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To me, the most basic aspect of Buddhism is being mindful. Mindful about what is going on around you, including what others say, but also mindful about what you are contributing to the environment. Think of it this way: it seems as if your views are turning other people off. Or perhaps it's almost more that your way of expressing your views is turning people off. Reminds me of a guy we have on another forum about Colorado. He himself calls himself a curmudgeon. I recently reminded him of the "official" synonyms of curmudgeon -- among them: bellyacher, complainer, crab, crank, griper, grump, sourpuss, whiner. It's gotten to the point that no one takes him seriously. Which is too bad, because he actually has some pretty good information to pass along. You're not that far along, but I personally think that if you were more mindful of how you express your views, people might consider them more carefully. Just a suggestion.
Thanks for that Vinlyn.... I was under the impression that people didn't like what I was saying because my views differed, but your blunt honesty gives me something else to consider.
I think there is a good chance they are developing nuclear weapons, but not sure what, if anything, should be done.
What do you think?
Well yes, of course they are developing nuclear weapons ! And the UN doesn't agree with this. Nothing should be done, or, not it shouldn't be done in an old military fashion. One guy said that nuclear powers are like this : two men sitting in lake of gasoline, one holding two matches in his hand, the other holding three. If , by any chance, one of them lights a match, both men will be fried (it was about the cold war). Now, applied to Iran, no major nuclear power will do something stupid, like invading the country with infantry and tanks hoping to find and destroy the nuclear arsenal . In any case, it's scary to see a country with dubious political and social agenda (radical Islam in every aspect) getting itself some nukes. Hope that sh*t won't hit the fan, and this thing is just a show-off.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2012
see how easily certain comments can be twisted or misinterpreted when there is no clarification or expansion...?
While I agree with @vinlyn that this discussion seems to be played on two different planes - foreign Policy and Buddhism - we are in a Buddhist forum, and as such should try to see matters from a Buddhist perspective. I am certain that there are countless other forums geared to discussing matters in different tones. As fellow beings, we wear 'different hats' for different occasions,and certain situations lend different slants and atmospheres to different discussions. Here - It's predominantly a view of life from a Buddhist perspective, viewable for those new to Buddhism and wishing to look through the window at how Buddhists view matters.
In short - if you want to get hot under the collar and discuss war tactics, torture and hostile aggression scenarios - find a forum that is more comfortable with that.
Remember where you are.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2012
Well normally I'd class myself as a pacifist.
Normally.
*Moderator note*: Some comments deleted as off-topic to maintain continuity.
In short - if you want to get hot under the collar and discuss war tactics, torture and hostile aggression scenarios - find a forum that is more comfortable with that.
Remember where you are.
Will do, but it's worth mentioning that it was a Mod that was adding as much heat to this subject as anyone else.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I believe that's probably why he left.
However, don't think that simply because we're Moderators it either exempts us from contributing, or that we are not entitled to an opinion. And have as much right to express it as others do.
However, don't think that simply because we're Moderators it either exempts us from contributing, or that we are not entitled to an opinion. And have as much right to express it as others do.
< USA in Iraq made war just for the Iraqi oil. Because USA got Iraqı oil for 90 years basis as a war indemnity.Now USA want Iran's oil... After they shared Libyan oil with France...
Most of the American people do not know the realities. Today Middleeast is in this unfortunate situation because of United States...Who is giving backup for Israel? Only USA.
Just for the record, we get less oil from Iraq than we do from Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Canada, Mexico, and the UK. And the first major Iraqi oil deal since the fall of Hussein went to China National Petroleum Corp. CHINA. Not the US.
And today, the Middle East is in its unfortunate situation because of the Middle Eastern mindset.
However, don't think that simply because we're Moderators it either exempts us from contributing, or that we are not entitled to an opinion. And have as much right to express it as others do.
And well you folks should be able to state your views and opinions, as well as moderate.
I will note that when I was a school principal and would be having a conversation with (for example) a teacher, I would sometimes differentiate when I was speaking officially or just as another person in the conversation. Certainly not always needed, but sometimes it clarified things and gave the teachers a greater comfort level in speaking out.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2012
on the old-look site, I'd put a red asterisk if i was in Mod-mode.... colour is not an option here, so like a well-camouflaged creature of prey, i am able to pounce unannounced.... :zombie:
Just for the record, we get less oil from Iraq than we do from Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Canada, Mexico, and the UK. .....
