Was jhana discovered by Buddha?

Jeffrey

Was Jhana discovered by buddha? Yes? No? Don't know? Maybe? Probably X? etc

To make it more clear had jhana been experienced prior by anyone? Any records of other teachers describing meditative states resembling jhana?

patbb

the Jain religion precede Buddhism and they use the jhanas as well.

im sure there are many other religions and sect who have stumble upon them.


I've even heard of catholic and Muslim people experiencing jhanas, although they didn't know what they were and so far i've only heard of the first few...

ajnast4r

My understanding is no. He was taught meditation techniques by his first two teachers that brought him up to the highest absorptions, which means he must have passed through the lower Jhanic states... which means that his teachers also must have been able to access Jhanic states, as well as many of their students.

The Buddhas unique discovery was using the Jhanas to gain insight into the truth.

zen_world

Was Jhana discovered by buddha? Yes? No? Don't know? Maybe? Probably X? etc

To make it more clear had jhana been experienced prior by anyone? Any records of other teachers describing meditative states resembling jhana?

I think the answer is no...Even before Buddha, in India Jhana was a practice among Yogis...
Buddha learnt jhana from his teachers and he reached all the way to neither perception nor non-perception stage but he concluded that jhanas do not end the suffering. They are also impermenant.

taiyaki

No, but he rediscovered insight meditation.

Jhana was taught to him by his teachers and he found that it did not lead towards total liberation.

Jason

My understanding is no. He was taught meditation techniques by his first two teachers that brought him up to the highest absorptions, which means he must have passed through the lower Jhanic states... which means that his teachers also must have been able to access Jhanic states, as well as many of their students.

The Buddhas unique discovery was using the Jhanas to gain insight into the truth.

Yes, the Buddha learned meditation techniques from two previous teachers that lead to the development of the third and fourth arupa jhanas, respectively. These, however, didn't directly lead to awakening, and it was a combination of developing the first four jhanas together with cultivating insight, directing the mind towards 'knowledge and vision of things as they are,' that finally lead to the Buddha's awakening. This is detailed in places like MN 36.

Jeffrey

patbb, How does it work with jhanas and using them towards enlightenment? Does buddhas novel teaching come in that area?

There must be quite a gap to jump between the jhanas and reaching enlightenment. I was wondering about this in response to your thread with the teaching course. Just idle thoughts wondering what brings one from the jhanas to enlightenment. My teacher said that not all of the jhanas can be used to increase insight.

taiyaki

also it might be important to note that samadhi is another word for jhana or absorption.

zen_world

patbb, How does it work with jhanas and using them towards enlightenment? Does buddhas novel teaching come in that area?

There must be quite a gap to jump between the jhanas and reaching enlightenment. I was wondering about this in response to your thread with the teaching course. Just idle thoughts wondering what brings one from the jhanas to enlightenment. My teacher said that not all of the jhanas can be used to increase insight.

what is your understanding of enlightenment? Is it more zen-ish or tibetan?

patbb

patbb, How does it work with jhanas and using them towards enlightenment? Does buddhas novel teaching come in that area?

There must be quite a gap to jump between the jhanas and reaching enlightenment. I was wondering about this in response to your thread with the teaching course. Just idle thoughts wondering what brings one from the jhanas to enlightenment. My teacher said that not all of the jhanas can be used to increase insight.

just watch these videos,
http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/dr-ingram-and-hardcore-dharma-video/
they offer answers that couldn't be any clearer.

ps: not spamming, just answering appropriately

ajnast4r

http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html

Listen to Section 1, The Buddha's Enlightenment. Specifically the talks on the Bhayabherava sutta.

Jeffrey

@zen_world said:

what is your understanding of enlightenment? Is it more zen-ish or tibetan?

I study with a Tibetan sangha but I don't read too much about the description of enlightenment. One my teacher gave was to have unconditional confidence and that the buddhist teachings were all about bringing one back to confidence.

Zero

No - there are records of similar techniques considerably predating Buddhism...

If 'you' dont exist and enlightenment is the realisation of the living buddha nature then you are already enlightened - you just havent focused on that part yet!

There is no gap between any practice / path and enlightenment.

Jhanas are useful living experiences and can serve to catalyse threshold change... some people need to experience the unbelievable in order to unbelieve...

ajnast4r

patbb, How does it work with jhanas and using them towards enlightenment? Does buddhas novel teaching come in that area?

There must be quite a gap to jump between the jhanas and reaching enlightenment. I was wondering about this in response to your thread with the teaching course. Just idle thoughts wondering what brings one from the jhanas to enlightenment. My teacher said that not all of the jhanas can be used to increase insight.

