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HHDL is a tantric practitioner also. He has no problem keeping his vows. My example was meant to counter the tendency to view "using pleasure as path" as being about sex, drugs, alcohol & indulgence. Far from it. I'm sure you've read Lama Yeshe's Intro to Tantra and you know what I'm talking about. Even in non-tantric Buddhism energy of desire can be used in practice. It's just not spelled out as it is in tantra. Of course these things can (and do) happen and are often justified in this way. I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on them, and Trungpa is a bit of an enigma to me.
As to the source of the quote, as far as I can tell, it is neither trustworthy nor knowledgeable. I don't want to go into details why here.
Speaking of the Dalai Lama. He does teach the kalacakra, and that tantra teaches to have sex for enlightenment. If he teaches this, then is he only teaching from a book and not engaging? This tantra also includes drinking alcohol?
I once wrote to Stephen Batchelor about the Kalacakra Tantra after learning that he learned from the Dalai Lama. Here is his reply:
"However, all higher yoga tantras, including the Kalachakra, contain sexual practices, but these are only supposed to be undertaken after years of training. But, of course, some teachers use them as a justification to gain sexual favours from students. So be careful.
I had never heard of the New Jonang group until you mentioned it.
I came across Drukpa Kunley an old world 'crazy wisdom' tantric from Trungpa's lineage. So it seems there is some precedent for that style of teaching.
Drugpa Kunley in that book comes across as a sex addict. He says sex with anyone under 9 years of age is wrong (among other outrageous statements). So girls 9 and up are fair game. he obsesses over virgins. I've read conflicting things about Drukpa Kunley. Some say this type of figure is a trickster figure in Tibetan lore, like Coyote of Native American tradition, he's a negative example, and as such, is not intended to be emulated. But he's also said to have been a historical lama in Bhutan, where farmhouses and monasteries are painted with penises in his honor.
HHDL teaches about tantric sexual technique in a number of his books. In "The Good Heart", and "How To Practice, Way To A Meaningful Life", he discusses the importance of retaining the semen during sex. (His teachings on this are always from the male perspective, since they're intended for monks and yogis).
HHDL just gave a big Kalachakra initiation in Bodhgaya. I'm sorry I missed it. Must have been a helluva party over there, with all the sex and booze. :crazy:
Seriously people, if you are going to pass all those judgements, please first spend a couple of decades training under a qualified teacher and see where it takes you.
What "judgments" are you referring to, Paul? I'm only seeing facts and quotes conveyed. The sex and booze in the Kalachakra are in the esoteric level of practice, not the public level.
Maybe I should have used the word "misinterpretations". Now I am not claiming that I myself know anything substantial about tantric teachings and practices, but it occurs to me that it is extremely easy to misenterpret them, and especially if one is reading some sort of third-hand accounts. Even the works of well-meaning scholars, that can be extremely accurate on the language/historical level, but completely miss the mark - unless they have been themeselves practicing those teachings. Things that are symbolic get interpreted literally. Things that are dependent on social norms of particular era are evaluated in light of today's morality. This approach may be valuable, but is extremely superficial. It's like showing someone the picture of a yab-yum deity and they are shocked because they think it's about (literal) sex.
Yours are all commonly-cited points, I won't go into that. I just want to clarify that the topic of sex teachings came up in response to a statement made earlier that the Dalai Lama doesn't include the topic of sex in his teachings. The DL quotes aren't third-hand accounts.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
One point that I think gets short shrift in these threads is that the highest forms of tantra and the ones that include an actual consort are only to be practiced by someone who has a stable realization of emptiness and bodhicitta. I think this is overlooked because we in the west don't understand the full weight of these realizations. An intellectual understanding isn't sufficient. So that means that someones actual daily point of view is one that percieves the ultimate nature of things and is soley, or largely, motivated by the altruistic wish to be of benefit to others. As said before, not an intellectual understanding or a superficial wish but a profound departure from most peoples mental states.
