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Zen Master vs. Tibetan Lama
zen_world
Veteran
The teachers, seventy-year-old Kalu Rinpoche of Tibet, a veteran of years of solitary retreat, and the Zen master Seung Sahn, the first Korean Zen master to teach in the United States, were to test each other's understanding of the Buddha's teachings for the benefit of the onlooking Western students. This was to be a high form of what was being called _Dharma_ combat (the clashing of great minds sharpened by years of study and meditation), and we were waiting with all the anticipation that such a historic encounter deserved. The two monks entered with swirling robes -- maroon and yellow for the Tibetan, austere grey and black for the Korean -- and were followed by retinues of younger monks and translators with shaven heads. They settled onto cushions in the familiar cross-legged positions, and the host made it clear that the younger Zen master was to begin. The Tibetan lama sat very still, fingering a wooden rosary (_mala_) with one hand while murmuring, _"Om mani padme hum"_ continuously under his breath.
The Zen master, who was already gaining renown for his method of hurling questions at his students until they were forced to admit their ignorance and then bellowing, "Keep that don't know mind!" at them, reached deep inside his robes and drew out an orange. "What is this?" he demanded of the lama. "What is this?" This was a typical opening question, and we could feel him ready to pounce on whatever response he was given.
The Tibetan sat quietly fingering his mala and made no move to respond.
"What is this?" the Zen master insisted, holding the orange up to the Tibetan's nose.
Kalu Rinpoche bent very slowly to the Tibetan monk near to him who was serving as the translator, and they whispered back and forth for several minutes. Finally the translator addressed the room: "Rinpoche says, 'What is the matter with him? Don't they have oranges where he comes from?"
The dialog progressed no further.
The Zen master, who was already gaining renown for his method of hurling questions at his students until they were forced to admit their ignorance and then bellowing, "Keep that don't know mind!" at them, reached deep inside his robes and drew out an orange. "What is this?" he demanded of the lama. "What is this?" This was a typical opening question, and we could feel him ready to pounce on whatever response he was given.
The Tibetan sat quietly fingering his mala and made no move to respond.
"What is this?" the Zen master insisted, holding the orange up to the Tibetan's nose.
Kalu Rinpoche bent very slowly to the Tibetan monk near to him who was serving as the translator, and they whispered back and forth for several minutes. Finally the translator addressed the room: "Rinpoche says, 'What is the matter with him? Don't they have oranges where he comes from?"
The dialog progressed no further.
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Comments
Instead of a Lama, if there was another zen master facing this zen master, he could have given the same response.
if you put two masters together, the one who opens his mouth first will loose:)
What is THIS! from a Zen perspective is a direct presentation of the dharma view. It assumes that there is no-self seeing an orange - just the orange and nothing else! Zen people might assume the Lama didn't get it, just as one of my Zen teachers could not understand what the fuss was about when a leading Vipassana teacher gave a talk at our Zendo - as clearly he had little insight! Having practiced long enough in both, I can see how the two traditions are different and the same, and insight is not limited to answering koans.
The Zen Master is asking you to do something with the object, to demonstrate its function, not assign a label to it. If an orange, you might peel it and take a bite. If a fan is handed over, you might fan yourself. Thus you have agreed to an exchange of understanding beyond words and the duel begins. From "What is this?" we then go to "What are you?"
Master Seung Sahn was well educated in the various schools of Buddhism. He could have sat there reciting sutras, I suppose, if that would have taught anyone anything. I suspect this was his way of pointing out the uselessness of trying to compare the two practices. For him, it was only important you practice whatever it is you do, completely and totally.
Seriously though, this zen master had a pretty unique teaching style. He would say things like "What is this"? Then he held up an orange. Then he would usually say something like "If you say it's an orange, wrong answer, I hit you 30 times. If you say it's not an orange, wrong again and I hit you 30 times! So what is it?! He was always asking questions like that.