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Death
Gui
Veteran
Comments
I'm interested, @Gui, in what your thoughts are on the arguments presented by this author on why if you don't believe in an afterlife (which afterlife apparently isn't important) than there must be something wrong with your thinking?
In particular, many skeptics want to believe the problem with the world is religion, and if only people would get rid of this mental illness, everyone would march into an enlightened future. Of course, every society that has embraced atheism has turned out to be just as bad. Maybe religion isn't the problem, after all. Maybe human nature is the problem.
Still, truth matters. Science has rules and all human minds are subject to the same flaws in our thinking, if we're not careful. But, beliefs are pretty irrelevant, over all. It's what we do with our beliefs that matters.
And of course there is the question of what truth might be.
Just noodling here ... it crossed my mind and jumped off my typing tongue.
But it's not as simple as it seems. The quest for truth can be as full of traps as the quest for meaning in life. Take the subject of death. Observation tells us when someone dies, that's it for this life, at least. So what happens to the person when they die? In the past, humanity had no concept of dna replication and cell division and evolution and the development of the brain and nervous system. Life to them from what they could observe was a miraculous spirit separate from the physical world that enters the body at birth, animates some things and allows them to move, and is usually lacking in other things like rocks. This model of an external spirit, atman, soul or whatever you want to call it continues to be handed down to us today, long after the belief is needed to explain why you walk around, trees grow but don't move around, and a rock just sits there.
But, a spirit that enters the body of a baby at birth must exit at death, so where does it go? Now we're back to belief. Since the world religions hold different, conflicting beliefs, a whole lot of people are obviously wrong. We want our beliefs to be the true ones, so we search for evidence to support them. Here's where it gets tricky. Every single belief claims to have found evidence to "prove" they are right. When examined, most of the claims turn out to not be true, exaggerated, or subject to other explanations. Wishful thinking is not evidence. What nobody has shown is compelling evidence.
This is what causes skeptics to get upset. Truth matters. Some beliefs are a matter of faith. Some are a matter of observation. Some are a matter of trust in experts. Some beliefs cannot be proved or disproved, and attempts to do so are doomed to failure. Like beliefs in what happens to the self when the body is gone.
There is a wonderful story of Master Seung Sahn, where he popped into a room full of first time students, each eager to learn and wanting to impress the Zen Master.
"Hello!" he called out. "Does anyone have a question for me?" This was how he usually walked into a room. And the students were of course too bashful to ask any questions.
"Well then," he said. "I have a question for you. Where do you go to, when you die?"
The students all sat there on their cushions silently, none of them able to think of a Zen answer that would impress the great Master or willing to step up from the others.
"All right," he finally said, pointing to one student, "you ask me the same question."
"Master Seung," the man echoed, "where do you go to, when you die?"
"To the cemetary!" Master Seung exclaimed, grinning, and then laughing along with the students. Thus the students learned, in Zen the obvious answer is the correct answer to give and that's all there was to it. It is our busy minds that insist on knowing everything and being correct all the time. What answer can you give to the question? Have you died before? Then how should you know?
- I don't know.
I have read this book, Wanting Enlightenment is a Big Mistake. It's one of my favorites.
Dear Cinorjer, this discussion may very possibly be like many others here. We agree in the relative. We agree in the absolute. We are not face to face over a cup of tea so we might not be speaking to each other at the same time regarding the same realm.
Namaste
unknowing mind is so powerful but it has to be used wisely...
One of the big critisicm I have for zen Buddhism is that people can easily fall in the trap that thats all there is without truly really realizing it.
All these zen masters write books about what enlightenment is and they describe all these non dual awareness, suchness, unknowing mind etc. But these are the fruits of their practice. However, many students start to think that they have to act like an enlightened person and they become cheap imitation of an enlightened person. They repeat nonsensical words like 'there is no me', 'one should have no anger', 'things are just be' etc.
Without having the true realizations, they just put an act and they forget to make an honest inquiry into the existence and to the self.
Unknowing mind when applied wrong, it gives sloppy attitude...They start to think all their problems ended and there is no reason to investigate. This is fatal...
There is a difference between a person who is free falling and a person who really can fly.
If you free fall, everything look effortless and beautiful in the moment until you hit the ground. Flying takes effort...Birds use hundreds of muscles to stay in the air, it is not that easy.
I would suggest do not keep the unknowing mind until you are ready for it...
When time comes, then you really realize, you really don't know shit...and that is the right time to keep an unknowing mind...Or else, please investigate.
Forget about the scietific skeptics...Their world runs around the material proofes. In spiritual journey, things are subjective...You can not validate it with material tools.
See, when numerous yogis describe the stages of death and dissolution processes, or bardos, these are things that cannot be validated by science. If you are hard core skeptic than you are wasting your time trying to proove their claims. But if you are a healthy skeptic, your approach is to try first, experience yourself, and then decide...
Gone, Gone, Gone beyond, gone utterly beyond. Oh, what an Awakening!