Advice on letting go?

leahnc

Wondered if you all could give me some advice:

Im coming through a major depressive episode that landed me on Celexa/Klonopin about 6 months ago. Ive always had anxiety & I posted about it another forum. Anyway after watching some documentaries on space, time, metaphysics, my curiousity led me to the internet & I stumbled upon "Solipsism". Id never heard of it before, and the minute I read the definition of it I spiraled into intense anxiety. In an instant my whole belief system I held for 30+ years (Christianity) was pulled out from under me! I became very skeptical of the universe, why we are here, how we got here... I tried to pray to God, I went to church but I kept questioning everything. After a few months of extreme anxiety, I ended up in a Psychiatrists office for antidepressant medication. I still have good days & bad days. I still spend a lot of time questioning the "big picture" I intellectualize, I philosophize....

Im trying to embrace a belief system (buddhism, christianity) but Im skeptical of everything. Where we came from, if there is an afterlife, Im fearful & skeptical & doubt everything. Ugh I thought I had it all figured out - I didnt realize how deep my faith in God was until it was gone? I was naive I guess? I never knew there were so many belief systems, opinions, possibilities. I miss the blind faith I once had.

I feel better & not as depressed on medication - but I want to work through the issues Im still having (mainly skepticism) but Im having difficulty being open & receptive to growth? I want to let go....
Thank you!

Tosh

I think it's very difficult to just say, "Right I'm going to let go" and then go and do it. It doesn't seem to work like that, not for me anyway.

And it's a slow process, not easy either.

I found it best to take small steps in the right direction; I would suggest that you start a regular meditation process and read and practise mindfulness; none of this is 'religious', so it shouldn't affect any Christian beliefs you may (or may not) develop.

Also, practising compassion is hugely important, IMO; this helps with our sense of self. When we focus purely on ourselves, we tend to worry a lot (about ourselves). Helping others feels good and gives us a better perspective on life.

Also, on the first page of Depression for Dummies, (Or is it the Idiot's Guide to Depression?), it advises that we help others.

I hope some of this has helped you.

ownerof1000oddsocks

You're trying to embrace a belief system, and let go of another, right?

It looks to me like you could be in the process of grieving. You've lost that familiar place and no longer have a sense of direction. I can offer you some cheap advice like, 'don't panic' and 'this is perfectly normal', although I can't fully comprehend what you're going through behind this screen, so for that reason I'm hesitant at this point.

The big mystery is... well, a big mystery. That's what gives it meaning, but it's not your job to find out. Instead of racking my brains, I usually go read some books. You may find some answers that make you feel more curious and excited, plus You'll be in the same boat as opposed to feeling isolated (Perhaps change the channel to something that doesn't remind you of solipsism if that's a trigger for your problem?).

Hope that helps.

seeker242

A Zen Master once said "I can't tell you how to let go. You learn how to do that when you practice meditation." Then he compared it to teaching someone how to ride a bicycle and explained that your really can't tell someone how to ride a bicycle. In order to learn how to ride a bicycle, the only way is to get on the bicycle. In this context, he meant that the only way to learn letting go is to sit down, focus on your breathing and when something come up, practice letting go and returning to the breath. When you let go and return to the breath, you are learning how to let go. You're practicing "letting go". And the more you practice, the better you get at it.

possibilities

A belief SYSTEM is not that important. What you do on a daily basis is. If you do the right thing each day, in practical terms, you will find that a theoretical structure for what you do is not a necessity.

If you look at the basic behavior guide lines in Buddhism and Christianity, you'll know what is right or wrong. That should be all you need for guidance.
Once you feel like you're on steady ground, you can refine.

Go back to basics, they surpass "religion".

AMH

Hey big hugs first of all.

I am wondering if you have heard of the 'dark night of the soul'? It is a Christian thing (but I will state up front I feel in many ways i am both and go back and forth without a conflict). St John of the Cross writes about this in some instructions for monastic comunities. There is a point of spiritual development where you feel so separate from God, more lost and alone than you ever could imagine with an earlier faith on your journey. Mother Theresa is said to have struggled for many many years with this. I have her journals and the St JOhn books on my nook I have been meaning to read.