Hang on... we export oil to the USA?? And fuel costs twice as much in the UK as in the USA??
(See a previous post of mine in this thread, which slipped under the radar and went largely unnoticed.....)
I question the validity of the accusations being made against Iran. A few years ago the same claims were being made about Iraq.
Many people think it is about Oil but I think Oil is only a part of it. The US Dollar is the World's reserve currency and by having Oil bought and sold in US Dollars helps maintain that status. A few months before the US attacked Iraq, Saddam began selling Iraqi oil in Euros. When the famous Mission Accomplished banner went up, Iraqi oil was once agin being sold in US Dollars.
Libya is a country rich in natural resources including gold. Muammar Gaddafi wanted to start a new gold currency, the Diner, for African nations and he was planning to sell Libyan oil in diners.
Iran is presently selling it's oil in Eruros.
From the Buddhist perspective: Truth is very important. Someone once said to me, "I don't care what you do, just tell me about it so I can make an informed decision." I found that to be a very reasonable request and I see absolutely no value in hiding the truth. I would like to see the politics of the world run on truth. For those of us who live in democratic societies, being told the truth by our politicians is essential for us to be able to make informed decisions - government of the people, for the people and by the people.
Unfortunately I don't think that is always the case and I can no longer trust the politicians when they make statements trying to justify the lead up to war. How can any of us be sure what is really going on?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I recall a comedian in the UK once opining that anybody actually WANTING to be a politician should automatically be excluded from the running.... I'm sure many politicians enter the field with the right intentions, and with honourable purpose. Observation, experience and history tells us it doesn't always end up that way....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902). The historian and moralist, who was otherwise known simply as Lord Acton, expressed this opinion in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887:
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
I question the validity of the accusations being made against Iran. A few years ago the same claims were being made about Iraq.
Many people think it is about Oil but I think Oil is only a part of it. The US Dollar is the World's reserve currency and by having Oil bought and sold in US Dollars helps maintain that status. A few months before the US attacked Iraq, Saddam began selling Iraqi oil in Euros. When the famous Mission Accomplished banner went up, Iraqi oil was once agin being sold in US Dollars.
Libya is a country rich in natural resources including gold. Muammar Gaddafi wanted to start a new gold currency, the Diner, for African nations and he was planning to sell Libyan oil in diners.
Iran is presently selling it's oil in Eruros.
From the Buddhist perspective: Truth is very important. Someone once said to me, "I don't care what you do, just tell me about it so I can make an informed decision." I found that to be a very reasonable request and I see absolutely no value in hiding the truth. I would like to see the politics of the world run on truth. For those of us who live in democratic societies, being told the truth by our politicians is essential for us to be able to make informed decisions - government of the people, for the people and by the people.
Unfortunately I don't think that is always the case and I can no longer trust the politicians when they make statements trying to justify the lead up to war. How can any of us be sure what is really going on?
But the leader of Iran has made some pretty bold statements about what he says his country believes in -- for example that Israel should be destroyed. We didn't say he said that (and things like it), he's been witnessed by the world saying such things.
So while we may have miscalculated what some world leaders might be doing, Iran has made some of their intentions quite clear.
I recall a comedian in the UK once opining that anybody actually WANTING to be a politician should automatically be excluded from the running.... I'm sure many politicians enter the field with the right intentions, and with honourable purpose. Observation, experience and history tells us it doesn't always end up that way....
I think you're right about the intentions of must politicians.
It's been a little disturbing to watch people like Herman Cain running for the presidency, knowing that they're not going to win, but merely setting themselves up for writing a book or being a paid pundit on television.