When high level tantra is undertaken without those two attitudes there is great potential for it to simply reinforce ones desires. I think thats the assumption that is often made since a 'normal' mind is all we can really relate to. So when we hear of some of the esoteric rituals we put ourselves and our experience of the world in that spot and rightly imagine what would happen to someone like us doing that practice.
And to imagine based on a few esoteric practices and some cases of abuse that the outward appearance of TB is simply a sham and that behind closed doors there is a drunken sex orgy going on flys in the face of anyone with actual experience with these people. I simply don't think its possible to live that kind of double life, especially to the extent suggested.
The saving of semen is a Hindu tantric import, it is a system of thinking that makes enormous errors about human physiology, although it may have some practical basis. I met a practitioner who said after many years she realised it was a complicated distraction from being present (not because she failed, etc.). Given that we are in a historically priveledged position to have an unprecedented perspective of the religious history of many religions, we would have to be blind not to see that religion and sexual repression are never far apart. We can also see that practices do not equal what is preached and that transgressions are common. So, we can call it all a delusion, or we can start to be a bit more discerning about what it is we are doing. That is why I steer right away from traditional practices and because I think it is folly to assume that "we in the west don't understand the full weight of these realizations." Its orientalism uncut, where we romantically project on to some Tibetan "other" who holds an unattainable truth - which they have defined and is never really visible... only after you have reached stages xyz, are you ready for the "secret"... the secret is there is NO secret.
@DharmaField - the thing about witholding semen is equally present in Taoist practices, and there is definitely a connection between losing semen and levels of energy/concentration. I'm talking from my own experience. Yes, sexual repression is often found, but being celibate itself doesn't automatically equal repression.
To say we in the West don't understand these realisations and that there is something special about Tibetans is a misunderstanding. And yes, there are teachings about stages and yes there are things that we don't understand from our ordinary perspective.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited January 2012
That is why I steer right away from traditional practices and because I think it is folly to assume that "we in the west don't understand the full weight of these realizations." Its orientalism uncut, where we romantically project on to some Tibetan "other" who holds an unattainable truth - which they have defined and is never really visible... only after you have reached stages xyz, are you ready for the "secret"... the secret is there is NO secret.
Do you know of anyone that has a completely selfless attitude? How would you describe a non-dual perception of nature? I don't see how that couldn't be something profoundly different from the intellectual, dualistic perception most of us are used to.
To say we in the West don't understand these realisations and that there is something special about Tibetans is a misunderstanding.
I don't know if this was directed at my comment. But I don't think there is anything particularly special about being Tibetan, its the realizations that I call special. There's nothing inherently Tibetan about them.
I don't know if this was directed at my comment. But I don't think there is anything particularly special about being Tibetan, its the realizations that I call special. There's nothing inherently Tibetan about them.
Do you know of anyone that has a completely selfless attitude? How would you describe a non-dual perception of nature? I don't see how that couldn't be something profoundly different from the intellectual, dualistic perception most of us are used to.
To say we in the West don't understand these realisations and that there is something special about Tibetans is a misunderstanding.
I don't know if this was directed at my comment. But I don't think there is anything particularly special about being Tibetan, its the realizations that I call special. There's nothing inherently Tibetan about them.
A completely selfless attitude? There are some misunderstandings here. First is that our true nature is completely selfless. When we see into it, there is a merging of I and that, but the I doesn't disappear from then on. We need it to live our lives and so there is always a individual self and that does not change unrecognisably as a result of wisdom. What changes is the axis of our being an opening of ones heart. Non-dual perception of nature is just nature, just the bird calling outside my window. When we fully pay attention to the bird call, it becomes a dharma gate and we can enter through it. The intellect does not die, we can also see non-duality in our thoughts themselves. The key is that we can see into the unfathomable nature of who we are.
It is easy to project perfection onto the unfamiliar, and they say you can't be a prophet in your own town. I have never met a perfect person and I notice how my mind grasps at it, and avoids its opposite. It is hard to judge others, but I also notice that when my heart is open I see perfection the local street person.