So I agree with letting yourself grieve, being open to whatever path comes next for you spiritually and keep on meditating. Shorter sessions are generally better than super long ones when you are dealing with depression and other brain chemistry issues. And many times just focusing on what is in front of you, that the buddhas and christian saints and mystics all had to get dressed, eat food, bath, work at what was in front of them but also make time for whatever gave them joy as well.

taiyaki

Letting go isn't something you do.

It just happens.

Just like the thoughts in your head come and go. Spontaneously arising and falling.

All things that are experienceable are the same.

So start cultivating loving kindness for yourself and just watch how all things come and go!

Hubris

Letting go isn't something you do.

It just happens.

Just like the thoughts in your head come and go. Spontaneously arising and falling.

All things that are experienceable are the same.

So start cultivating loving kindness for yourself and just watch how all things come and go!

I respectfully disagree. "Sometimes" it just happens. Not always. In the event of someone's death we eventually "let go" as time passes. Even if we retain fond memories.

Other times we are faced with circumstances over which we have little or no control, and thus we must reconcile ourselves to the outcome by making a conscious effort to let go. If we resist we suffer.

taiyaki

there really isn't a "thing" to let go of, nor is there a "thing" letting go. thus it is an impersonal process. even if you project meaning onto it, it is still impersonal.

even the conscious letting go is a form of grasping.

without correct wisdom there is holding. so i take back my previous comment. you must in essence go the root of the issue. apply the wisdom of the buddha and out of such clear seeing one will automatically let go. because there is no one to let go, and no thing to let go of.

seeker242

because there is no one to let go, and no thing to let go of.

But, but, but, before you can realize that, you have to let go!

leahnc

Thanks for the excellent advice everyone :-) I love the advice I receive on this board.

ownerof1000oddsocks - I never even thought I might be grieving. That makes perfect sense.. In fact that is how if feels, but I never put two & two together?

I think I will take a break from my deep introspection for a while? Perhaps if I lighten my load a bit I will feel better? Ive been carrying this baggage for way to long. Ive been reading, researching, ruminating trying to find "the answers" I have painfully realized that I wont find any answers outside of myself. Wow what a wake up call.

Thanks again

possibilities

there really isn't a "thing" to let go of, nor is there a "thing" letting go. thus it is an impersonal process. even if you project meaning onto it, it is still impersonal.

@taiyaki -- it is not an impersonal process for those mere mortals who are struggling with their EMOTIONS, me included. I have read many of your responses and they always sound mechanical, lacking a human touch. I just wonder whether this is really the Buddhist ideal -- to come across as cold....?

AMH

This is somewhat related to my period of 'not reading' where I purposefully did not study anything in Buddhism, just sat and practiced mindfullness as much as you can with 3 kiddos. There is a middle way to it all, but many of us tend to over-intellectualize rather than under. I still feel odd that i don't know a lot of the sutras or other terms and study knowledge

taiyaki

@possibilities

the most compassionate thing you can do for someone is to directly point to what is true.

and it is an impersonal process that we make personal thus we suffer. when we let go of making it so personal then we have the chance to have composure. this is true compassion towards ourselves and others. the only way this is possible is by seeing wisdom of (four noble truths, dependent origination, and the three marks). until then suffer and suffer and suffer and why am i still suffering help me.

beep beep boop bop.

possibilities

@taiyaki How do you make the personal impersonal? Watching what arises and letting go does not *solve* any issues, it's more like ignoring issues, ignoring the problem - then you get cold and impersonal.
If everything is considered impersonal, how do you explain a person's feelings? Are they to be omitted so a person will not suffer?

You said:"until then suffer and suffer and suffer and why am i still suffering help me." -- Are you mocking those who struggle?

I agree about being direct. Thus these questions.

misecmisc1

@possibilities - the reason of suffering is attachment or aversion. even aversion is also a kind of attachment. the thing which we say personal, is actually a thought process of grasping or attachment towards a thing or person etc. But in reality, there is you, attachment and the thing. Removing attachment leaves you and the thing. Now the question comes who are you - to realize this wisdom is needed - i am not saying about any particular religion, but in general - the wisdom is attained from those who have attained enlightenment. Study them and try to understand the reality.