@Vinlyn-"Iran has made some of their intentions quite clear" It is simply bluster and swagger, makes 'em look strong at home as well among other Islamist states. They would most certainly like to lead in the region, standing up to us and Israel is good politics for them. As they say lots of bark. Again, I will say war is about money and or power, I think anyone holding lofty ideals about why wars are fought needs to take a hard look at history. There are no "good" wars. @charirama- Good post. @vinlyn- You mention politicians. Didn't Perry in last nights debate say he wants to go back to Iraq? WTH!!! Talk about :screwy: At least Cain was just in it to make a buck, it's at least a little more straight forward and not so crazy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_owAnjuif0k
@Vinlyn-"Iran has made some of their intentions quite clear" It is simply bluster and swagger, makes 'em look strong at home as well among other Islamist states. They would most certainly like to lead in the region, standing up to us and Israel is good politics for them. As they say lots of bark. Again, I will say war is about money and or power, I think anyone holding lofty ideals about why wars are fought needs to take a hard look at history. There are no "good" wars. @charirama- Good post. @vinlyn- You mention politicians. Didn't Perry in last nights debate say he wants to go back to Iraq? WTH!!! Talk about :screwy: At least Cain was just in it to make a buck, it's at least a little more straight forward and not so crazy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_owAnjuif0k
Well, it may be bluster and swagger, or it may be intention. We don't know. And I think we have to look at both possibilities.
You know I'm reminded of a comedy routine I saw somewhere in the middle of the Iraq War controversy. Someone was portraying Saddam Hussein saying basically "I don't have weapons of mass destruction...and I'll use them".
I would agree that there has never been a "good" war, but there have certainly been some "necessary" wars.
I understand the argument that Perry was making. I don't agree with him.
It begs the question, so if Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, can we afford another protracted and costly war?
I admit that I don't know what we should do.
But I also believe firmly that we should never go to war or not go to war because of the expense. Putting our soldiers in harms way should not be a function of $$$. A war should be justified (or not) on other grounds, but never money.
I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but I think attacking Iran would be a stupid idea. For one, it'll only reinforce the image of America as an international bully attacking yet another predominately Muslim nation, further radicalizing people against us. In addition, both China and Russia are important trading partners with Iran, which would further strain relations between us and them, and could quite possibly instigate another cold war-style military buildup.
My best guess is that the US is hoping Israel will do it first (which they've repeatedly threatened to do), thereby taking some of the pressure off of us, even though everyone knows that we share close tactical relations and supply them with arms. But even then, Israel would take the brunt of the heat internationally, including any sort of retaliatory measures; and we'd have to come to their defense, putting us in a similar position anyway. It looks to be a no-win situation, especially since nobody wants to see a nuclear-armed Iran, either.
But the leader of Iran has made some pretty bold statements about what he says his country believes in -- for example that Israel should be destroyed. We didn't say he said that (and things like it), he's been witnessed by the world saying such things.
So while we may have miscalculated what some world leaders might be doing, Iran has made some of their intentions quite clear.
Agreed.
Iran has also stated that they only want to develop nuclear power to generate electricity. I don't trust any of the the players in this drama when it comes to the truth or selected bits of the truth.
I do, however, find it interesting that the so called "evil dictators" of the world are the ones who have stopped using the US Dollar for their Oil commerce while other tyrants seem to be left alone to continue their tyranny.
If U.S.A. Israel,France,U.K., India, Pakistan and all the others have nukleer energy, why Iran shouldn' have it?
You have to ask this question to your goodselves...
I'm not bothered at all by the US, France, UK, India, Israel, etc. have nuclear bombs. I have a problem with Pakistan and Iran having them because the first is a basket case and the second is run by doomsday theocratic lunatics who don't operate by rational, Enlightenment standards. Such a shame that Iran is the way it is...it has one of the most secular populations in the region.
I don't get it. The same people who are in favor of gun control scoff at "nuke control." Like guns, nuclear weapons should only be in the hands of people who are rational actors and who aren't felons or felon nations. Iran will be able to bully its neighbors at will even more than it does with a bomb.
Its all a smoke screen to distract you from the real enterprise - it is all amount amassing large sums of money and keeping the general population in economic slavery - you are controlled through fear.
e.g. the fear of the fanatic lends support to bombing libya... but who did we support? a minority faction who did not have anythign close to a majority parliamentary interest who now are engaging in ethnic cleansing? the murder of a dictator without trial? Perhaps it will make more sense if you consider that the UK spent around £300 million on the bombing and has already signed up to contracts over 10 years worth over £300 billion....
This goes back to the Sumerians and the Persians - they develeoped the first known system of governance bringing human rights to the people and moving away from divine cruelty - the system was bastardised into the hellonic system (the many support the few) and that has continued to this day - consider the athaenian league vs the league of nations (UN)...