I think you're echoing a common misconception and one that I had for quite some time, that enlightenment IS a or is the result OF a meditative state... and I dont believe that is what the Buddha taught.

MY understanding is this: Jhanic concentration slows our perception of the mind down to the point that you are able to see the arising of thought at the pre-conceptual/phenomenological level. This way you can see things as they are, and their true nature, that EVERYTHING truly is dhukka, annata & anicca.

zen_world

@zen_world said:

what is your understanding of enlightenment? Is it more zen-ish or tibetan?

I study with a Tibetan sangha but I don't read too much about the description of enlightenment. One my teacher gave was to have unconditional confidence and that the buddhist teachings were all about bringing one back to confidence.

In Tibetan buddhism, the enlightenment is achieved when you purified yourself completely thru tantric practices. Tibetans do not consider zen description of awakening or samadhi experiences as full enlightenment. Those are necessary on the path. You can reach all the way to top jhana but yet you can still turn back to your old conditioning again.
But seeing clear light is important although there are still some work to do. The tantric steps are well described in Naropa's yoga systems. But the idea is to transfer your consciousness into an illusory body - until then one reaches to arahant status. After then purification will lead you to Buddha hood. That means becoming a deity your self in a light body.
In Tibetan Buddhism, one need to know certain techniques and must have recieved initiations and empowerments to be able to become fully enlightened. Jhanas are enlightenment experiences but they are experiences after all..just like everythingelse they are impermanent.

Jeffrey

@zen_world, my sangha is a mahayana sangha though my teacher has studied mahamudra and said to have an excellent understanding according to her teacher.

zen_world

@zen_world, my sangha is a mahayana sangha though my teacher has studied mahamudra and said to have an excellent understanding according to her teacher.

She could be but tantric system is not revealed to a student until he is ready. So they won't describe it to you and they will give you vague or philosophical description of enlightenment.

Jeffrey

@zen_world, personally I will not study tantra and that's ok with my teacher. I have schizoaffective disorder and I am not very trusting of power/kundalini. But Tibetan buddhism teaches all three vehicles and I will have plenty to occupy myself :cool:

zen_world

@zen_world, personally I will not study tantra and that's ok with my teacher. I have schizoaffective disorder and I am not very trusting of power/kundalini. But Tibetan buddhism teaches all three vehicles and I will have plenty to occupy myself :cool:

I agree...you don't have to...this is Tibetan yoga system and not everyone has to go thru it.
I believe in Buddha's simple recipe...4th jhana + dharma... That was his recipe... I personall use this as well...

shanyin

from my understanding the answer is no

Buddha had teachers who taught him jhana states.

shanyin

patbb, How does it work with jhanas and using them towards enlightenment? Does buddhas novel teaching come in that area?

There must be quite a gap to jump between the jhanas and reaching enlightenment. I was wondering about this in response to your thread with the teaching course. Just idle thoughts wondering what brings one from the jhanas to enlightenment. My teacher said that not all of the jhanas can be used to increase insight.

I told my teacher that I thought that the Buddha said that Jhanas were a way to enlightenment (due to material I had read which I probably misinterpreted.)

He said thats "That's certainly incorrect" and said that a metaphor is like putting a boulder on a plant, whereas insight meditation is like rooting them out (defilements... pretty sure he meant (said) defilements.

zen_world

patbb, How does it work with jhanas and using them towards enlightenment? Does buddhas novel teaching come in that area?

There must be quite a gap to jump between the jhanas and reaching enlightenment. I was wondering about this in response to your thread with the teaching course. Just idle thoughts wondering what brings one from the jhanas to enlightenment. My teacher said that not all of the jhanas can be used to increase insight.

I told my teacher that I thought that the Buddha said that Jhanas were a way to enlightenment (due to material I had read which I probably misinterpreted.)

He said thats "That's certainly incorrect" and said that a metaphor is like putting a boulder on a plant, whereas insight meditation is like rooting them out (defilements... pretty sure he meant (said) defilements.

One needs jhana factors to be able to gain insights. One of these factors is single point concentration. Without single point concentration, your analysis of phenomena is simply not possible. One needs to lock the emotions and thoughts in mind and analyze its nature. This requires single point cocentration which can be gained thru jhanas. From my readings, Buddha recommended reaching to fourth jhana which is the right concentration.

shanyin

thank you.

Spaceless

Zen and tibetan are same class of enlightenment. zen goes directly into the source whereas tibetan on tantric into the source as mentioned. And understanding enlightenment is important.

misecmisc1

Hi All,

i have read somewhere(though i cant remember) that Buddha after getting Awakened in a night, after that remained in that state for 7 more days - is this correct?

if yes, then a question arises in my mind - where was Buddha in that duration - inside his body or outside? Since Nirvana is not a mental formation and not a mental state and is unconditioned - so is there any Buddhist text which suggests where was Buddha/what Buddha was doing in that period of 7 days after getting Enlightenment.

it can be an idiotic question from my side - but after reading through the above post, came to my mind somehow, so just asked it. Please suggest.