Moreover if there is a problem, then you crying or being angry at it does not help. If instead you stay calm at it (this is not being cold or ignoring the situation, rather understanding the situation correctly), then you may analyze the situation and come to its solution or at least have the clear viewing of things as they are. This if will not make the situation better, will also not make it worse.

misecmisc1

@leahnc - coming to your question regarding letting go. what i suggest is to develop wisdom and clear understanding following the teachings of enlightened persons. then you will clearly see that there is no you, no thing and consequently no you letting go anything and automatically no thing as letting go even. what you think about you is a thought pattern, what you think about the thing is also a thought pattern, the attachment is a feeling arising in a thought pattern. when you see things as they really are, this attachment will automatically go, so no need of letting go will even arise.

seeker242

Watching what arises and letting go does not *solve* any issues

It does give you insight into impermanence, which allows you to let go more and more. When you realize that feelings, whatever they may be, are completely empty and impermanent, there is then no longer any need or desire to hold on to them or push them away. They are no longer considered to be "very significant". No holding on and no pushing away equals much less suffering. Id does help solve the issue of believing that your feelings have some kind of permanence.

How do you make the personal impersonal?

I don't think you can "make" it that way. That is just something that arises out of practice.

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you the five aggregates & the five clinging-aggregates. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "Whatever feeling — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the feeling clinging-aggregate."

Letting go solves the problem of "clinging to the feeling aggregate". But you can't "make" yourself do it. That is just something that arises out of practice.

taiyaki

@possibilities

here is how you do it. you start to see your 6 senses. arising thought, falling thought. arising sensation, falling sensation. arising smell, falling smell. arising taste, falling taste. arising sight, color, form, shape, falling etc.

then you start to see how you add onto this process. you add judgements, reactions, positive/negative. you add i like this, i don't think this, etc.

thus you see how all of that "stuff" just causes frustration and suffering. so you're preoccupied with your suffering and you cannot deal with the issue at hand.

so lets say you have a problem at work. say for instance someone is really rude to you. they aren't just rude they are habitually rude to you.

so since you have no meditation practice, nor do you have any wisdom you react accordingly based on your conditions. so you react back by becoming upset and then from there you react via speech, action, or thought. this is the normal situation that most humans find themselves.

now you've done a little bit of meditation and you've wised up a little bit. now you start to see this person and you don't take what happens personally. you start seeing how this person really is. the rudeness wasn't necessarily directed towards you but rather is an outcome of various conditions coming together for that person. because you can see your reactions of negativity/aversion and see that all that is added after the fact you can now RESPOND verses react. so now you have the option to act compassionately and say ask his/her if something is bothering them, etc. so you can be more practical and caring without making a big fuss about it.


when we start to see the impersonal process then we can open our hearts. wisdom does sound cold, but it is the ground for equanimity. such equanimity conditions joy when happiness is met. and such equanimity conditions love. and when we see suffering compassion arises. but the root is in equanimity and learning with mindfulness to see what is really here.

i am not mocking those who suffer. for their suffering is real and the greatest teacher. i suffer a lot, thus i have a lot to say about how to deal with it and how to overcome it.

hope this helps.

wisdom if understood and existentially experienced should lead to less clinging and a deep letting go. when we start to see how thing work in the mind/reality then we open up to compassion and love naturally. not some kind of cheap emotion but true compassion action moment to moment.

taiyaki

also this isn't about ignoring the personal. it is seeing that it isn't necessarily and it always leads to suffering. i cannot convince you that the personal judgements and personal clinging/craving lead to suffering. you must see this directly in your own life.

once we deal with our suffering, we can then actively help others. for some this help may manifest by giving kind words. for other it might be sharing the dharma. or it might be a smile. these are not action done by "me" but rather conditional manifestations based on various causes/conditions of the past.

so in one sense you can start conditioning yourself to be a more positive person, thus have positive reactions. or you can just be completely mindful of both your habitual reactions and the responses that you want to project outwards.

thus mindfulness literally becomes the tool for transforming our reality/mind/situation. it gives us the pause that is needed to gain composure which in heaven or hell. it also opens us up to the tender spot in the heart that is the awakened heart within all of us.

choiceless awareness is in my opinion letting go itself. because it is wisdom and the function of wisdom. with such awareness you start to see that nothing can last when you shine the light onto something. for instance find me a thought. though thoughts vividly appear as if they were real and tangible, but upon examination you cannot find a single thought. thus empty, thus you don't need to grasp so hard.