Interestingly, nearly all of the high ranking greek generals defected to the persians... it was a massive shameful event for the greeks and when captured they were brutally murdered - even alexander defected - they realised that their system made them the heathens and the sumerians the enlightened...
The current global system is controlled by the winners of the world wars esp WW2 -if you study the financial system between the 1800 and the world wars you will find a very different landscape - also consider the cencuses from back then and the 15 categories of idiot below gentleman that would send you to the trenches and eugenics was government policy - very different times...
and now the big boys have the goose, the golden egg, a bunch of weapons to stop you from getting close and they arent sharing!!! the only way into an equal trading relationship in the IMF is by being a nuclear power - otherwise the interst payments on loans and BIS transactions etc is too costly if you wish to develop your country to any point less than a century behind the market leaders - in short, other 3rd world countries comply and their corrupt leaders are paid a handsome salary to keep the status quo giong...
you'll note that the current military actions are aganist financially non-compliant countries... thereby bringing their soverign funds into the world system through a series of controlled intermediaries...
a final thought on terrorists - we're constantly told that nuclear weapons could fall into the hands of terrorists - ignoring the fact that Russia leaked nuclear tech to pakistan and india - have a look at what it takes logistically to launch a nuclear weapon and more importantly how to set the warhead etc - its clear that this is not somethign that a terrorist organisation could do easily (if at all)...
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited January 2012
I don't get it. The same people who are in favor of gun control scoff at "nuke control." Like guns, nuclear weapons should only be in the hands of people who are rational actors and who aren't felons or felon nations. Iran will be able to bully its neighbors at will even more than it does with a bomb.
Something like 500,000 to 1,000,000 guns are stolen per year. Many from the rational actors by the irrational ones. Once nukes are out in the world its only a matter of time before the technology is acquired by irrational actors. I don't think Iran would be responsible with the power either and we should responsibly do what we can to prevent nukes from falling into irrational hands.
a final thought on terrorists - we're constantly told that nuclear weapons could fall into the hands of terrorists - ignoring the fact that Russia leaked nuclear tech to pakistan and india - have a look at what it takes logistically to launch a nuclear weapon and more importantly how to set the warhead etc - its clear that this is not somethign that a terrorist organisation could do easily (if at all)...
I don't think the worry is about terrorists launching a missle, its about a portable 'suitcase' nuke.
All this talk about Iran making a nuclear weapon... and what if someone were to say... well what's the big deal, USA has them, Pakistan, and a slew of other violent states/countries, and they don't use them, and claim to have some interest in removing nuclear weapons as threats.
Then all the talk comes down to the idea that Iran will destroy Israel with them. Ahmadenajad (forgive my spelling) said that Israel should be 'wiped off the map'. That's all I hear about. Bomb. Destroy Israel.
That's my thoughts.. that's all I know.
I question the validity of both claims of course. Surely there has to be a way into some truth here and out of a sticky situation? That would require a lack of ignorance by the public coming through unbiased media and honest politicians.
Just my thoughts.
Telly I'm sorry you left I'd be interested to hear you opinion/perspective...
I watched Amadhenajad on Charlie Rose.. it was sort of interesting... he was kind of calling Charlie Rose on the idea he and many people had about stoning women to death or raping them through courts... you know the story. He explained that it was false (of course believe whatever you want, he's not a great guy and I don't feel inclined to believe him either) and pointed out America's problem of being the most imprisoned country in the world.
One question... has let in people to inspect his country for nuclear weapons programs anytime in relatively recent past and if not when and do you know exactly why.
Because we didn't go to war for the oil? Perhaps we do have some integrity.
haha! this is so absurd it took me by surprise
no integrity at all. murdering for $$ and stealing other peoples stuff while raping the natural world. it's that simple. There is more than enough proofs for this.
from Major General Smedley Butler (at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history.)
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.[13]
According to Leon Panetta, the Secretary of Defense, Iran isn't developing nuclear weapons at the moment, only a 'nuclear capability.' While vague as to what that means, it could very well be for energy independence, as Iran asserts. If it's true that they're not currently developing nuclear weapons, what the hell is this really all about then? It raises the question, Do we have the right to prevent a country from developing nuclear energy simply because we're afraid they may one day use that technology to produce nuclear weapons? Obviously we think we do, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world necessarily agrees, and this is where I think future conflicts will arise now that the nuclear cat is out of the bag.
