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Nobody is enlightened in the mahayana school bcos they are all postponing

jlljll Veteran
edited January 2012 in Philosophy
Nobody is enlightened in the mahayana school bcos they are all postponing
their enlightenment until all sentient beings are liberated.
Comments?

Comments

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I guess, what does it mean to be enlightened? Because some of them sure come across as being that way.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited January 2012
    Enlightened life is not incompatible with the bodhisattva vows.
    At the other hand; enlightened life can be lived without them very well.
    Imho.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    Because some of them sure come across as being that way.
    They do? How does one come across enlightened?

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    If anyone could 'postpone' enlightenment, how could that possibly be enlightenment?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Nobody is enlightened in the mahayana school bcos they are all postponing
    their enlightenment until all sentient beings are liberated.
    Could you remind us about the teaching you refer to here, that enlightenment is to be postponed until all sentient beings are liberated?

    Bodhisattvas are enlightened beings that vow to be reborn until all beings are liberated. Maybe what it means is that final Buddhahood is postponed until the goal is met...?

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Nope, full Buddhahood is attained for the sake of sentient beings.

    Also once one attains full perfection then there is only full perfection because reality is a projection from ones mind.

    If one were to change everyone externally, then enlightenment would be impossible. But because one changes their subjectivity, enlightenment is possible.

    Also everything is already in utter liberation. Thus the bodhisattva attained spiritual ocd or bodhicitta so that everything is used for the energy for right effort. The focus is on how can I attain enlightenment so quickly so that I can help others to the maximum potential.

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    I do recall learning that resting always in Nirvana is postponed.

    The Bodhisattva moves in samsara and nirvana, thus never truly abiding in. Seeing the emptiness of both, the Bodhisattva can work with the infinite potentiality/expression of the karmic manifestations. With right view and effort full buddhahood or the full manifestation of all of the buddha's qualities are nurtured.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Who believes this? Milarepa is traditionally believed to have become enlightened as well as Padmasambava...

    Mahayana puts off 'peaceful nirvana'. Peaceful nirvana (in M tradition) is an arhat. Whereas a mahayanist by putting of peaceful nirvana is attempting to free all sentient beings as buddha did when he was a bodhisattva.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    It in a way is going beyond the Arhat. Total cessation isn't the goal, but it happens.

    Whatever can be used to help others. Be it nirvana or samsara. All of it is used in the fuel to help others.

    The Arhat naturally becomes a Bodhisattva.

    What else is there to do but teach after total cessation of suffering? Some abide and don't teach. But I suppose that is up to ones own personal choice.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited January 2012
    In mahayana belief there are two types of obscurations. One is the defilement of conflicting emotions: ignorance pride anger desire and jealousy. The second is/are: cognitive/intellectual obscurations. Latent tendencies. Obscuration of dualistic perception.
    When the first obscuration is lifted samsara is overcome. The second results in gaining the accurate knowledge and realization of truth.

    The third is to develope abs of steel and flex before a mirror. :)
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Because some of them sure come across as being that way.
    They do? How does one come across enlightened?

    As kind and compassionate and wise. On top of that these qualities radiate off of some masters and fill the room in a tangible, palpable way.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    False, Bodhisattvas seek to help all beings from the state of suffering as quickly as possible and so the only way they can do this is to become a Buddha, as a Buddha they will be completly free from all mental obstructions and be able to know the best way to help others and eminate countless forms to do so.

    King like Bodhichitta is that which wishes to become a Buddha to free all beings from suffering, a Bodhisattva is an intermediate state on the Mahayana path the Goal is always toward Buddhahood.
  • DharmaFieldDharmaField
    My experience is that each School is pretty convinced that they are superior to the others, and monastics think they are better than lay people and vice versa. Hindus think that Buddhism was absorbed as their own, Christians thinks it is a form of heresy, Islam thinks we bow down to false idols and secularists think all religions are delusional. Bodhisattva is a mythical being, as is a Buddha, I am sure the person who was the Buddha had never heard of either of them. This seems to me part of the reality of life, it does add value to take much interest in such comparisons - but that does not mean abdicate ones judgement as not all schools are the same. Just don't expect to be able to judge them by their own rhetoric, as they all sincerely believe they are the best.