taiyaki

so this is the wisdom aspect to letting go.

but we must understand that we have to give the space and feed the ground prior to letting go. for instance if we cannot be mindful because there is a disturbance in our lives say like a death of a friend then we cannot be mindful. acknowledge and just sit with it all and mourn. attend to your sadness. honor everything that appears as the teacher.

then when everything is settled, right then you can start insight practice and the cultivation of the four immeasurable. most of us just need the space so that all our repressed shit can come forward. and then we learn how we react towards it all. in a way most of us just needs the space to allow everything to be as it is.

and after we recognize and accept then we can investigate using wisdom.

and out of the consequence of recognizing, accepting and investigating...letting go occurs.

still_learning

Maybe it doesn't matter if God exists or not. Technically God can't be proven to either exist or not exist.

Maybe it doesn't matter if Buddhism is a good way to live your life.

Maybe it doesn't matter if Solipsism is correct or not.

But regardless of all that, you still know the basics of how to be a good person.

possibilities

@misecmisc1 , @seeker242 and @taiyaki --- THANK you for taking the time to respond. I will need to chew on all that for a bit - and I'll let you know....
Hopefully not hijacking this thread (?)... You all provided thoughtful answers so I hope others will benefit as well.

Thanks :-)

Vastmind

@Taiyaki...excellent break down.

Epicurus

Leanhc : ask yourself, where did you faith in anything come from to begin with?

I was raised Catholic and I certainly don't remember ever having a choice in the matter.

Ask yourself if you really NEED to believe in a religion in order to live your life, or if, like a lot of things in life it was just something you were taught to do.

Solipsism? I've been there. But eventually you figure it out and it's pretty simple. It's a matter of choice. You can choose to believe you can never really know anything from your vantage point, or believe you can. Believing you can is the only way for ANYONE to maintain their sanity So don't sweat it. All the great minds believed they could. And most of the not-so-great minds do too.

What were you getting out of Christianity that is lost? Jesus' teachings are still valid aren't they? Jesus existed....so what was lost exactly?

leahnc

Thank you for the replies to my post!

To answer Epicuris's question about what I lost from Christianity? Initially I lost everything - or so I thought? When I started to question God's existence, the world & universe felt scary and I felt all alone. Ive had anxiety since childhood, so Ive never trusted myself. As a child a relationship with Jesus/God made me feel safe & helped me make sense of the world (why we are here, where we came from. death) The anxiety I have is in the form of OCD. I obsess over the unknown & uncertain. I was a very curious child & a very deep thinker!

Anyway, as hard as I tried to prove solipsism wrong, I couldnt. Id be having conversations with friends or family & question whether we were sharing the experience? If it all was in my mind? On top of being stressed out, I started to label myself weird, paranoid, delusional, depressed, anxious, obsessive! When you attach such negativity to yourself, you feel like you'll never get better. I felt so broken!

I actually started to believe it to be a fact & with God and others stripped from my life I felt alone & forced to think for myself & trust myself. I couldnt lean on God anymore. I tried to but I couldnt! I tried very hard to reconcile my belief in God, but I couldnt even prove that he existed?

I have since developed critical thinking skills and lean towards Buddhism. I now accept that solipsism is a possibility? Solipsism freaked me out at first, but eventually I started to be grateful for having people in my life (whether imagined or real) I accept that I will never know with 100% certainty all the deep questions that cross my mind? I have to learn to let go & not cling or reject anything! My obsessive nature causes me to search & search for answers. Sometimes the questions take me down the rabbit hole as did solipsism. Im learning!!!

lamaramadingdong

May I suggest Taking the Leap: Freeing Ourselves from Old Habits and Fears by Pema Chodron.

leahnc

Thank you! I went to Amazon & read an excerpt from the book you mentioned....Looks like a book I could really benefit from!!

mithril

I would just like to caution you that if you start reading on depression or various self-help books the emotions you experience may actually (temporarily) worsen, since those books tend to suggest how one feels in such and such a situation. Its like when were in a room with a confident and relaxed person, we may feel more confident and relaxed too - while those books describe the more negative emotions (anxiety etc) and thus we may get slightly pulled into that direction =]

Otherwise, remember the sense of having things figured out? This is not something that is necessarily dependent on the belief system you will chose to adhere to, but something that develops when one knows a situation (like you believed in God, it was something certain). In Buddhism, we shake our grounds until we know as many experiences (emotional or outside) as possible, thus we can rest like that regardless what happens to us. When you can fully accept an experience, this is how it will probably feel like^^

possibilities

.... in reality, there is you, attachment and the thing. Removing attachment leaves you and the thing.