Moreover, we talk a lot about the threat from Iran; but we rarely talk about our threat to Iran, from our role in the 1953 CIA-organized coup that overthrew the democratically-elected Prime Minister, Mohammed Mossadeq, to our placement of military bases in the Middle East that literally surround Iran. So even assuming that all this talk about Iran pursuing nuclear weapons is true, can you really blame them? I mean, if I were them, I'd probably be a little paranoid about the US and want some kind of strategic deterrent too. Which still leaves us with the no-win situation of letting them continue to do whatever it is they're doing, possibly leading to the development of nuclear weapons some day, or attacking them and causing serious international blowback against the US and further radicalize our enemies. It's a real fucking mess, if you ask me.
Because we didn't go to war for the oil? Perhaps we do have some integrity.
haha! this is so absurd it took me by surprise
no integrity at all. murdering for $$ and stealing other peoples stuff while raping the natural world. it's that simple. There is more than enough proofs for this.
from Major General Smedley Butler (at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history.)
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.[13]
1. Try cutting down on the hyperbole. 2. So you found a statement from Major General Smedley Butler that dates to somewhere around 75 years ago. Gee, do you think you could find some people from the military that have a different view. But of course, to make your point, you don't want to be balanced.
1. Try cutting down on the hyperbole. 2. So you found a statement from Major General Smedley Butler that dates to somewhere around 75 years ago. Gee, do you think you could find some people from the military that have a different view. But of course, to make your point, you don't want to be balanced.
Chris Hedge is from the army, and share this view. date is from last week.
According to my view of facts and history, it was a genocidal war crime in the name of peace and democracy, in a place of the world deemed a "stupendous source of international vito power" over the globe after WW2.
That's the simple part of it I think he's talking about.
Okay, so again, that makes 2. Any balance from the many veterans in the military who are proud of their service?
It's not about being proud of the service or not on personal level from soldiers, it's about the reasons and motives for the military actions.
Soldiers do their job well and should be proud of what they did on a personal level, if they did courageous/honorable acts, no matter what.
Any balance from the many veterans in the military who can present the alternative point of view? well then go ahead, find some
find someone credibly explaining theses events from the other point of view and post them here. Would love to see this (seriously).
So you have Chomsky, hedge, Major General Smedley Butler and countless others on this side of the fence, who is on the other side? Cheney?
Pat, you have your anti-American view. Fine. Nothing I could say or post would deflect you from it. You don't want to provide any balance. All you want to do is spew venom.
America has its faults. No question about that. But we aren't exactly the Darth Vadar of the universe.
Pat, you have your anti-American view. Fine. Nothing I could say or post would deflect you from it. You don't want to provide any balance. All you want to do is spew venom.
America has its faults. No question about that. But we aren't exactly the Darth Vadar of the universe.
Any balance from the many veterans in the military who can present the alternative point of view? well then go ahead, find some
find someone credibly explaining theses events from the other point of view and post them here. Would love to see this (seriously).
So you have Chomsky, hedge, Major General Smedley Butler and countless others on this side of the fence, who is on the other side? Cheney?
just try and find some. Someone who is credible and explain the historical events from the other point of view.
You have your opinion and it must be based on a rational explanation of the events, so please just share some of your sources with me. Hope i'm not asking too much.
I do have venom in me and i would like nothing more than to shake a few of my understandings.
I used to debate a very right-wing American person when I was around 15 years old.
I would debate him about Iraq. He would show graphs about how many Iraqi people Saddam Hussein murdered and war crimes (history) and the amount of innocent people there are now being killed and war crimes being commited by American troops at that time. The graphs showed a very slight decrease when America invaded. And thus in his eyes the war was justified by his view of history.
I would read Chomsky books when I was that age, and maybe Pabt does to. They are full of historical views, apparently supported by facts, such as that America supported Saddam Hussein commit his attrocities, that they helped crush rebellions that probably would have overthrown Saddam. He made points that the one thing missing from the whole cursed conversation is Iraqi opinion on what the Iraqi people want
So he would post videos of people celebrating the fall of Saddam.