Wouldn't you say, then, that we can flip the coin and say that seeing faults in others is a projection also?
Its true and not true. The local drunk stinks, can be violent and if I were to invite him home, no doubt something would go missing. And if I were to take all the drunks in my town home it would be chaos. So, we have to balance find a discriminating balance between self and other, between romantic ideals and the reality of our life. But there is plenty of room for being a little more crazy in this direction.
tantra in essence uses everything for enlightenment. whether it is sex or drugs.
but this practice isn't for everyone, nor is it understandable by everyone.
it takes a certain type of being.
This falls into the myth of enlightenment. There is insight, there is wisdom, and I think there may be value in experimenting and getting some insight this way, but it is important to recognize that the innate clear light and emptiness is not a one-off. To maintain insight achieved through drugs way isn't very sustainable. It is a myth that we can continue to drink excessively without consequences. There is no avoiding cause and effect.
Tantra seems to represent one side of the human dilemma around sexuality: virgin or whore.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@DharmaField I'm sorry, but all I hear are words in your explanation. Fully pay attention to a bird call? There is a you that is paying attention and a bird that is calling, dualistic. Non-dual perception of nature is just nature. Sure, but that is just a description, its not an actual non-dual view of the world.
Remembering some of your posts you strike me as an intelligent and insightful person, I just think on the issue of the degree of realization available to people we have to agree to disagree.
cause and effect is completely a projection. and even such projection is a projection.
the purpose of karmamudra is to use the sexual energy for higher purposes. this isn't much of a myth really. sure insight is important, but so is meditation and yoga.
one cannot produce karma if one does not identify. if rigpa is obvious then actions may manifest based on causes/conditions but no karma is collected because the "i am" conceit is seen through.
@DharmaField I'm sorry, but all I hear are words in your explanation. Fully pay attention to a bird call? There is a you that is paying attention and a bird that is calling, dualistic. Non-dual perception of nature is just nature. Sure, but that is just a description, its not an actual non-dual view of the world.
Remembering some of your posts you strike me as an intelligent and insightful person, I just think on the issue of the degree of realization available to people we have to agree to disagree.
No worries. I am happy with just the bird call, I wish you well with the getting something special ...
And to imagine based on a few esoteric practices and some cases of abuse that the outward appearance of TB is simply a sham and that behind closed doors there is a drunken sex orgy going on flys in the face of anyone with actual experience with these people. I simply don't think its possible to live that kind of double life, especially to the extent suggested.
Women who've been tricked or coerced into participating in these rituals report that they are orgies. 9 mudras are required because the sex continues all night, and the nature of the tantric orgasms is such that it exhausts the women. The double life happens because the women are threatened with "Vajra Hell", black magic and even death to keep the secret. I find it remarkable that women have caved to those threats, but they have.
Anyway, I think we've veered slightly from th OP, which was about Trungpa and his antics, which were not secret at all. (or were they?)
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited January 2012
Women who've been tricked or coerced into participating in these rituals report that they are orgies. 9 mudras are required because the sex continues all night, and the nature of the tantric orgasms is such that it exhausts the women. The double life happens because the women are threatened with "Vajra Hell", black magic and even death to keep the secret. I find it remarkable that women have caved to those threats, but they have.
Ok, I don't deny that these practices happen. What I have an issue with is the assumed motivation that is being placed on the practicioners. Namely that of it being a clever way to get laid under false pretenses.
I can certainly imagine that there may be an attitude towards women that is carried over from feudal Tibet that would leave them feeling used. I think if thats the case it should change and the woman should take a more active role. Miranda Shaw comes to mind.
In the quote in question there was also the assertion that this sort of thing is widespread and pervades all of TB. Women simply not speaking up is not enough to make people see a kind ethical person where there is really a sexual predator.
cause and effect is completely a projection. and even such projection is a projection.
the purpose of karmamudra is to use the sexual energy for higher purposes. this isn't much of a myth really. sure insight is important, but so is meditation and yoga.
one cannot produce karma if one does not identify. if rigpa is obvious then actions may manifest based on causes/conditions but no karma is collected because the "i am" conceit is seen through.