@misecmisc1 , @seeker242 and @taiyaki --- I wonder if either of you might want to comment on what follows. (@taiyaki I haven't had enough quiet time to go over your responses again , but what I'm going to say will also apply to your thoughts, since my concerns were not addressed - or I didn't understand?)
-------------

"Removing attachment leaves you and the thing."

Removing attachment still leaves feelings. AFAIK, 'removing attachment' only means that you are not going to cling to a certain idea and outcome. If you do, it'll make you unhappy when things don't pan out. I get that.

Where I'm lost is the claim one needs to evolve from what's personal (feelings) to what's impersonal (disconnect).
I have a sense that the responses I received do not really address this issue, and I'm also not sure whether this is a Zen "thing" ... since it seems that those who I understand are following Zen are also the ones who propose that a person is best served by disconnecting themselves from potentially painful situations. (?)

It seems radical to me, not the middle way. It seems like brain washing where you have to deny feelings, get so detached that nothing matters. If you have disturbing, sad situations, detach. If you have happy situations, detach because things can turn sour and you'll get hurt.
For the occasional "big hurt" i can see the value of stepping back and distancing oneself (and it works), but at this point I would shy away from making it my life's goal to detach myself from reality as I live it and more or less enjoy it (good or bad, often it balances out) - just to dull my experience to a point where nothing can upset me. IOW: I cherish my feelings. :-)

Of course one can create an emotionally deflated situation and call it the real world, but what if it's OK to have these ups and downs. They are part of the path, part of action and reaction, since none of us can plan things ahead.

I value the basics of Buddhism, the tools it gives a person to manage one's life in a thoughtful, quiet and sophisticated manner, but currently I cannot reconcile myself with the idea of not letting anything affect me, good or bad. It sounds like conditioning oneself to a minimalist extreme, and not like living to the fullest.

I've had these concerns for many months and nothing I have read so far has given me reasons to change my opinion. At the same time it feels like running into a wall, not being able to assess "feelings and Buddhism".

taiyaki

the bodhisattva completely feels suffering. whether this suffering is of their own or of anothers. because they feel the suffering fully, they instead of being consumed in it and reactive...they respond with compassion because they have the wisdom that all things are empty of inherent existence.

this lacking of inherent existence is because all things dependently originate.

thus the suffering that is mine or yours, really is just "suffering". it isn't owned by one person, nor can we say that is has any personal attribute to it. again because it lacks any kind of inherent characteristic or essence.

so whether a thought or an emotion. all of these things are empty. thus to feel sadness fully is the point. to feel happiness fully is the point. to completely feel everything as it is without pushing or pulling.

thus emotions come and go. the life span of an emotion is about 1.5 minutes. we keep emotions going by constantly thinking and creating narratives, clinging to thoughts that in essence bring up the feelings in the body. but when there is no clinging or rather when this process is seen through then emotions come and go relatively quickly.

so buddhism isn't about detachment. though it may seem like a nihilistic form of religion where all that is good is abandoned and we lose our humanity. hahaha.

buddhism is about radical acceptance and investigation. it isn't the sadness that brings suffering. it isn't the happiness that brings suffering. suffering is cause by grasping and ignorance.

we don't let go of anything. letting go is a natural consequence of wisdom and direct contemplation of the truths proposed by the buddha, which in essence is how reality is.




so no need to remove attachments. no need to let go. just wise up and start living your life in a more practical and in a more reasonably sane way.

an emotion in its purity has no story. though a story can cause an emotion. as an emotion is just a thought being manifest in the body. an emotion has a life of its own. it arises based on cause/conditions and it falls when those causes/conditions are gone. of course you can keep manifesting the causes/conditions for such emotion to stay longer but ultimately the emotion has absolutely no inherent existence. thus the emotion will pop in and out of existence.

