towards war is nationalistic b*llsh*t. Patriotism is not nearly enough, it can be a real danger.
As for your career decision KoB (and it's good to see you again after so long), I pray that you will hold to the chivalric principles suggested by your screen-name: protection of widows and orphans, safeguarding the weak and acting towards all with equal justice. May your gods protect you and bring you home safely in mind and body.
P.S. I would be happier listening to hawkish rhetoric if the nations would agree to war crimes tribunals for ALL participants following the end of the nastiness.
Also enslavement by the means of capitalism.
I'm not saying it is wrong. I am saying violence isn't just physical.
Sure people no longer fight. No need to fight when peoples pockets are full.
When the foundation itself is built on the cause/conditions of peace then peace will reign.
If the causes and conditions are build on war for the justification of peace. Then such peace will fall apart when conditions and causes are ripe.
Peace if honest and true can never be defeated. Suffering strengthens resolve for peace.
If this can be done on an individual level then it can be done collectively.
I firmly believe and know that we are inherently cooperative and have the capacity to be compassionate.
Violence is only used by those who are ignorant and reactive based on their anger, jealousy and greed.
Peace for oneself and the collective is the highest goal. All it takes is firm resolve that peace is worth it and conflict isn't.
There is a story of a child and father. The child had an anger problem and was causing all kinds of problems. People in the village complained to the father that he had to do something about his son. So the father told him whenever he was angry to drive a wooden spike into the wall of the barn. So whenever the boy was angry he did just that and it was an opportunity to observe his mind. He became more able to cope with his anger. The father congratulated him on his accomplishment.
He then told his son to pull out all of the metal stakes. The boy did and he found that the barn now had holes all along its side. The father told the boy that even if you control your anger that the damage is already done.
Violence has many forms.
Rape, torture, bombing a country back to the Stone Age, are basically the same thing (in another form) as meditating on loving kindness.
(that was sarcastic, sorry!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Japan (see "controversy" section)
human suffering is human suffering.
and the craziest thing is...it is all a product from each and every one of us.
this whole thing, this whole existence, this whole reality. it is our doing. the good and the bad.
i have many friends whose only option in life is to join the army or serve the military.
there are no jobs for them and in a way lack the resources for a proper education.
to their conditioned existence, the army is the only way out.
this all motivates me to practice on the cushion and in daily life more often. to see that all of this is a result of the individual and the ripples of causes/conditions/effect.
i hope to make more suitable living options for all beings. idealistic? yes, but such is the bodhisattva's path.
The rose-colored glasses comment was a reiteration of what Tosh and Simon said earlier (" a soldier joins up with the best of intentions").
If they had found the dharma then with meditation and dharma they could see other potential.
Again another reason why we should all practice hard. Who else can share the dharma via words and actions. We must all show the way and inspire another way of life.
I'm sure I will be banned for writing this...but at this point I have a sour taste in my mouth from the forum anyway.
Knight,
You claim to have studied history, but your education is severely lacking, or perhaps you just decided to be selective in what you decided to learn. To understand history is to understand human behavior, they go hand in hand. Apparently the only behaviors you want to study are the ones that parallel your narrow vantage.
As far as your first 'run in' with real life violence? That isn't anything compared to what you will see if you are ever truly facing combat. When you make the choice between yourself and another human being with a gun pointed at him, I'm sure you will begin to wonder why...He has a fiance, like you...perhaps he is already married, with children....I wonder what his leaders told him he was fighting for? Perhaps he had little choice, unlike you. He bleeds as you do, likely gasps in pain as he is dying and you are the one who has taken his life. What was your cause again?
But, perhaps you've decided because you had your violent beating, that you will have the power in a situation where the bad men will get their come-upin's, even if they got away with it that one time, with you.
Is your choice to become this person because you truly feel this is the answer to the problem? Or are you blinded by your own feeling of vulnerability as well as a want for revenge on the bad people out there who victimize others?
Let me make this about me for a moment... I used to think I was a victim and others should suffer revenge.
I may have not signed up for war, but I have been through violence and horror, none by my choice. Unlike veterans I never made the choice to be put in that type of situation, I had no idea what was waiting for me. I was a child facing vile treatment at the hands of those who society says should care for you. I'm not just talking 'daddy touched me in the wrong spot,' either, though that was one aspect I dealt with. Mental and physical torture for close to a decade, every day of my life. I suffer from chronic PTSD because every day was a war for me.
I could have fought back violently, but what is the point in putting myself in the same category as these people? I do not need to be a beast as well in order to show these monsters that they have done is wrong, nor do I need to dole out revenge on anyone else or target a group or join a violent cause...All I need to know is that I survived and assist those who have lived difficult lives and are suffering...If I can save one child from the pain that I had to face by speaking up, helping with advocacy, volunteering, whatever, then what I lost was not for nothing. Most of the time fighting evil isn't through violent means, which are the means that were evil in the first place, it's through showing compassion and choosing to do the opposite. That doesn't mean I haven't fought in my life more than you can EVER imagine...Every day was a fight for me...for my sanity, for my siblings, for my food, for anything and everything in life as well as making sure I was the target and not someone else.
Beyond that I have fought to be a better person even though everything has been stacked against me...Life didn't become sunshine and puppy dogs because I was able to escape that situation, I was subject to some other pretty terrible things.
To quote your quote: "War is a terrible thing, but not the worst thing. What is worse is the degraded spirit that believes nothing is worth fighting for and who maintains his freedom only because of the efforts of better men than himself."
Love, happiness, and seeing peace is worth fighting for...Knowing I have directly helped save someone from suffering is worth fighting for. No man fought for my freedom, because I was a slave in the US and fought free of that myself. Being a better man doesn't mean taking lives. Defending yourself and fighting for your freedom directly as someone imprisoned, is different than fighting in a war in another country and killing their citizens.
Whether this cause is theoretically sound or not, and you think your government is truthful...or not...The only truth when you kill a man in a war is that you have taken his life. Perhaps you can do that and call yourself a 'Buddhist' still...but who knows if you can still look in the mirror? Meditate in peaceful silence until the memories of what has happened start coming up? I've never killed anyone, but I have this problem just from the violence I've seen...Do you think you will escape without those types of memories?
:bowdown:
Admittedly I'm coming across fairly passionate about this and I understand your sarcasm, my apologies if it seems as if I want some kind of praise. I don't. I just want to make it clear that sometimes it isn't always about fighting fire with fire, from someone who has experienced and seen a lot of devastation.