SpinyNorman2

Yes, the Buddha learned meditation techniques from two previous teachers that lead to the development of the third and fourth arupa jhanas, respectively. These, however, didn't directly lead to awakening, and it was a combination of developing the first four jhanas together with cultivating insight, directing the mind towards 'knowledge and vision of things as they are,' that finally lead to the Buddha's awakening. This is detailed in places like MN 36.

Good summary. I think also that from reading sutta descriptions of the Buddha's enlightenment, the arupa jhanas represent progressive "glimpses" of the enlightened state.

Spiny

newtech

Hello:

Yes, the Buddha probably discovered the jhanas.
My personal opinion:

(MN-36) states two important things:

-Before becoming the buddha, Siddharta had two teachers.
Alara Kalama taught him the dimension of nothingness, and Uddaka Ramaputta taught him the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

-Later, after abandoning those teachers and becoming a wanderer, Siddharta remembered when he was a child and how he enter into the first jhana.
The way its mentioned in the sutta clearly shows that memory as a revelation to his practice, meaning its unlikely those teachers where doing "jhanas", or it would be completely incoherent bringing that memory to the topic.

---

-inmaterial attainments, or "arupa jhanas", in the suttas where never mentioned as "jhanas". There where only four jhanas. Inmaterial attainments where more like variations of the 4th jhana.

- Thats something really interesting. How could a person get into inmaterial attainments without going throw the jhanas?. The most coherent and possible way is that jhanas are not absortion/one pointed concentration as most people believe, otherwise those teachers would have hit the "first jhanas" in order to get into the inmaterial rounds, because absortion can only be seeing in a linear and gradual way. Ex: certain degree of concentration=1th jhana, more concentration 2nd jhana,etc. So jhanas are something else. Most people believe they can get into the first jhana doing one pointed concentration and then turn their minds into insight of phenomenas, so you dont really need insight atleast to get into the first jhana. But that sutta clearly shows that can´t be it, otherwise the buddha would have hit atleast the first jhana doing absortion with those teachers in order to get into inmaterial realms.

With metta,

Pd: sorry for my english.

Jason

-inmaterial attainments, or "arupa jhanas", in the suttas where never mentioned as "jhanas". There where only four jhanas. Inmaterial attainments where more like variations of the 4th jhana.

That's an interesting point. Only the first four are specifically called jhanas (i.e., first, second, third, and fourth), yet the last four are often included in places such as the Jhana Sutta along with the first four, suggesting that these are related in some way and considered jhanas (absorptions) in their own right. The main difference, as I understand it, is that the latter are all perception attainments that, while not directly related, depend upon holding a particular perception in mind (which is why they're identified by their objects) and can't be analyzed until after one has come out of that meditative state (e.g., see SN 14.11 and MN 121), whereas the first four are not only connected (two through four are attained by the dropping or fading of a particular aspect of the previous one), but levels of concentration that are less involved and lend themselves to investigation while still in them. As Thanissaro notes in his translation of MN 111:

Notice that, with each of the previous levels of attainment, Sariputta was able to ferret out the various mental qualities arising there while he was still in the attainment. With this attainment and the following one, however, he was not able to analyze the mental qualities present and absent there until after he had left the attainment. The difference here is related to the point made in AN IX.36 that all the attainments up through the dimension of nothingness are "perception-attainments." And that, "As far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them."
For a discussion of how insight can be developed in the context of jhana, see The Wings to Awakening, IIIF.

As for the Buddha remembering his spontaneous attainment of the first jhana as a child, I'd completely forgotten about that. But even so, I'd still hesitate to conclude from that alone that he discovered or developed the jhanas on his own before anyone else. He may have mastered them and utilized them in unique ways; but the fact that other contemplatives in his day, many of them senior to him, seem to have been practicing and attaining similar meditative states prior to, and independent of, the Buddha leads me to believe that they'd already been around for some time. I could be wrong about that, though.

SpinyNorman2

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the latter are all perception attainments that, while not directly related, depend upon holding a particular perception in mind (which is why they're identified by their objects) and can't be analyzed until after one has come out of that meditative state...

I think you could say that the rupa jhanas describe progressive absorption, while the arupa jhanas describe a progressive "opening out" of perception.

Spiny

Jason

The main difference, as I understand it, is that the latter are all perception attainments that, while not directly related, depend upon holding a particular perception in mind (which is why they're identified by their objects) and can't be analyzed until after one has come out of that meditative state...