thus to understand this fully is to feel completely everything. the sadness, the joy, the happiness, the fear, the jealousy, the anger, etc. everything is felt and everything is completely valid.

here is where most buddhists get into and stuck with emotions:

they see emotions as objects that are seen with mindfulness, thus they are "no self".
while this is true this leads for most people a detachment and in a way a running away from emotions.

truly what we must be do is to see that when there is an arising feeling in the body. it is merely a myriad of various sensations coming together then our minds project "anger, happiness, etc" onto such sensations.

this is a more correct way in viewing emotions. thus deconstructing emotions as arising sensations, rather than fully blown anger or happiness. this isn't a denial but rather an investigation on what truly emotions are. (various sensations coming together + thought projection) or (12 link chain of dependent origination).

so a bodhisattva is a being who realizes the empty nature of all things, including emotions. thus they can both feel completely the emotion and not be caught up in it. best of both worlds. thus they can either abide in the feeling or do something about it.

hope this helps. i have to sleep so i rushed. so sorry if its confusing.

taiyaki

also its important to note that by empty i am not asserting nihilism.

emptiness is the lack of something. it isn't asserting eternalism or nihilism. emptiness is beyond all. emptiness also isn't a thing but a lack of such thing.

thus we can see how thoughts vividly appear, yet are empty of any kind of inherent existence. thus they are like magical displays. this is not to say they do not exist (nihilism), nor do they really exist (eternalism). emptiness is neither, nor both, nor one or the other. truly emptiness points to a freedom from all views or grasping.

so one must really know the ground for what emptiness is, even on an intellectual level.


the ungraspability of all phenomena = emptiness = absolute
thus everything dependently originates = causality = relative

this is key and must not be overlooked.

misecmisc1

my understanding of Buddha's teachings: ignorance starts the chain of conditioned genesis or dependent origination, leading to occurrence of events relative to its conditions being existing, leading to delusion about self and everything.

experiencing wisdom leads to removal of ignorance - shows emptiness of things - ends this dependent origination or chain of conditions - leads to experience of absolute reality.

taiyaki

Ignorance conditions everything else in the chain and the chain conditions ignorance. So its not correct to look at d.o. In a linear fashion. So even dependent origination is interdepent.

I don't believe that wisdom gives freedom beyond the chain link. Suffering was never intrinsic to reality. Thus ignorance when turned into clear understanding conditions other factors like bodhicitta.

There is a twelve link chain of dependent origination that conditions after wisdom.

The buddha still had a body and still made contact with reality based of cause/conditions. Just this contact gave no arise to suffering becauae he had clear wisdom of reality as it is. Dependent origination still applies.

The absolute is the relative and vice versa.

seeker242

.... in reality, there is you, attachment and the thing. Removing attachment leaves you and the thing.

@misecmisc1 , @seeker242 and @taiyaki --- I wonder if either of you might want to comment on what follows. (@taiyaki I haven't had enough quiet time to go over your responses again , but what I'm going to say will also apply to your thoughts, since my concerns were not addressed - or I didn't understand?)
-------------

"Removing attachment leaves you and the thing."

Removing attachment still leaves feelings. AFAIK,

Yes they do. Feeling are a sense impression of the mind, AKA a mental object. Just like the eyes, if you are not attached to what you are looking at, you can still see it of course.


'removing attachment' only means that you are not going to cling to a certain idea and outcome and what you are feeling as well If you do, it'll make you unhappy when things don't pan out. I get that.

Where I'm lost is the claim one needs to evolve from what's personal (feelings) to what's impersonal (disconnect).
I have a sense that the responses I received do not really address this issue, and I'm also not sure whether this is a Zen "thing" ... since it seems that those who I understand are following Zen are also the ones who propose that a person is best served by disconnecting themselves from potentially painful situations. (?)

IMO, the disconnection naturally comes from the deepening of the understanding of the 3 marks of existence. and feelings, just like any other sense impression, bear these 3 marks. However, like I said before, you can't MAKE yourself understand these things. That naturally arises out of actual practice. "disconnecting themselves from potentially painful situations." in the Buddhist sense, means to realize the true nature of sense impressions. To realize they bear the 3 marks.

It seems radical to me, not the middle way. It seems like brain washing where you have to deny feelings, get so detached that nothing matters.