This guy wrote the book on how "liberalism" was a full out "mental illness"
Maybe I'm trying to build a bridge here.
I'm sure patbb has read some Chosmky or hedges.
While I don't encourage people to join the miliary and I probably never will, I have alot of respect for what they do.
A war with Iran is a scary idea. It's got the fourth most powerful army in the world.
Me and Patbb are probably less open to the idea that the Iraq war had even good intentions because of our view of history and facts. According to Lancet there were 800 000 civilian casualities many years ago. Was that not foreseeable or soemthing?
I don't like hate America... I don't hate any country. Maybe we don't have Anti-American views, maybe we're anti-war... or even Anarchist :O.
A war with Iran would be messed up man. #1 military superpower vs. #4.
Pat, I'll say it more time so you can understand: You have a right to your view. I hope you'll be very happy with it. But, you do have your anti-American view, and nothing I could say or post would deflect you from it.
Pat, I'll say it more time so you can understand: You have a right to your view. I hope you'll be very happy with it. But, you do have your anti-American view, and nothing I could say or post would deflect you from it.
well if you are not going to use logic then any conversation seems pointless indeed.
Comments
In any case, it's scary to see a country with dubious political and social agenda (radical Islam in every aspect) getting itself some nukes. Hope that sh*t won't hit the fan, and this thing is just a show-off.
While I agree with @vinlyn that this discussion seems to be played on two different planes - foreign Policy and Buddhism - we are in a Buddhist forum, and as such should try to see matters from a Buddhist perspective. I am certain that there are countless other forums geared to discussing matters in different tones.
As fellow beings, we wear 'different hats' for different occasions,and certain situations lend different slants and atmospheres to different discussions.
Here - It's predominantly a view of life from a Buddhist perspective, viewable for those new to Buddhism and wishing to look through the window at how Buddhists view matters.
In short - if you want to get hot under the collar and discuss war tactics, torture and hostile aggression scenarios - find a forum that is more comfortable with that.
Remember where you are.
Normally.
*Moderator note*:
Some comments deleted as off-topic to maintain continuity.
However, don't think that simply because we're Moderators it either exempts us from contributing, or that we are not entitled to an opinion.
And have as much right to express it as others do.
And today, the Middle East is in its unfortunate situation because of the Middle Eastern mindset.
I will note that when I was a school principal and would be having a conversation with (for example) a teacher, I would sometimes differentiate when I was speaking officially or just as another person in the conversation. Certainly not always needed, but sometimes it clarified things and gave the teachers a greater comfort level in speaking out.
colour is not an option here, so like a well-camouflaged creature of prey, i am able to pounce unannounced.... :zombie:
And fuel costs twice as much in the UK as in the USA??
(See a previous post of mine in this thread, which slipped under the radar and went largely unnoticed.....)
WTH....??
Many people think it is about Oil but I think Oil is only a part of it. The US Dollar is the World's reserve currency and by having Oil bought and sold in US Dollars helps maintain that status. A few months before the US attacked Iraq, Saddam began selling Iraqi oil in Euros. When the famous Mission Accomplished banner went up, Iraqi oil was once agin being sold in US Dollars.
Libya is a country rich in natural resources including gold. Muammar Gaddafi wanted to start a new gold currency, the Diner, for African nations and he was planning to sell Libyan oil in diners.
Iran is presently selling it's oil in Eruros.
From the Buddhist perspective:
Truth is very important. Someone once said to me, "I don't care what you do, just tell me about it so I can make an informed decision." I found that to be a very reasonable request and I see absolutely no value in hiding the truth. I would like to see the politics of the world run on truth. For those of us who live in democratic societies, being told the truth by our politicians is essential for us to be able to make informed decisions - government of the people, for the people and by the people.
Unfortunately I don't think that is always the case and I can no longer trust the politicians when they make statements trying to justify the lead up to war. How can any of us be sure what is really going on?
I'm sure many politicians enter the field with the right intentions, and with honourable purpose.
Observation, experience and history tells us it doesn't always end up that way....
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
So while we may have miscalculated what some world leaders might be doing, Iran has made some of their intentions quite clear.