    My advice is to shop around and spend more than a short time before making a judgement and be aware that in many poor countries, rich outsiders are regarded as fair game.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Because some of them sure come across as being that way.
    They do? How does one come across enlightened?
    As kind and compassionate and wise. On top of that these qualities radiate off of some masters and fill the room in a tangible, palpable way.
    You're tremendously fortunate to have met teachers like this, person. I've only heard about them, never seen one.

  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Because some of them sure come across as being that way.
    They do? How does one come across enlightened?
    As kind and compassionate and wise. On top of that these qualities radiate off of some masters and fill the room in a tangible, palpable way.
    You're tremendously fortunate to have met teachers like this, person. I've only heard about them, never seen one.

    Some of them naturally radiate it is a sign of great accomplishment, Being in their presence is like feeling a warm summer sun on your skin and in you heart :)

  • TheFoundTheFound
    lol u silly goose ..
    they dont play because they think they can win,
    they are winning the whole time by playing
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited January 2012
    Nobody is enlightened in the mahayana school bcos they are all postponing
    their enlightenment until all sentient beings are liberated.
    Comments?
    Yes.

    It's not a race to see who gets enlightened first. The Buddha, after his great awakening, spent the rest of his life struggling to pound the Dharma into a bunch of followers that the sutras describe as stubborn, opinionated, jealous and occasionally brilliant. He didn't just sit around basking in his enlightenment and being admired for his accomplishment. He rolled up his sleeves and created the Sangha. His great compassion led him to a life of helping others.

    As Mahayana Buddhists, we don't strive to be enlightened. We strive to be Buddhas.

    I hope this helped.
  • SpacelessSpaceless
    They had already enlightened and “driven“ by liberative vow for sentient beings on path to supremeness. The unconditional compassion to liberate suffering beings ;)
  • Tendzin9198Tendzin9198
    edited February 2012
    Sambodhi or enlightenment looks more toward the cognitive aspect of the revulsion on experience. This is all well as far as it goes, and is indeed the basis of Hinayana and Mahayana practices, in the Lankavatara Sutra the teaching sees that whole of the Buddhist life is not merely seeing into the truth but living it! There should be no dualism in one’s life of seeing and living with no hiatus between them, except in language.

    To accomplish this one must free the mind from the defilements
    1. False Judgement –
    a. Cause - not perceiving things as they really are. Corrected by understanding cause and effect, and true reality and existence.
    2. Irrational attachment
    a. Cause – attachment to this life, and all things objects within it. The sense of self and I the root of attachment processes.
    b.
    The “Garba” (meaning womb or better or something interiorly hidden) is the seed of Tathagatahood from which a fully-enlightened being grows up. This is originally pure and immaculate, and what we are attempting to accomplish is to bring it back to it’s natural and free state freed from attachments.

    If you have ever polished stones you will know what this is like. You remove, rub, wash and clean the stone until its true inner beauty and perfection shows through. With our eyes we can appreciate how the light catches its sparkle and we are drawn quite naturally to such objects. Our mind is like such a stone. It is rough and there is little of its true nature showing through, it is covered by the defilements of aeons of mistaken views, wrong actions, karmic problems and such. By practicing the teachings and applying them in daily life we begin to remove and burn away this old self and our true inner light shines through. On then can see the “garba” as if you were holding a seed in your hand. So Mahayana practitioners are just busy polishing so that perfection will be attained, through right view, right speech, right action etc. :-). The ultimate goal is not simply for the self to be enlightened but to help to free all sentient beings from their suffering through the previous mentioned actions. If there were no teachers who remained then how would students learn? So it makes good sense that those who know how teach those who have not yet learned. After all, it is not the destination that is most important (everyone is born and then dies) but it is the journey that counts the most. x
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