That is a common misconception regarding "detachment". It is not a denial, it is an acknowledgment. An acknowledgement of the 3 marks. The Buddha was very "detached". However, he did NOT hold the view that "nothing matters". So, according to the truth of it all, that is a misunderstanding. If that were true, then even the Buddha would have held that "nothing matters", but that was not the case at all. The idea that non-attachment equals "nothing matter" is not correct. The Buddha called that "wrong view"


If you have disturbing, sad situations, detach. If you have happy situations, detach because things can turn sour and you'll get hurt.
For the occasional "big hurt" i can see the value of stepping back and distancing oneself (and it works), but at this point I would shy away from making it my life's goal to detach myself from reality as I live it and more or less enjoy it (good or bad, often it balances out) - just to dull my experience to a point where nothing can upset me. IOW: I cherish my feelings. :-)

Do you enjoy being upset? Do you think not being upset is dull? That is not what the Buddha taught.:) If you were happy all the time, would that be a problem?


Of course one can create an emotionally deflated situation and call it the real world, but what if it's OK to have these ups and downs. They are part of the path, part of action and reaction, since none of us can plan things ahead.

If you can truly detach, up and down is no problem. Up and down is only a problem when you hold on. I like the ocean analogy. A many standing in the ocean, holding on, gets tossed around by the waves all over the place and get sick and throws up. Continually bouncing from here to there, all over the place, always getting sick. For one who does not hold on, the waves still occur, because it's the ocean and that it just what it does. For one who does not hold on, the waves are no longer a problem because he is anchored by wisdom and no longer get tossed around and therefore no longer gets sick. But that does not mean the ocean turns into a lake. The ocean is still the ocean. But now there is just no longer the problem of getting sick.

I value the basics of Buddhism, the tools it gives a person to manage one's life in a thoughtful, quiet and sophisticated manner, but currently I cannot reconcile myself with the idea of not letting anything affect me, good or bad. It sounds like conditioning oneself to a minimalist extreme, and not like living to the fullest.

That is common misconception when "too much intellectualizing" takes place. The understanding of these things, the 3 marks, comes out of actual meditation practice, not by just by thinking about it.


I've had these concerns for many months and nothing I have read so far has given me reasons to change my opinion. At the same time it feels like running into a wall, not being able to assess "feelings and Buddhism".

I would suggest you seek the resolution to this in actual meditation practice rather than trying to figure it out by thinking about it. If all you do is think about it, you will end up going around in circles and end up coming to wrong conclusions. I don't know what kind of structured meditation practice you have, but the insight gained from a practice like that, is where the real understanding of this comes from. It does not and can not come from a book. The Buddha was very smart guy. He would never teach anything that was "bad for you".

possibilities

this lacking of inherent existence is because all things dependently originate.

thus the suffering that is mine or yours, really is just "suffering". it isn't owned by one person, nor can we say that is has any personal attribute to it. again because it lacks any kind of inherent characteristic or essence.

@taiyaki I'm trying to understand this: "things all dependently originate" - a phrase that is used quite often. Is this a reference to cause and effect? Does it mean that things (or situations rather?) have no inherent existence because things are in flux continuously?

the suffering that is mine or yours, really is just "suffering"

I guess one could say that we all suffer one way or another, yet my sorrow is not your sorrow, because whatever is happening here is not happening there. It may have happened earlier or may happen later, and that binds the 2, but it may also never happen in the same form. I am of course taking this literally and maybe that is where I am tripping up.

All this makes me feel quite incompetent, it's been a long time that I have been such a novice, and it is a bit disturbing.

hope this helps. i have to sleep so i rushed. so sorry if its confusing.

That was very touching.

Sorry I can't say much re the other things you mentioned since you already lost me right at the beginning.... Thanks so much for trying.

possibilities

"disconnecting themselves from potentially painful situations." in the Buddhist sense, means to realize the true nature of sense impressions. To realize they bear the 3 marks.

@seeker242 It would help if you could explain this with an example. How does one analyze the "true nature" of a situation in regards to the 3 marks?

Do you enjoy being upset? Do you think not being upset is dull? That is not what the Buddha taught.:) If you were happy all the time, would that be a problem?