It's been a little disturbing to watch people like Herman Cain running for the presidency, knowing that they're not going to win, but merely setting themselves up for writing a book or being a paid pundit on television.
It is simply bluster and swagger, makes 'em look strong at home as well among other Islamist states. They would most certainly like to lead in the region, standing up to us and Israel is good politics for them. As they say lots of bark. Again, I will say war is about money and or power, I think anyone holding lofty ideals about why wars are fought needs to take a hard look at history. There are no "good" wars.
@charirama- Good post.
@vinlyn- You mention politicians. Didn't Perry in last nights debate say he wants to go back to Iraq? WTH!!! Talk about :screwy: At least Cain was just in it to make a buck, it's at least a little more straight forward and not so crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_owAnjuif0k
You know I'm reminded of a comedy routine I saw somewhere in the middle of the Iraq War controversy. Someone was portraying Saddam Hussein saying basically "I don't have weapons of mass destruction...and I'll use them".
I would agree that there has never been a "good" war, but there have certainly been some "necessary" wars.
I understand the argument that Perry was making. I don't agree with him.
But I also believe firmly that we should never go to war or not go to war because of the expense. Putting our soldiers in harms way should not be a function of $$$. A war should be justified (or not) on other grounds, but never money.
My best guess is that the US is hoping Israel will do it first (which they've repeatedly threatened to do), thereby taking some of the pressure off of us, even though everyone knows that we share close tactical relations and supply them with arms. But even then, Israel would take the brunt of the heat internationally, including any sort of retaliatory measures; and we'd have to come to their defense, putting us in a similar position anyway. It looks to be a no-win situation, especially since nobody wants to see a nuclear-armed Iran, either.
Agreed.
Iran has also stated that they only want to develop nuclear power to generate electricity. I don't trust any of the the players in this drama when it comes to the truth or selected bits of the truth.
I do, however, find it interesting that the so called "evil dictators" of the world are the ones who have stopped using the US Dollar for their Oil commerce while other tyrants seem to be left alone to continue their tyranny.
e.g. the fear of the fanatic lends support to bombing libya... but who did we support? a minority faction who did not have anythign close to a majority parliamentary interest who now are engaging in ethnic cleansing? the murder of a dictator without trial? Perhaps it will make more sense if you consider that the UK spent around £300 million on the bombing and has already signed up to contracts over 10 years worth over £300 billion....
This goes back to the Sumerians and the Persians - they develeoped the first known system of governance bringing human rights to the people and moving away from divine cruelty - the system was bastardised into the hellonic system (the many support the few) and that has continued to this day - consider the athaenian league vs the league of nations (UN)...
Interestingly, nearly all of the high ranking greek generals defected to the persians... it was a massive shameful event for the greeks and when captured they were brutally murdered - even alexander defected - they realised that their system made them the heathens and the sumerians the enlightened...
The current global system is controlled by the winners of the world wars esp WW2 -if you study the financial system between the 1800 and the world wars you will find a very different landscape - also consider the cencuses from back then and the 15 categories of idiot below gentleman that would send you to the trenches and eugenics was government policy - very different times...
and now the big boys have the goose, the golden egg, a bunch of weapons to stop you from getting close and they arent sharing!!! the only way into an equal trading relationship in the IMF is by being a nuclear power - otherwise the interst payments on loans and BIS transactions etc is too costly if you wish to develop your country to any point less than a century behind the market leaders - in short, other 3rd world countries comply and their corrupt leaders are paid a handsome salary to keep the status quo giong...
you'll note that the current military actions are aganist financially non-compliant countries... thereby bringing their soverign funds into the world system through a series of controlled intermediaries...
a final thought on terrorists - we're constantly told that nuclear weapons could fall into the hands of terrorists - ignoring the fact that Russia leaked nuclear tech to pakistan and india - have a look at what it takes logistically to launch a nuclear weapon and more importantly how to set the warhead etc - its clear that this is not somethign that a terrorist organisation could do easily (if at all)...
All this talk about Iran making a nuclear weapon... and what if someone were to say... well what's the big deal, USA has them, Pakistan, and a slew of other violent states/countries, and they don't use them, and claim to have some interest in removing nuclear weapons as threats.