How can a person in a body not produce karma? No person... no karma - extinction of the self... I recall the Buddha contradicted this view. Yes, the conceit of I is seen through, mind and body drop away, and there is just the world as it is, but the I is not extinguished. Nibhanna is not death. There remains the same body, family, life habits and education. The burden of identification is lifted and we can begin to get out of the way and allow, but to do this is an ongoing learning. The relation to the ego is different, and there is a sense what needs to become not grasping and not avoiding, but it is an ongoing practice and learning. I can say with some confidence there is no magical jumping of all the steps - the struggle is also part of the gift. I am not saying I am a master, but yes after 35 years at it, I can see something and I can see why all the great masters kept practicing. So, forgive me if I am skeptical of someone who thinks or says, I have got it and now I don't have to practice... I just want to open the windows to let some fresh air in.
I believe @taiyaki's statement would apply to a fully enlightened Buddha, or else only at the time when the person dwells in rigpa, but otherwise is still on the path. Then there is no karma produced.
Also it is irrelevant if someone claims to abide in rigpa or completely irradiated i am conceit.
All that matters is your projections and your practice.
If one has the karma to project a perfect being then all they see is such perfect being. And such perfection is merely the reflection of ones own perfection.
Of course, not producing kamma is an unverifiable hypthesis - a belief. And we are back to beliefs about rebirth, etc... It is a circular logic. If we do create kamma, which we cant help by virtue of having a body and history, it then becomes a ripening of past kamma. Either you believe or you don't...
I am open, but see so many holes in the above view that I don't take it at face value. And, from a pragmatic perspective, I see contradictions. For example, Tibetans in India don't display much compassion or interest in helping poor Indians. At Bodhagaya, there was more interest in building massive statues than helping build a school for dilit kids. These things speak to me, and Dakini's stories, don't include the western women who thought they were special, but later realised they were taken advantage of, in the seductive context of power. We need to be wary of our projections and yes, when you see into the practice, you will think the whole world is buddha and that too is a thought.
Hi, DharmaField. I'm not sure what your comment means about women who agreed, thinking they were special, then later realized they'd been taken advantage of. But there have been cases of that, but also cases where women refused, and were browbeaten or, some say, hypnotized, into participating. Anyway, these cases can't be characterized any single way, there are many variations. And that's not mentioning outright rape, which I've heard rumors of, but haven't spoken to anyone who has given such testimony.
Ok, I don't deny that these practices happen. What I have an issue with is the assumed motivation that is being placed on the practicioners. Namely that of it being a clever way to get laid under false pretenses.
Anyway, I think we've veered slightly from th OP, which was about Trungpa and his antics, which were not secret at all. (or were they?)
Maybe @Newstatesman could clarify whether the OP is limited to Trungpa, or to "Buddhist teachers" more generally, as the title says.
Source=the women themselves. One had a website up about her experiences, but was forced to take it down due to threats by her lama or ex-lama.
I think there are ethical teachers out there, people dedicated to teaching the good old-fashioned Bodhi path, and even some who teach tantra ethically, but I think tantric practice can attract the wrong personalities, people who are attracted to it for the wrong reasons. It's problematic. Maybe we can at least agree on that--it's playing with fire, and there's much potential for abuse.
Good link. To me this does show that actual abuse eventually comes to light. Clearly Sogyal Rinpoche is a sex addict and even a predator. He used and maybe still hides behind the tantric teachings and uses them to rationalize his behavior.
I didn't read all the articles but what I gathered was that he was having sex for pleasure with students using his position and the teachings to get what he wanted. There wasn't any actual ritual consort tantra taking place.