I don't enjoy being upset but it seems to me it is unavoidable. That's just how life plays out. I would think it is an unrealistic expectation to assume bad or sad things won't happen. I guess the key is detachment, as in viewing situations as result of what happened prior. However, even if a rational explanation is worked out, it doesn't take the sting away from a hurtful situation (e.g.).....
Is it supposed to?
Is one supposed to acknowledge the pain and ... then what?
The pain of a loss will hurt even if you know about impermanence....
What is Buddha's answer to this?

That is common misconception when "too much intellectualizing" takes place. The understanding of these things, the 3 marks, comes out of actual meditation practice, not by just by thinking about it.

Yes, that appears to be true, since I struggle mightily trying to think through this.
I wonder now what do I get out of Buddhism as a beginner, since I have a feeling trying to understands this in meditation will take quite a while.....
While the precepts are easy for me, understanding all the above (and that's just the tip of the iceberg I assume) is a challenge and coming to this kind of late in the game sets its own parameters....

Thanks, @seeker242 , I appreciate your response

taiyaki

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=/watch?v=FN1vhgGpfDY&v=FN1vhgGpfDY&gl=US

Here is a great video on dependent origination. It is better to have someone who is a lot versed in the twelve chain link to explain it.

ravkes

@leahhc: This is just my opinion - but I really don't think anybody knows what's going on, they're just doing their best to deal with it. I was like you, I was put on anti-depressants. I was anxious and scared of previous systems of meaning (Buddhism believe it or not) not working for me like they used to. I was lost, confused and verging on insanity when mirroring the nature of the universe..

However, eventually I realized that I can't really conceptualize life because it's far too absurd for me to comprehend past what I can experience..and even more so I can't do anything about the universe being the way that it is because - I am the universe.. I can't exist without it (My body is made up of chemical compounds that only exist here, and I wouldn't be able to exist if it not were for the Oxygen that the Earth provides). So it's best just to stay within what you know and let what you can't know work itself out, that's the sane route that most people choose to take.

possibilities

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=/watch?v=FN1vhgGpfDY&v=FN1vhgGpfDY&gl=US

Here is a great video on dependent origination. It is better to have someone who is a lot versed in the twelve chain link to explain it.

@taiyaki wrong link?

taiyaki

LittleMighty

I think you're doing the right thing by looking into other ideas, religions and beliefs. By having a broader knowledge base, I think you'll be able to better make you're own decisions about what you are comfortable believing. You may find that while some concepts of Christianity apeal to you, others don't. Perhaps some concepts of Islam, Buddhism, or Judeism will also fit. There doesn't have to be a single path. No ONE WAY has to be THE WAY. Take the pieces and work with what makes sense to you. Good luck.

patbb

great vid taiyaki.

thank you for sharing.


about advice to let go


you can't and shouldn't try to let go of a loved one that you lost.
no matter how hard you try.
what you can let go of is the sad feeling associated with the lost.
so whats left behind is space for your love.

whats left is a smile and warm joyful feeling at the memory of the loved one
instead of darkness and tears of pain.


people often confuse love and sadness.
isn't this what love should be about? joy and happiness?



same principle apply to virtually everything.
you can't let go of that thing you shouldn't have done which caused harm to you or others, but you can let go of the sad feeling associated with it.


people usually eventually let go of things naturally.
But what can prevent this natural process from happening is our mind which can come up with very convincing arguments against this natural process of letting go and coming to term with situations.
We grow attached to our feelings, as if we would lose something if we lost the sad feeling that we have associated with a certain person or event.

example: If we had strong fear of dogs and we would lose that feeling and enjoy the company and love of a dog, would we miss that feeling of fear that was previously associated with the dog? of course not.

But if i lose a family member and feel much regrets for not having treated him as well as i could have while he was alive, things get more complicated a bit.
people feel they would miss that feeling as the mind come up with good logical arguments such as "i deserve it" or whatever but in essence it is the same situation as the fear of dog example.
if we were to lose that negative feeling associated with the event, all that would be left behind is space for our love to shine. Would we miss that feeling? of course not. Jut like we don't miss the negative feeling associated with any of the things that made us cry when we were kids (well most of them at least). broken toys, first broken heart, all we have left of those is a memory of the event and a smile on our face.

leahnc

Thanks so much everyone! I appreciate all the replies and suggestions....