I think you could say that the rupa jhanas describe progressive absorption, while the arupa jhanas describe a progressive "opening out" of perception.

Spiny

Yes, I quite like that.

newtech

-inmaterial attainments, or "arupa jhanas", in the suttas where never mentioned as "jhanas". There where only four jhanas. Inmaterial attainments where more like variations of the 4th jhana.

That's an interesting point. Only the first four are specifically called jhanas (i.e., first, second, third, and fourth), yet the last four are often included in places such as the Jhana Sutta along with the first four, suggesting that these are related in some way and considered jhanas (absorptions) in their own right. The main difference, as I understand it, is that the latter are all perception attainments that, while not directly related, depend upon holding a particular perception in mind (which is why they're identified by their objects) and can't be analyzed until after one has come out of that meditative state (e.g., see SN 14.11 and MN 121), whereas the first four are not only connected (two through four are attained by the dropping or fading of a particular aspect of the previous one), but levels of concentration that are less involved and lend themselves to investigation while still in them. As Thanissaro notes in his translation of MN 111:

Notice that, with each of the previous levels of attainment, Sariputta was able to ferret out the various mental qualities arising there while he was still in the attainment. With this attainment and the following one, however, he was not able to analyze the mental qualities present and absent there until after he had left the attainment. The difference here is related to the point made in AN IX.36 that all the attainments up through the dimension of nothingness are "perception-attainments." And that, "As far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them."
For a discussion of how insight can be developed in the context of jhana, see The Wings to Awakening, IIIF.

As for the Buddha remembering his spontaneous attainment of the first jhana as a child, I'd completely forgotten about that. But even so, I'd still hesitate to conclude from that alone that he discovered or developed the jhanas on his own before anyone else. He may have mastered them and utilized them in unique ways; but the fact that other contemplatives in his day, many of them senior to him, seem to have been practicing and attaining similar meditative states prior to, and independent of, the Buddha leads me to believe that they'd already been around for some time. I could be wrong about that, though.

Thank you Jason,
very interesting.

With metta.

misecmisc1

@jason/all: hi, i do not know much about what is a jhana and the various stages of jhana. i have studied yoga scriptures - so can someone help me in identifying any similarity between the below and jhanas - which could indirectly help in knowing whether jhana was previously known before Buddha.

So Yoga states - the stages are concentration (momentary concentration on breath) leading to meditation( large periods of continuous attention on breath - but still here there is an observer observing an observed object) leading to samadhi(here observer observing the observed merges into the object itself - so that there is just the object only - the mind is totally absorbed in breath here). Then to achieve what is beyond, it is said that breath also has to be left - then the state we reach is that of Turiya or Self-realization because as per Yoga, Self-realization is normally in day-to-day life not possible because Consciousness identifies itself with the thought patterns in the mind, so when there is no thought by transcending the breath, the Self comes shining forth, leading to Self-realization.

So can somebody can throw some light on the above being common to something experienced in jhana? Please suggest.

Spaceless

The first English translation of the 【 贤劫 经 】梵名 Bhadrakalpika Sutra, in which the Buddha recounts how the thousand Buddhas of this era will reach enlightenment. An extraordinary glimpse
www.amazon.de/gp/aw/d/0898001366/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

taiyaki

@jason/all: hi, i do not know much about what is a jhana and the various stages of jhana. i have studied yoga scriptures - so can someone help me in identifying any similarity between the below and jhanas - which could indirectly help in knowing whether jhana was previously known before Buddha.

So Yoga states - the stages are concentration (momentary concentration on breath) leading to meditation( large periods of continuous attention on breath - but still here there is an observer observing an observed object) leading to samadhi(here observer observing the observed merges into the object itself - so that there is just the object only - the mind is totally absorbed in breath here). Then to achieve what is beyond, it is said that breath also has to be left - then the state we reach is that of Turiya or Self-realization because as per Yoga, Self-realization is normally in day-to-day life not possible because Consciousness identifies itself with the thought patterns in the mind, so when there is no thought by transcending the breath, the Self comes shining forth, leading to Self-realization.

So can somebody can throw some light on the above being common to something experienced in jhana? Please suggest.

Self-Realization is the I-AM experience or realization. This is non dual presence/awareness.

For more information: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

Check out stages one and two.

This put shortly is the space between thoughts or non conceptual awareness/presence in the realm of non conceptual thought. In jhana it is the realm of infinite consciousness.
In Hinduism this is reified into a Subject or Atman. This can also be reified into oneness or a source or God.

Self-Realization is non enlightenment but it is a direct perception of the non dual reality.