I especially liked in one of the articles a quote by the 10th century Buddhist master Dharmarakshita:
‘For the sake of material gain you assume the guise of a noble one: Like dogs and pigs you indulge in lustful acts, Deceiving all with the claim that this is tantra— You should be burned in a hearth by vajra holders….Those who lead the foolish with no graduated stages of the path should be brought to the level of dogs by the learned ones.’
Bottom line, sexual abuse happens across all religions and in all sects of Buddhism. The tantric teachings gives abusers in TB another justification for their behavior, but thats all it is, a justification. Actual tantric teaching and practice isn't abusive or indulgent and I'd just like for sexual abuse to be outed and dealt with on its own terms instead of some other people using it to trash tantra.
Bottom line, sexual abuse happens across all religions and in all sects of Buddhism. The tantric teachings gives abusers in TB another justification for their behavior, but thats all it is, a justification. Actual tantric teaching and practice isn't abusive or indulgent and I'd just like for sexual abuse to be outed and dealt with on its own terms instead of some other people using it to trash tantra.
Yes, exactly. I think TB might be a little more prone to abuse, but when you look at Zen (not to mention Western religions), it's clear that it's more about power and ego. Thanks for the quote.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
(why is this topic in Diet & Habits?)
Good question.Funnily enough I just noticed that, and asked myself too.....!
Comments
In some ways it seems like it causes problems, and dare I say contradict original Buddhist teaching.
http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-is-in-kalachakra-tantra.html
"However, all higher yoga tantras, including the Kalachakra, contain sexual practices, but these are only supposed to be undertaken after years of training. But, of course, some teachers use them as a justification to gain sexual favours from students. So be careful.
I had never heard of the New Jonang group until you mentioned it.
Warmly, Stephen"
HHDL teaches about tantric sexual technique in a number of his books. In "The Good Heart", and "How To Practice, Way To A Meaningful Life", he discusses the importance of retaining the semen during sex. (His teachings on this are always from the male perspective, since they're intended for monks and yogis).
Seriously people, if you are going to pass all those judgements, please first spend a couple of decades training under a qualified teacher and see where it takes you.
(why is this topic in Diet & Habits?)
Yours are all commonly-cited points, I won't go into that. I just want to clarify that the topic of sex teachings came up in response to a statement made earlier that the Dalai Lama doesn't include the topic of sex in his teachings. The DL quotes aren't third-hand accounts.
When high level tantra is undertaken without those two attitudes there is great potential for it to simply reinforce ones desires. I think thats the assumption that is often made since a 'normal' mind is all we can really relate to. So when we hear of some of the esoteric rituals we put ourselves and our experience of the world in that spot and rightly imagine what would happen to someone like us doing that practice.
And to imagine based on a few esoteric practices and some cases of abuse that the outward appearance of TB is simply a sham and that behind closed doors there is a drunken sex orgy going on flys in the face of anyone with actual experience with these people. I simply don't think its possible to live that kind of double life, especially to the extent suggested.
Given that we are in a historically priveledged position to have an unprecedented perspective of the religious history of many religions, we would have to be blind not to see that religion and sexual repression are never far apart. We can also see that practices do not equal what is preached and that transgressions are common. So, we can call it all a delusion, or we can start to be a bit more discerning about what it is we are doing. That is why I steer right away from traditional practices and because I think it is folly to assume that "we in the west don't understand the full weight of these realizations." Its orientalism uncut, where we romantically project on to some Tibetan "other" who holds an unattainable truth - which they have defined and is never really visible... only after you have reached stages xyz, are you ready for the "secret"... the secret is there is NO secret.
To say we in the West don't understand these realisations and that there is something special about Tibetans is a misunderstanding. And yes, there are teachings about stages and yes there are things that we don't understand from our ordinary perspective.
which is the union of lunar and solar energies to bring about the play of bliss upon meeting voidness and energy?
this is a very high teaching in dzogchen.
now with the use of drugs. if one were to recognize innate clear light and emptiness, then the use of drugs is okay.
because essentially all is a manifestation of clear light and also dependently arisen thus empty.
so there is a false duality asserted between a clear mind and a confused mind.
from the point of clear light and emptiness all is of one essence.
tantra in essence uses everything for enlightenment. whether it is sex or drugs.
but this practice isn't for everyone, nor is it understandable by everyone.
it takes a certain type of being.