Then all the talk comes down to the idea that Iran will destroy Israel with them. Ahmadenajad (forgive my spelling) said that Israel should be 'wiped off the map'. That's all I hear about. Bomb. Destroy Israel.
That's my thoughts.. that's all I know.
I question the validity of both claims of course. Surely there has to be a way into some truth here and out of a sticky situation? That would require a lack of ignorance by the public coming through unbiased media and honest politicians.
Just my thoughts.
Telly I'm sorry you left I'd be interested to hear you opinion/perspective...
One question... has let in people to inspect his country for nuclear weapons programs anytime in relatively recent past and if not when and do you know exactly why.
this is so absurd it took me by surprise
no integrity at all. murdering for $$ and stealing other peoples stuff while raping the natural world.
it's that simple.
There is more than enough proofs for this.
from Major General Smedley Butler
(at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history.)
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.[13]
Moreover, we talk a lot about the threat from Iran; but we rarely talk about our threat to Iran, from our role in the 1953 CIA-organized coup that overthrew the democratically-elected Prime Minister, Mohammed Mossadeq, to our placement of military bases in the Middle East that literally surround Iran. So even assuming that all this talk about Iran pursuing nuclear weapons is true, can you really blame them? I mean, if I were them, I'd probably be a little paranoid about the US and want some kind of strategic deterrent too. Which still leaves us with the no-win situation of letting them continue to do whatever it is they're doing, possibly leading to the development of nuclear weapons some day, or attacking them and causing serious international blowback against the US and further radicalize our enemies. It's a real fucking mess, if you ask me.
2. So you found a statement from Major General Smedley Butler that dates to somewhere around 75 years ago. Gee, do you think you could find some people from the military that have a different view. But of course, to make your point, you don't want to be balanced.
date is from last week.
Soldiers do their job well and should be proud of what they did on a personal level, if they did courageous/honorable acts, no matter what.
Any balance from the many veterans in the military who can present the alternative point of view?
well then go ahead, find some
find someone credibly explaining theses events from the other point of view and post them here. Would love to see this (seriously).
So you have Chomsky, hedge, Major General Smedley Butler and countless others on this side of the fence, who is on the other side? Cheney?
According to my view of facts and history, it was a genocidal war crime in the name of peace and democracy, in a place of the world deemed a "stupendous source of international vito power" over the globe after WW2.
That's the simple part of it I think he's talking about.
America has its faults. No question about that. But we aren't exactly the Darth Vadar of the universe.
Someone who is credible and explain the historical events from the other point of view.
You have your opinion and it must be based on a rational explanation of the events, so please just share some of your sources with me. Hope i'm not asking too much.
I do have venom in me and i would like nothing more than to shake a few of my understandings.
I hope all goes well for the American people and the troops are treated well and this forum spreads some good info.
Don't confuse things more than it need to.
I love Japan but hate some of the things they did in the past.
I don't have any anti-Japanese views let me assure you.
I would debate him about Iraq. He would show graphs about how many Iraqi people Saddam Hussein murdered and war crimes (history) and the amount of innocent people there are now being killed and war crimes being commited by American troops at that time. The graphs showed a very slight decrease when America invaded. And thus in his eyes the war was justified by his view of history.
I would read Chomsky books when I was that age, and maybe Pabt does to. They are full of historical views, apparently supported by facts, such as that America supported Saddam Hussein commit his attrocities, that they helped crush rebellions that probably would have overthrown Saddam. He made points that the one thing missing from the whole cursed conversation is Iraqi opinion on what the Iraqi people want
So he would post videos of people celebrating the fall of Saddam.
This guy wrote the book on how "liberalism" was a full out "mental illness"
Maybe I'm trying to build a bridge here.
I'm sure patbb has read some Chosmky or hedges.
While I don't encourage people to join the miliary and I probably never will, I have alot of respect for what they do.
A war with Iran is a scary idea. It's got the fourth most powerful army in the world.
Me and Patbb are probably less open to the idea that the Iraq war had even good intentions because of our view of history and facts. According to Lancet there were 800 000 civilian casualities many years ago. Was that not foreseeable or soemthing?
I don't like hate America... I don't hate any country. Maybe we don't have Anti-American views, maybe we're anti-war... or even Anarchist :O.
A war with Iran would be messed up man. #1 military superpower vs. #4.
No thanks.