Tantra seems to represent one side of the human dilemma around sexuality: virgin or whore.
Remembering some of your posts you strike me as an intelligent and insightful person, I just think on the issue of the degree of realization available to people we have to agree to disagree.
and even such projection is a projection.
the purpose of karmamudra is to use the sexual energy for higher purposes.
this isn't much of a myth really. sure insight is important, but so is meditation and yoga.
one cannot produce karma if one does not identify. if rigpa is obvious then actions may manifest based on causes/conditions but no karma is collected because the "i am" conceit is seen through.
Anyway, I think we've veered slightly from th OP, which was about Trungpa and his antics, which were not secret at all. (or were they?)
I can certainly imagine that there may be an attitude towards women that is carried over from feudal Tibet that would leave them feeling used. I think if thats the case it should change and the woman should take a more active role. Miranda Shaw comes to mind.
In the quote in question there was also the assertion that this sort of thing is widespread and pervades all of TB. Women simply not speaking up is not enough to make people see a kind ethical person where there is really a sexual predator.
Nibhanna is not death. There remains the same body, family, life habits and education. The burden of identification is lifted and we can begin to get out of the way and allow, but to do this is an ongoing learning. The relation to the ego is different, and there is a sense what needs to become not grasping and not avoiding, but it is an ongoing practice and learning. I can say with some confidence there is no magical jumping of all the steps - the struggle is also part of the gift. I am not saying I am a master, but yes after 35 years at it, I can see something and I can see why all the great masters kept practicing.
So, forgive me if I am skeptical of someone who thinks or says, I have got it and now I don't have to practice... I just want to open the windows to let some fresh air in.
All that matters is your projections and your practice.
If one has the karma to project a perfect being then all they see is such perfect being. And such perfection is merely the reflection of ones own perfection.
I am open, but see so many holes in the above view that I don't take it at face value. And, from a pragmatic perspective, I see contradictions. For example, Tibetans in India don't display much compassion or interest in helping poor Indians. At Bodhagaya, there was more interest in building massive statues than helping build a school for dilit kids. These things speak to me, and Dakini's stories, don't include the western women who thought they were special, but later realised they were taken advantage of, in the seductive context of power. We need to be wary of our projections and yes, when you see into the practice, you will think the whole world is buddha and that too is a thought.
Source=the women themselves. One had a website up about her experiences, but was forced to take it down due to threats by her lama or ex-lama.
I think there are ethical teachers out there, people dedicated to teaching the good old-fashioned Bodhi path, and even some who teach tantra ethically, but I think tantric practice can attract the wrong personalities, people who are attracted to it for the wrong reasons. It's problematic. Maybe we can at least agree on that--it's playing with fire, and there's much potential for abuse.
I don't have links to the previous threads on NB
haha--that's funny, Jeffrey. It sounds like: "Remember the Alamo!" ^_^ Good job.
I didn't read all the articles but what I gathered was that he was having sex for pleasure with students using his position and the teachings to get what he wanted. There wasn't any actual ritual consort tantra taking place.
I especially liked in one of the articles a quote by the 10th century Buddhist master Dharmarakshita:
‘For the sake of material gain you assume the guise of a noble one: Like dogs and pigs you indulge in lustful acts, Deceiving all with the claim that this is tantra— You should be burned in a hearth by vajra holders….Those who lead the foolish with no graduated stages of the path should be brought to the level of dogs by the learned ones.’
Bottom line, sexual abuse happens across all religions and in all sects of Buddhism. The tantric teachings gives abusers in TB another justification for their behavior, but thats all it is, a justification. Actual tantric teaching and practice isn't abusive or indulgent and I'd just like for sexual abuse to be outed and dealt with on its own terms instead of some other people using it to trash tantra.
Moved.